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Old 05-14-2013, 10:50 PM   #151
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

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I think some fans were unhappy because they were expecting "Batman Forever... DONE RIGHT", a more serious interpretation of Bruce Wayne accepting/embracing that it is his destiny to forever be Batman, to spend the rest of his life prowling the streets of Gotham (or crouching on the buildings at night by stone gargoyles), forever vigilant, forever in search of evildoers to punish, etc., thus giving audiences a James Bond circa 1962-2002 cycle of films where Bats would just bounce from one adventure to the next, fighting every villain in his rogue's gallery for decades to come (with the occasional recast and some vague continuity connections).

Instead, they got "the Happy Ending Batman Will Never Have In The Mainstream Comics Because There Must Always Be Another Mission On A Monthly Basis".

I admit TDKR isn't what I expected but I love the film anyway.
This post is dead-on accurate. Of course, not all fans think this way, but certainly a healthy chunk.

I maintain that if that was the movie we got, that particular segment of fandom would be a lot more forgiving of flaws (because there would've been flaws...all movies have them).

For some, I really do believe it's a case of not getting the movie they wanted, and then going and using some of the perceived flaws in the movie to inflate an incomplete argument about why the movie is bad, thus further justifying their opinion. If you essentially love a movie, you enjoy it for its strengths rather than letting its flaws ruin your enjoyment. But you can't essentially love a movie if you don't even like the framing of the story and the major plot points. And if you don't love the movie and essentially have major issues with what it's trying to do, then anything and everything is up for criticism.

That's why regardless of whether it was TDK 2.0, or "Batman Forever- DONE RIGHT!", or what have you...I do think fans wanting a different movie than the one we got is a major recurring issue that's easily observed. And no, I don't just mean a "better" version of TDKR, I mean an entirely different movie. The "What changes would you make?" thread proves it, because there were tons of posts listing so many changes and adjustments to the story that it becomes something else altogether.

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Old 05-14-2013, 10:55 PM   #152
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

+1 to that. ^

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:17 PM   #153
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You can call it what ever you want, but at least those opinions are based on something. Namely the inferior quality of the movie and all the flaws and problems people have with it. They're not just conjuring their opinions out of thin air. They're basing them on something.

Saying most detractors wanted TDK 2.0 is based on nothing at all.
They are based on nothing simply because only a few comic book fans expected something else. And those few, like I said I feel, expected a TDK 2.0 in which the film should've felt the same with the tone and all.

And once again, the few comic book fans also look at TDKR's "flaws" while overlooking the almost identical ones that happened in the past two films, lol.

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To you. For a lot of people it didn't live up to that standard. It's got nothing to do with wanting a TDK 2.0 because we've heard all the plethora of reasons why people think TDKR fell short. There's reviews, articles, lists, videos and so much more.
The bold is another thing that is just ridiculous to hear. You'd think it was a hated film by everyone when someone uses the phrase "a lot of people".

There's also reviews, articles, lists and so much more that gives TDKR high praise you know.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:17 PM   #154
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This post is dead-on accurate. Of course, not all fans think this way, but certainly a healthy chunk.

I maintain that if that was the movie we got, that particular segment of fandom would be a lot more forgiving of flaws (because there would've been flaws...all movies have them).

For some, I really do believe it's a case of not getting the movie they wanted, and then going and using some of the perceived flaws in the movie to inflate an incomplete argument about why the movie is bad, thus further justifying their opinion. If you essentially love a movie, you enjoy it for its strengths rather than letting its flaws ruin your enjoyment. But you can't essentially love a movie if you don't even like the framing of the story and the major plot points. And if you don't love the movie and essentially have major issues with what it's trying to do, then anything and everything is up for criticism.

That's why regardless of whether it was TDK 2.0, or "Batman Forever- DONE RIGHT!", or what have you...I do think fans wanting a different movie than the one we got is a major recurring issue that's easily observed. And no, I don't just mean a "better" version of TDKR, I mean an entirely different movie. The "What changes would you make?" thread proves it, because there were tons of posts listing so many changes and adjustments to the story that it becomes something else altogether.
Dead on accurate

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:21 PM   #155
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I did not want TDK 2.0 and I also dislike people trying to rationalize away my opinion. When I first left the theatre for TDKR, I loved it and thought that it might be the best Batfilm yet - even said so on Facebook. Then on the second viewing I took that opinion back, noticing some things I didn't quite like, John Blake being the main thing. Subsequent viewings have soured my opinion more. The film is still enjoyable for me, but far more flawed than BB or TDK.

If I had just wanted TDK 2.0, my initial reaction would not have been so positive. I was all for the film from the get-go. I'm not one of these fans who thinks that once you have the Joker in a film that batfilm "can't be topped." I don't use TDK as an excuse for why TDKR is inferior. I judge TDKR on its own merits. Frankly this "well people just expected TDK and didn't get it" stuff sounds like excuse-making which is not that great a defense of the film.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:25 PM   #156
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They are based on nothing simply because only a few comic book fans expected something else.
Like what, a better more coherent movie with a stronger story?

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And those few, like I said I feel, expected a TDK 2.0 in which the film should've felt the same with the tone and all.
Show me proof of this. If you're going to accuse so many people of this blind BS then at least have the decency to back it up.

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And once again, the few comic book fans also look at TDKR's "flaws" while overlooking the almost identical ones that happened in the past two films, lol.
No, they don't. The flaws in TDKR just stand out more because they're not surrounded by the kind of high quality that the first two movies had. That's why they're more apparent.

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The bold is another thing that is just ridiculous to hear. You'd think it was a hated film by everyone when someone uses the phrase "a lot of people".
No, that's just your misinterpretation of it. Just because it's not seen by many, or dare I say most as being as good as TDK, doesn't mean it's hated. BB is probably seen as the weakest one, at least by fans, but does that mean it's hated?

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:30 PM   #157
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And you're basing that belief on what?
Just what i've been seeing people post in the Batboards for the most part before and during TDKR was filming. Like I said, It's not everyone and i'm definitely not pointing at you but I did see people hyping themselves for a continuing story after TDK in style and structure. If that was ever me, I would've been disappointed that TDKR wasn't a direct continuation of Batman Begins in style and structure which I find better of the three..but I wasn't. Each film for me, stands as different films but still continuing the overall story.


....then again I probably don't know what the hell i'm talkin about so I'll just leave it be.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:38 PM   #158
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I wish TDKR stood more on its own and mimicked BB and TDK less, actually. BB and TDK worked so well together precisely because they were so different. TDKR was a mish-mash of, well, everything. Its fun at places because of this, don't get me wrong - but it doesn't stand on its own as well.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:43 PM   #159
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Well to end a story arch you kinda had to bring in story elements from the previous films to tie it together unless you want to continue the story which wasn't gonna happen. Also, I feel there's a part of why people aren't keen to see their favorite characters end. No matter how they end a long lasting character, the end of the road doesn't look as good as when they start or when they are at their peak.

Every superhero film that's has reached their 3rd/ender film so far hasn't got a rave reaction from the majority of fans...and it'll probably be a long time before it does.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:47 PM   #160
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I know there has to be some continuity, just like Scarecrow showing up in TDK etc. But I felt TDK was a natural continuation of BB while being entirely different. TDKR by contrast intentionally tries to bring things "full circle." I'd have rather them conclude the story in a connected but more unique way. Honestly there were lots and lots of callbacks to Begins in particular that weren't absolutely necessary to the plot. Heck, neither the LOS nor Talia were really that necessary when you get down to it - I'd have been cool with Bane just having a super badass team of mercenaries.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:47 PM   #161
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In Batman Begins, you had Bruce Wayne in and out action for quite a while before getting to Batman.

In The Dark Knight, you had Batman in action pretty quickly.

In The Dark Knight Rises, you have neither Bruce nor Batman in action until like what, 45 minutes into the movie. Instead, you're expected to be dazzled by the other characters action sequences.

It's a change, but not one for the better IMO.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:52 PM   #162
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Just what i've been seeing people post in the Batboards for the most part before and during TDKR was filming. Like I said, It's not everyone and i'm definitely not pointing at you but I did see people hyping themselves for a continuing story after TDK in style and structure. If that was ever me, I would've been disappointed that TDKR wasn't a direct continuation of Batman Begins in style and structure which I find better of the three..but I wasn't. Each film for me, stands as different films but still continuing the overall story.
You don't know what the hell you're talking about.


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....then again I probably don't know what the hell i'm talkin about so I'll just leave it be.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:53 PM   #163
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It's a change, but not one for the better IMO.
Yeah, and you have Gary freakin' Oldman's Jim freakin' Gordon being sidelined by John (yawn) Robin Blake, who is more of a plot prop than an actual character. I'm not opposed to the concept of John Blake (if TDKR had been split into two films, and Blake had gotten decent character development, then he might be interesting). But Jim Gordon's character went out with a whimper in this trilogy. He barely had a character arc in TDKR. I'd have gladly spared some Foley or Blake screentime for Jim.

Alfred is gone for much of the film as well. Bruce isn't Bats for much of the film. Lucius doesn't have much to do either. The previous two films juggled these characters SO well, and in TDKR all the juggling balls drop and bounce around in a mess.

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Old 05-14-2013, 11:57 PM   #164
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Don't get me wrong, there's some stuff I love about TDKR. I love Hathaway's Catwoman. I love when Bats evades the police, and when he flies with Catwoman through the city. I love the first Bats / Bane fight (despite what I see as some logical flaws, the fight is well shot). I love when Bruce climbs out of the pit (when the bats fly out as he's preparing to jump, I get chills EVERY TIME). There are elements of a spectacular film here. It doesn't bore me.

But the film seems to flounder by attempting too much. It wastes its potential. No, not its potential to copy BB or TDK. Its potential to become something more unique in its own right. The stuff I mention above indicate to me it could have been much more.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:10 AM   #165
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Don't get me wrong, there's some stuff I love about TDKR. I love Hathaway's Catwoman. I love when Bats evades the police, and when he flies with Catwoman through the city. I love the first Bats / Bane fight (despite what I see as some logical flaws, the fight is well shot). I love when Bruce climbs out of the pit (when the bats fly out as he's preparing to jump, I get chills EVERY TIME). There are elements of a spectacular film here. It doesn't bore me.

But the film seems to flounder by attempting too much. It wastes its potential. No, not its potential to copy BB or TDK. Its potential to become something more unique in its own right. The stuff I mention above indicate to me it could have been much more.
I would've loved it too if they did flesh things out a bit during moments where the editing jittered. Every I did enjoyed that wasn't fleshed out I saw the potential and added in what logically would've happened in the context of the story. For me there's a lot going right in my book than bad (again due to the editing) so it's why I don't look at the film too harshly...plus at the end of the day, it's just a film, so I don't get too worked up about it.

and yes this is coming from a guy who loves B&R and every Batman film, so if that doesn't make my statements legit or mean anything then oh well. *shrugs*


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Old 05-15-2013, 12:14 AM   #166
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and yes this is coming from a guy who loves B&R and every Batman film, so if that doesn't make my statements legit or mean anything then oh well. *shrugs*
Nah, dude, that's awesome. I'm glad you enjoy them all (honestly, no sarcasm). I wish I could. I enjoy the two Burton films and the three Nolan films, but not the Schumacher ones.

I critique TDKR a lot in here, mostly because critiques seem to be under discussion whenever I pop in, but I don't hate the film... I've seen it a bunch of times and find it entertaining. Even a mediocre Nolan film is more fun than most, at least for me... none of its flaws bother me too much except John Blake, who I just find boring.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:17 AM   #167
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Even a mediocre Nolan film is more fun than most, at least for me...
I agree. Insomnia, the only mediocre Nolan film to me, is still very good.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:17 AM   #168
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For me, Insomnia is underrated. I love the imagery in that film.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:23 AM   #169
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For me, Insomnia is underrated. I love the imagery in that film.
The imagery is great (I quite like the light coming through and him trying to cover it up), the performances are (for the most part) great and it was good. But I didn't find too much to separate it from most crime films. Maybe I have to rewatch it though. Again, it's still quite good in my opinion.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:24 AM   #170
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Like what, a better more coherent movie with a stronger story?
Your "more coherent, stronger story" was an active Batman that didn't retire for so many years in the beginning...I was fine with that, so I would say TDKR did have a coherent and strong story.

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Show me proof of this. If you're going to accuse so many people of this blind BS then at least have the decency to back it up.
From the past of posters comparing it to TDK almost all the time and not by its own merit.

And please, don't say that's BS when the whole "Nolan's heart wasn't in the film" is the pinnacle of BS.

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No, they don't. The flaws in TDKR just stand out more because they're not surrounded by the kind of high quality that the first two movies had. That's why they're more apparent.
Just overlooked blindly is more like it because it goes back to the idea of TDKR not being the film some wanted. Plain and simple.

But okay, let's talk about quality...why should a film with "high quality" be the excuse of why flaws aren't criticized? I love TDK as much as the next Batfan, but I can call out its flaws in a heartbeat.

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No, that's just your misinterpretation of it. Just because it's not seen by many, or dare I say most as being as good as TDK, doesn't mean it's hated. BB is probably seen as the weakest one, at least by fans, but does that mean it's hated?
I am fully aware it's not hated. I only said that some posters makes it SEEM like such, lol.

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Old 05-15-2013, 01:03 AM   #171
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For me, Insomnia is underrated. I love the imagery in that film.
I totally agree. The scenic shots of Alaska are gorgeous in that film. I kind of see Insomnia as a stepping stone for Nolan and Pfister that prepared them for what they were about to launch into with Batman Begins.

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Also, I feel there's a part of why people aren't keen to see their favorite characters end. No matter how they end a long lasting character, the end of the road doesn't look as good as when they start or when they are at their peak.
QUITE agree with this. And I say that because I can say, even as someone who loves the film, it doesn't give me that same feeling of utter fan-glee that the first two did. It's more bittersweet and sobering for me. Like waking up from an amazing dream that you really didn't want to end. Because of that I guess I feel like there's something inherently less fun about the end of the journey as opposed to the beginning and middle of the journey. But the end can be more grand and epic if pulled off the right way, which I feel TDKR capitalized on.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:10 AM   #172
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Ugh I really loathe those accusations that most of those who were unsatisfied with TDKR felt that way because it's wasn't TDK 2.0

Talk about denial.
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It's an useless accusation because most of the people still discussing this film in this forum have been following this film's production since the beginning, as well as having seen the tone disparity between Begins and TDK knew full well it wouldn't be the same tone as the former.

Then who else is it referring to? The casual public? The casual public liked the film.
It is both patronising and ignorant, frankly. There is nothing more annoying than being told what you think when the analysis is completely inaccurate and baseless. There is plenty of crap amongst the cream in TDKR. You do not need to view the movie with any presumptions or preconceptions in order to see it. The fact that BB and TDK were great films is not the reason we find TDKR to be somewhat mundane and disappointing: it is merely the reason we care.

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The single easiest way to improve TDKR's quality would've been to ditch Talia, though. Every scene Miranda's in is one of the worst in the movie, and her backstory felt rushed.
Yep, she was dreadful in my opinion. I have no wish to incite the wrath of Cotillard fans when I say that her performance was pathetically inadequate, and it is partly because the character was pointless and poorly written.

The strengths in the movie were (a) Bane (b) the 'No Man's Land' plot line and (c) the promise of Batman's triumphant return. Most of the rest of the movie acted to bloat the structure and slow the momentum.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:11 AM   #173
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It is both patronising and ignorant, frankly. There is nothing more annoying than being told what you think when the analysis is completely inaccurate and baseless. There is plenty of crap amongst the cream in TDKR. You do not need to view the movie with any presumptions or preconceptions in order to see it. The fact that BB and TDK were great films is not the reason we find TDKR to be somewhat mundane and disappointing: it is merely the reason we care.
Bingo!
I'd love to hear how many people on this board were disappointed because they wanted TDKR to be a TDK 2.0. I'll go first. I'm not one of them. I find it interesting that people that didn't like TDKR need to be labelled and psychoanalyzed. We either "didn't get it", or we went in with preconceived notions of wanting a "TDK 2.0" etc. In other words a case always has to be made that there is something wrong with people simply not liking a movie.


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Old 05-15-2013, 05:35 AM   #174
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I think some fans were unhappy because they were expecting "Batman Forever... DONE RIGHT", a more serious interpretation of Bruce Wayne accepting/embracing that it is his destiny to forever be Batman, to spend the rest of his life prowling the streets of Gotham (or crouching on the buildings at night by stone gargoyles), forever vigilant, forever in search of evildoers to punish, etc., thus giving audiences a James Bond circa 1962-2002 cycle of films where Bats would just bounce from one adventure to the next, fighting every villain in his rogue's gallery for decades to come (with the occasional recast and some vague continuity connections).

Instead, they got "the Happy Ending Batman Will Never Have In The Mainstream Comics Because There Must Always Be Another Mission On A Monthly Basis".

I admit TDKR isn't what I expected but I love the film anyway.


Absolutely. And i have no problems saying that Rises went places i didn't expect after watching TDK. But that's just one of the many beauties of the film. It doesn't follow the common storyline everyone accepted. It completely subverts expectations. And that's , quite frankly , marvelous !

This is a movie that is completely unparalleled not only in the genre , but even in the immense character legacy.

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Old 05-15-2013, 05:57 AM   #175
regwec
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tequilla View Post
This is a movie that is completely unparalleled not only in the genre , but even in the immense character legacy.
?

Batman has gone places in the comics that he will never go in a movie. TDKR is really a fusion of two old comicbook runs, with a happy ending bolted onto the end.

Surely you can't mean what you seem to be saying here.

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