The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Star Trek > Star Trek Into Darkness

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-22-2013, 10:19 PM   #726
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,427
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Khan motivations' or lack thereof were a serious problem.

I also found the logic ridiculous. A 23rd century admiral unfreezes a 21st century genius to make advanced weaponry for him? No one else see the logical issues with that?

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #727
georgec
Not a hero
 
georgec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Belize
Posts: 3,602
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

I think the slightly below expectations box office is a potential indicator that the mystery marketing of Cumberbatch didn't grab people like they expected it to grab them.

Quite frankly all the trailers really conveyed was that Cumberbatch was pissed and wanted revenge. I think by playing the Khan-specific motivations and surrounding details (without giving much away) would have been better.

__________________
Superman with Batman - Whatever It Is... - Countdown until midnight release on March 25, 2016 - updated!

A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat
around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world hadn't ended.
georgec is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 10:39 PM   #728
antsman41
Darkness... yeah.
 
antsman41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 6,023
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

I feel they should have let him be this bad ass and mysterious 'John Harrison' and become this series Kahn but with his actions and not his name.

__________________
Gliding o'er all, through all... through nature, time, & space. As a ship on the waters advancing, the voyage of the soul... not life alone. Death, many deaths, I'll sing.

I • N • T • E • R • S • T • E • L • L • A • R
antsman41 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 10:49 PM   #729
LostSon88
Side-Kick
 
LostSon88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: BAY AREA!!!!
Posts: 8,305
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Then people would've been complaining that he was a cheap Khan wannabe.

It will never end.

__________________
My life is like school on a Sunday...no class.
LostSon88 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #730
DKDetective
"He'll be a god to them."
 
DKDetective's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,133
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Khan motivations' or lack thereof were a serious problem.

I also found the logic ridiculous. A 23rd century admiral unfreezes a 21st century genius to make advanced weaponry for him? No one else see the logical issues with that?
Oh I definitely agree on that point. As they explained it, they wanted Khan's savagery and brutality and way of thinking. That is of little use in terms of weapon and ship design. It would have made sense if they wanted him for his tactics and strategy for the waging of war, but weapon design, not so much.

__________________
Avatar by Kane52630
DKDetective is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:07 PM   #731
The Caped Knight
Shield Avenger
 
The Caped Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 28,155
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by antsman41 View Post
I'm torn; all the characters/actors were great, the comedy was solid, action was good to ok but it was too messy of a plot, they derailed/lost Kahn's motive, and got too undermining in the end.

The first was overall more solid and why I got on board this train. Just wish they grew upon their new timeline and not just retread the old. Should I get ready to search for Spock again, in the film?
I think your over reacting, I watched WOK recently and I watched Into Darkness for the third time recently and while their are some similarities in the film. Their both different.

Wrath of Khan is a direct sequel to the original tv series episode "Space Speed" and the events that unfolded in the episode as a result of Kirk discovering the "SS Botany Bay and then sentencing Khan and his followers to exile on an uncolonized world, Ceti Alpha V that after six month a cataclysm on Ceti Alpha VI shifted the system's orbits, causing massive ecological devastation on Ceti Alpha V. Khan's ingenuity and the meager shelter of the cargo containers kept his people alive while most of the indigenous life perished. The rugged Ceti eels survived, however, and as the only hosts available for their young, Khan's people were beset by the creatures. Over time, Khan lost twenty of his people to the slow, maddening death caused by the eels, including his "beloved wife."

In WOK, Khan swears vengeance against Kirk for abandoning him on that planet and uses "Project Genesis" as a means to lure Kirk to come to him. He even controls Terrell and Chekov with those eels, Terrell tries to fight against it and ends up killing himself, Chekov manages to fight it off long enough for Kirk to zap the eel. Then Khan leaves him on the planet and kirk screams "KHAN"s name in frustration but also as a ploy to throw Khan off until he can signal to Spock he's ready to return to the enterprise.

A space battle occurs between Khan and kirk in their respective ships, Kirk manages to out trick Khan and gains the upper hand. But Khan activates the Genesis Trooped as a last ditch effort to destroy Kirk before he dies.

The Enterprise has taken heavy damage and Spock realizes that in order to survive they needed "Wrap Speed" he sacrificed himself to repair the damage to the Enterprise's engines which allowed the starship to escape at warp seconds before the Genesis Device detonated, destroying the Reliant and Khan with it.


Into Darkness is a totally different tale that has some similar themes and events from WOK but overall it's not the same film at all.

The Caped Knight is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:14 PM   #732
The Caped Knight
Shield Avenger
 
The Caped Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 28,155
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Khan motivations' or lack thereof were a serious problem.
His motivations were pretty darn clear. He wanted to avenge his crew because he thought Marcus had killed them and that's why he retaliated against Starfleet. Then when he discovered they were alive he used Kirk and the opportunity he needed to board the USS Vengance to kill Marcus and force Spock to return his crew to him in exchange for Kirk and comrades

The Caped Knight is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:18 PM   #733
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,427
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Caped Knight View Post
His motivations were pretty darn clear. He wanted to avenge his crew because he thought Marcus had killed them and that's why he retaliated against Starfleet. Then when he discovered they were alive he used Kirk and the opportunity he needed to board the USS Vengance to kill Marcus and force Spock to return his crew to him in exchange for Kirk and comrades
And then he decides to try to waste the Enterprise.

Khan's end goal, everything about him is vague at best.

He seems like a wounded animal throughout most of the movie.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:25 PM   #734
The Caped Knight
Shield Avenger
 
The Caped Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: New York City
Posts: 28,155
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
And then he decides to try to waste the Enterprise.

Khan's end goal, everything about him is vague at best.

He seems like a wounded animal throughout most of the movie.
He attempts to destroy the enterprise as a means to ensure that Kirk and his crew don't stop him from achieving his goal of domination with the help of his crew which he assumed was on board the Vengeance still in their torpedoes .

Were you even paying attention to the film or were you set in your ways to ignore facts simply because of the similarities to WOK found in ID ? I've seen this film a total of three times now and I fully understood and enjoyed the film as it's own rather than focus on the WOK connections.

The Caped Knight is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:43 PM   #735
terry78
Heads up, heathen monkeys
 
terry78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 60,088
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Well, he did imply that what Spock assumed he and his crew were going to do once they were brought back was pretty much on the money. So he did plan on going ahead and exterminating lesser beings. Meaning pretty much everyone else.

__________________
The only thing funnier than watching stupid people argue is watching smart people argue.
-----------
Who the **** makes a movie and while planning it is like, "you know what this needs...is some Greg Kinnear."
terry78 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 12:08 AM   #736
Black Dynamite
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 159
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

once khan got his crew his motives were the same as space seed. use a star ship to conquer lesser life forms. into darkness just told it in a different way.

Black Dynamite is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 12:12 AM   #737
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,427
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Caped Knight View Post
He attempts to destroy the enterprise as a means to ensure that Kirk and his crew don't stop him from achieving his goal of domination with the help of his crew which he assumed was on board the Vengeance still in their torpedoes .

Were you even paying attention to the film or were you set in your ways to ignore facts simply because of the similarities to WOK found in ID ? I've seen this film a total of three times now and I fully understood and enjoyed the film as it's own rather than focus on the WOK connections.
Would you believe I never saw Wrath of Khan? Well, not in its entirety anyway.

I just felt they rushed through the part about Khan (and by proxy the other augments) being evil world conquerers.

Could maybe have lingered on that point for a bit.

Guess I could watch it twice more.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:17 AM   #738
dark_b
Side-Kick
 
dark_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44,024
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKDetective View Post
I think it would have been better for the film's marketing and box office if they had promoted the reveal. Trailers and TV spots could have showcased the idea
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
that Harrison is Khan but Kirk and the crew don't realize the importance/danger of that whereas the audience does.
did you just use a spoiler to writte that Harrison is Khan on may 22 1 week after the movie was realesed?

dark_b is online now  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:18 AM   #739
dark_b
Side-Kick
 
dark_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 44,024
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

''from Trek writer/producer Damon Lindelof:
I do think what's cool about Trek is it's not scifi fantasy. We view it as hardcore scifi. So you want there to be some sort of technological explanation behind everything.
So, we can all agree that we’re in a safe space here, and that Lindelof is inviting this kind of discussion. Right? Good.''


http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/22/b...into-darkness/


Lindelof is .............ohhhh Lindelof. Prometheus you son of a b....


Last edited by dark_b; 05-23-2013 at 03:26 AM.
dark_b is online now  
Old 05-23-2013, 03:44 AM   #740
georgec
Not a hero
 
georgec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Belize
Posts: 3,602
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Nothing says hard-core sci-fi like popcorn entertainment.

And hey, I'm not complaining about the style. It's fun and it works. But this incarnation isn't hardcore sci-fi. It's action/adventure set in space. Again, nothing wrong with it. But let's not fool ourselves, eh, Damon?

__________________
Superman with Batman - Whatever It Is... - Countdown until midnight release on March 25, 2016 - updated!

A hero can be anyone. Even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat
around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world hadn't ended.
georgec is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:47 AM   #741
DKDetective
"He'll be a god to them."
 
DKDetective's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,133
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_b View Post
did you just use a spoiler to writte that Harrison is Khan on may 22 1 week after the movie was realesed?
Hey, just trying to be careful, not everyone has a chance to see the movie opening weekend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dark_b View Post
''from Trek writer/producer Damon Lindelof:
I do think what's cool about Trek is it's not scifi fantasy. We view it as hardcore scifi. So you want there to be some sort of technological explanation behind everything.
So, we can all agree that we’re in a safe space here, and that Lindelof is inviting this kind of discussion. Right? Good.''


http://badassdigest.com/2013/05/22/b...into-darkness/


Lindelof is .............ohhhh Lindelof. Prometheus you son of a b....
That is the one of most laughable things I have ever read. Then how come they have re-conceived Kirk as a mythic hero following a Campbellian arc? Why all the talk of destinies and the implications of a timeline trying to fix itself? Where is the in-depth examination of speculative technologies that is the basis of hard science fiction or the social commentary and philosophical musings that are the basis of soft/social science fiction? What an idiot.

__________________
Avatar by Kane52630
DKDetective is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:35 AM   #742
FeedOnATreeFrog
A Metal Gear reference
 
FeedOnATreeFrog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,038
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKDetective View Post
That is the one of most laughable things I have ever read. Then how come they have re-conceived Kirk as a mythic hero following a Campbellian arc? Why all the talk of destinies and the implications of a timeline trying to fix itself? Where is the in-depth examination of speculative technologies that is the basis of hard science fiction or the social commentary and philosophical musings that are the basis of soft/social science fiction? What an idiot.
Even in real-life, people believe in destiny. Star Trek isn't saying destiny is real. It's a philosophical thing, not a science/fantasy thing.

FeedOnATreeFrog is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 06:40 AM   #743
DKDetective
"He'll be a god to them."
 
DKDetective's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,133
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
Even in real-life, people believe in destiny. Star Trek isn't saying destiny is real. It's a philosophical thing, not a science/fantasy thing.
Uh, not in Trek. Humans of the 23rd/24th Century are portrayed as atheist, humanists. Hence all storylines involving the exposing of false Gods who are exploiting less advanced cultures.

__________________
Avatar by Kane52630
DKDetective is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 07:27 AM   #744
jonathancrane
I love Marvel, DC & EC!
 
jonathancrane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Caverns in Arkham Island
Posts: 6,804
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKDetective View Post
Uh, not in Trek. Humans of the 23rd/24th Century are portrayed as atheist, humanists. Hence all storylines involving the exposing of false Gods who are exploiting less advanced cultures.
Correct. However, there is a considerable amount of religious behavior exhibited by characters in the series; the linked website provides a nice list of some of the moments that I had not considered.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...s/religion.htm

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Aaron
"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Johns
“At DC, we really see film and TV as separate worlds."
jonathancrane is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 08:09 AM   #745
DKDetective
"He'll be a god to them."
 
DKDetective's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 3,133
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathancrane View Post
Correct. However, there is a considerable amount of religious behavior exhibited by characters in the series; the linked website provides a nice list of some of the moments that I had not considered.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in...s/religion.htm
True, like any long running series, Trek is never perfectly consistent. Many of the appearances of religion are from TOS so one might argue that they are a sign of the times and that later iterations may more accurately represent Robbenberry's initial vision.

__________________
Avatar by Kane52630
DKDetective is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 09:46 AM   #746
roach
I am the night
 
roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Under your Refrigerator
Posts: 38,805
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Khan motivations' or lack thereof were a serious problem.

I also found the logic ridiculous. A 23rd century admiral unfreezes a 21st century genius to make advanced weaponry for him? No one else see the logical issues with that?
the guy was Cap and Tony Stark rolled up in one...get him caught up on technology and watch what he can do.

It makes perfect sense to me. Admiral Marcus grew up in peace time, probably didn't even know a person that had been in a war. How can that hope to defeat the Klingons...a race bred for war?

A lot of our modern military tactics have been taken from Alexander The Great, Sun Tzu, Shaka Zulu and warfighting in WW2.

__________________
There seems to be a grave misunderstanding in today’s protest-hungry world of entertainment fans into how far their opinion should really matter. You don’t like a story? That’s fine – don’t read a story. Former Marvel editor Tom Brennan
roach is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:41 AM   #747
Cannikin
Side-Kick
 
Cannikin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 372
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

This storyline makes it seem as if humanity has dumbed itself down to the point where they can no longer defend themselves against aggressors. You don't maintain a utopian society by dropping your guard and hoping for the best. If the ST:ENT timeline is considered canon, there were numerous small conflicts with new races on an ongoing basis, plus there was the 22nd century Earth-Romulan war that was part of TOS history. This version of the Federation seems as fragile and delicate as the new Enterprise's warp core.

In TOS, they were prepared to go to war with the Klingons at any time, and almost did but were stopped as it began by the Organians. I guess there won't be an Organian peace treaty in this timeline (because of Eric Bana).

__________________
Whatever! Just don't tell anyone I'm Batman, or I'll kill you with my superpowers.
Cannikin is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 11:44 AM   #748
terry78
Heads up, heathen monkeys
 
terry78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Northwest Indiana
Posts: 60,088
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

Well, this Trek is taking place before TOS even starts I assume. They started out pretty idealistic, as Scotty showcased with his "thought we were explorers" line.

__________________
The only thing funnier than watching stupid people argue is watching smart people argue.
-----------
Who the **** makes a movie and while planning it is like, "you know what this needs...is some Greg Kinnear."
terry78 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 12:03 PM   #749
Pink Ranger
TV Poster, Radio Face
 
Pink Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 21,586
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

It's possible that Starfleet still has a militaristic side, but maybe according to Marcus' twisted logic, Starfleet needs more. Like Starfleet is like the UN peacekeepers, but Marcus feels the Federation needs Vikings.

__________________
Notice to all Hype members: Put down your phone and/or game controller right now and pick up a copy of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon. A must-read for anybody who visits this website.
Pink Ranger is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 01:40 PM   #750
Destructus86
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,580
Default Re: Star Trek Into Darkness - Part 5

For some reason a lot of the people in my office (mainly the older crowd) were confused by the trailer...

I am not sure how the trailer is confusing, but then i'm pretty into geeky things so maybe I have understanding they didn't have that made it clear to me?

__________________
Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Destructus86 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:25 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.