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Old 05-15-2013, 02:33 PM   #251
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

I also believe that they could have handled the pit symbolism more impressively and put real weight to it if they never made Bane have Bruce shipped to the middle east but held captive under Wayne Tower or the Bat cave itself. I believe Bane could have achieved and even better version of hope and despair and even added more to his character as well as to show us how everything hits even closer to home for Bruce. Imagine how much more dread he would feel being so close to the action, immobilized and not being able to do anything but see and listen to the terror. See I didn't care if Bruce died in that pit because it was only of direct significance to Bane and not Bruce and being closer to the torment Gotham was suffering would have had more impact. We needed a more personal touch to really feel emotionally connected.

I would have Bane hate Bruce as a man personally because he is a representation of everything he was denied from birth and he views his symbol (batman) as hypocritical (this elite uses this wealth to exact his own version of justice while ignoring the real criminal elite which to Bane is the problem) and poisonous to Gotham's soul due to this. He would want to cleanse Gotham's soul of this poison (his reason for nuking them) and he would also view Gotham as a giant metaphor of the pit (the elite represent those in power who held him captive and the oppressed he views as himself whose souls were tortured in an inescapable hell controlled by them). It will also allow him to rest in peace because if he frees Gotham's oppressed souls he finally frees himself mentally from the pit in his twisted mind. See the only reason he wants to nuke Gotham is because of his personal hate for Bruce's life and his hypocritical symbol which he wants to believe is poisonous but other than that he believes in his revolution. So basically he is a twisted complicated villain whose captivity in hell has had an interesting effect on his motivations which also leads directly back to Bruce/Batman/Gotham without following Talia just wanting revenge and fulfilling Ra's Al Ghul's destiny.

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Old 05-15-2013, 02:51 PM   #252
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^I don't agree with your first paragraph. The pit scenes are what kept me still engaged in the film during the second act. But I do agree with your second paragraph. I would have liked some more parallels for Bruce and Bane. Which is another reason I hate that they had to cut out the origin scene of Bane training like Bruce did in BB.

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Old 05-15-2013, 02:57 PM   #253
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

As much as I enjoyed the Indian scenery, the pit scene need not have taken place there. Bane had an underground lair in Gotham; it seemed incredible that he would fly the crippled celebrity Bruce Wayne out of the USA and to the other side of the world in order to put him in a different underground lair. I accept that the intention was to link in with the Talia backstory, but that remains by far the movie's weakest element, and the whole thing should have been dropped.

It would have seemed more satisfactory for Bruce to witness Gotham's ruin from Gotham, as well. The motif of a TV in a remote third-world cavern permanently tuned into "Eye on Gotham" or whatever was implausible. Also, had the dungeon been beneath Gotham, we could have had a good escape sequence with Bruce using just his wits and body to get through the sewers back to the cave. I would have loved to see that.

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Old 05-15-2013, 03:13 PM   #254
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

The pit stuff is my favorite aspect of the whole movie. Replace that with something else, I probably wouldn't love the film nearly as much.

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Old 05-15-2013, 03:27 PM   #255
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

I'm not necessarily saying it should be replaced, just moved.

Edit: Unless you are referring specifically to the Talia-stuff, in which case we must agree to disagree.

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Old 05-15-2013, 03:53 PM   #256
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If the answer is 'that's what real terrorists do' then that's the problem. Real terrorists have laughably irrational reasons to mount attacks on the west. That does not a good movie and villain make. A good villain should have conviction and motivation that makes sense to himself. If he/she does indeed have pathetic as their character, then make it cinematically interesting. Talia is neither. I don't think Talia's league's motto is neither consistent with Ras nor compelling and interesting enough within the story being told.
Exactly. I've been saying that since July.

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Old 05-15-2013, 03:59 PM   #257
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The pit stuff is my favorite aspect of the whole movie. Replace that with something else, I probably wouldn't love the film nearly as much.
Not replace but imitate it using the Wayne Tower or Wayne mansion. This way the pit can really feel like something mythological and leave more time for flashbacks of Bane's back story and time in the pit. He could still talk about this pit that men are thrown in to suffer and die....and tell him he would have taken him there but he prefers to further enhance his agony by creating his own version of the pit using his personal representations of hope and also to keep him close to the terror in Gotham. Hell you could even strip him of his costume and make the police officers trapped in bane's lair be forced to keep him alive not knowing his secret identity. To taint Bat's symbol after the revelation of Dent in Gordon's speech I would have Bane's mercs take turn in wearing the costume (crushing all hope in believers and assuring the non-believers that they were right about not trusting) while they do their work in Gotham to further mock him and make him feel like his decision to become batman was a bad idea. Wouldn't that present a really intriguing scenario?

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:09 PM   #258
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As much as I enjoyed the Indian scenery, the pit scene need not have taken place there. Bane had an underground lair in Gotham; it seemed incredible that he would fly the crippled celebrity Bruce Wayne out of the USA and to the other side of the world in order to put him in a different underground lair. I accept that the intention was to link in with the Talia backstory, but that remains by far the movie's weakest element, and the whole thing should have been dropped.

It would have seemed more satisfactory for Bruce to witness Gotham's ruin from Gotham, as well. The motif of a TV in a remote third-world cavern permanently tuned into "Eye on Gotham" or whatever was implausible. Also, had the dungeon been beneath Gotham, we could have had a good escape sequence with Bruce using just his wits and body to get through the sewers back to the cave. I would have loved to see that.
Would have kept Talia only to secure Bane's escape from hell and to find out where the reactor was and gain control of Wayne Enterprises but I guess other ways could have been taken. Nonetheless her reveal would take place right after Gotham is under siege when paying Bruce a visit in Bane's lair.

This is where Blake would come in handy knowing Bruce's identity. He could have proven a worthy successor if he somehow cleverly got Bruce out of such a calamity.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:23 PM   #259
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Not replace but imitate it using the Wayne Tower or Wayne mansion. This way the pit can really feel like something mythological and leave more time for flashbacks of Bane's back story and time in the pit. He could still talk about this pit that men are thrown in to suffer and die....and tell him he would have taken him there but he prefers to further enhance his agony by creating his own version of the pit using his personal representations of hope and also to keep him close to the terror in Gotham. Hell you could even strip him of his costume and make the police officers trapped in bane's lair be forced to keep him alive not knowing his secret identity. To taint Bat's symbol after the revelation of Dent in Gordon's speech I would have Bane's mercs take turn in wearing the costume (crushing all hope in believers and assuring the non-believers that they were right about not trusting) while they do their work in Gotham to further mock him and make him feel like his decision to become batman was a bad idea. Wouldn't that present a really intriguing scenario?
I don't know man- This whole thing just misses something for me, no offense. The pit in the movie had this exotic quality that felt appropriate for the tone and story. A bit of that Lawrence of Arabia flavor. Bruce being so far from home, out in the middle of the desert really lent the movie an epic quality.

Plus, it just makes sense. If you're going to state that there's a prison known as "hell on Earth", why just made an imitation of the prison? We see right from the start of the movie that Bane has access to plane. If he's able to extract someone from a CIA plane and then destroy the plane in midair, I don't see how transporting someone out of the country is such a challenge. If the guy can establish an underground army beneath the streets of Gotham, transporting one man without alerting anyone really is not that big of an issue.

Edit: Honestly, I was so invested in the pit aspect of the movie that I'd LOVE for this still from the Oscar campaign to be the cover for TDKR in the Collector's Edition set:


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Old 05-15-2013, 04:35 PM   #260
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This is where Blake would come in handy knowing Bruce's identity. He could have proven a worthy successor if he somehow cleverly got Bruce out of such a calamity.
I would actually hate that. I liked that Bruce got out of the pit on his own. It's his own physical and emotional challenge that he has to overcome. Some already had issues with someone else ending Bane, imagine the uproar if he can't even get out of the pit by himself and the only reason he got out was because of Blake.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:36 PM   #261
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Does he have access to an American airfield, too?

If you wanted to retain the epic quality, you could have kept Ra's appearance to Bruce, and used the Indian scenery as part of a dream sequence. The trip around the world at that point of the story was frankly bizarre to me. Even if it did have to happen, why did Bane have to make the presumably week-long round trip, too? Who did he leave in charge of Gotham? It's just too silly.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:43 PM   #262
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I don't know man- This whole thing just misses something for me, no offense. The pit in the movie had this exotic quality that felt appropriate for the tone and story. A bit of that Lawrence of Arabia flavor. Bruce being so far from home, out in the middle of the desert really lent the movie an epic quality.

Plus, it just makes sense. If you're going to state that there's a prison known as "hell on Earth", why just made an imitation of the prison? We see right from the start of the movie that Bane has access to plane. If he's able to extract someone from a CIA plane and then destroy the plane in midair, I don't see how transporting someone out of the country is such a challenge. If the guy can establish an underground army beneath the streets of Gotham, transporting one man without alerting anyone really is not that big of an issue.
None taken because after all it's just opinions and discussion Not saying he'll just talk about it. We'll get to witness this hell on earth with Bane though during his character development and just to show Bruce how much he despises him he states that this hell is not enough (because he has witnessed it and Bruce deserves something worse) and he needs to upgrade it. Not saying Bane would have problems with getting him there though. For me it would have been cool for Bane to visit Bruce and rub it in his face daily though

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:49 PM   #263
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Does he have access to an American airfield, too?
Why not? They had to be keeping the plane somewhere after they brought Pavel into the country. The plane most likely belongs to "Miranda Tate", seeing how she mentioned it to Bruce. Surely there's got to be a private airfield somewhere that they're keeping it.

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If you wanted to retain the epic quality, you could have kept Ra's appearance to Bruce, and used the Indian scenery as part of a dream sequence. The trip around the world at that point of the story was frankly bizarre to me.
I just like what we saw in the movie better than the alternatives being presented here. To me, you build the movie around that whole pit metaphor, not the otherway around. It was so crucial. If you think they could have done a better job building around it, fair enough, but to me it is the touchstone of the film.

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Even if it did have to happen, why did Bane have to make the presumably week-long round trip, too? Who did he leave in charge of Gotham? It's just too silly.
Because that was the most important part of the plan at that point, or perhaps to establish protocol for the other prisoners since they all fear Bane (don't let him die, force him to watch the TV, etc.) They weren't setting everything into motion with Pavel/the reactor/the stadium until Bane got back anyway. While Bane was gone, Barsad could have kept an eye on things while quietly reporting to Tate.

I know it seems like I'm going out of my way to rationalize, but to me it's not too far out of bounds. I never really questioned this stuff too much when watching the film.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:51 PM   #264
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Why not? They had to be keeping the plane somewhere after they brought Pavel into the country.
That was all Dagget- Bruce and Alfred said as much.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:59 PM   #265
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I would actually hate that. I liked that Bruce got out of the pit on his own. It's his own physical and emotional challenge that he has to overcome. Some already had issues with someone else ending Bane, imagine the uproar if he can't even get out of the pit by himself and the only reason he got out was because of Blake.
Bruce would still over come the physical and emotional challenge on his own but Blake will only assist in the actual escape. it's not like he didn't ask them for they're help after right? I might have liked the ledge jump if a child didn't make it. Don't think this is would be as uproar worthy as Bane's death. I didn't have a problem with her killing him but it's how it happened followed by the line.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:59 PM   #266
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That was all Dagget- Bruce and Alfred said as much.
I didn't necessarily take that literally. It could be the case, but it could also just mean Daggett is still in business with them and therefore is responsible for them being in Gotham.

Either way, Bane and the LOS have a ton of resources. Daggett pretty much let Bane use his company as he wished.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:06 PM   #267
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What if Bruce just stoned the tv protesting to watch anything as soon as Bane left (you can still throw stuff with a messed up back lying down right...lol) or another prisoner did it and he didn't get to see anything. If he's in Gotham he can't escape it even if he wanted to.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:10 PM   #268
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If he's underground, what does it matter? In either case he's not on the streets of Gotham really seeing what is happening to the people.

Not to mention, do you honestly think him breaking the TV made him feel any better or made him stop thinking about the hell that Gotham was burning in? I don't think Bruce could have thrown anything hard enough to break a TV when he was immobile, though.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:13 PM   #269
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

A Gotham based dungeon could lie beneath Crime Alley. Bruce could pull his broken body up through a hole in the ground, where his parents lay dead and Batman was born. If it only became apparent once he stood in the cold outside air, then I then wouldn't seem contrived.

Just an idea, anyway.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:24 PM   #270
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I believe it would matter because it would hurt more being that close to the madness and he would visit regularly and say things like.....x amount of people perished today how are you feeling Mr. Wayne. He could have also set up a tv.

Didn't make him feel better but having someone you hate taunt and torture you mentally with all that going on just above is pretty cruel. All Bruce faced in the prison was himself...imagine having to do that and deal with the person who has him in the situation interrupting his progress and sucking any hope he manages to muster up. Of course this is a different scenario and he wouldn't have to make a jump.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:30 PM   #271
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

Bruce having only himself to face is what MAKES it so epic...for me, anyway.

Hey, it's cool hearing alternative ideas for the film and I think these ideas all work in their own way. I just prefer what we got in the film, I think it's the most thematically on-point for what the film was trying to do.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:33 PM   #272
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Eh, the only other imprisonment I could see other than the pit would have to be Bruce thrown into Arkham. Now that would definitely be a worthy alternative.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:39 PM   #273
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That would be amazing, if given the full Grant Morrison treatment.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:41 PM   #274
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^ In a movie that was dealing more with Bruce's sanity/insanity, that'd be perfect.

In fact, that'd be the perfect thing for Keaton's Batman to overcome in the non-existent third Burton film.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:43 PM   #275
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Yeah...If there's one positive I can take from TDKR it's thinking of new ways to do things and it has also sky-rocketed my interest in getting into film making or at least being involved in some part of it.

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