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Old 05-13-2013, 11:06 PM   #26
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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How would having a different Spider-Man on a TV show with no links to Peter Parker undermine Sony? It certainly wouldn't undermine Sony as much as making a Peter-Parker-in-high-school-dating-Gwen-Stacy-fighting-Lizard-Electro-and-Rhino TV show.
Well no, but it would still undermine them.

It would confuse the general moviegoing audience (who also watch TV).

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:17 PM   #27
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

Not in TV, or at least I don't think - but in animation (animated films in theaters) they freely can, or according to a recent IGN article...

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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Well no, but it would still undermine them.

It would confuse the general moviegoing audience (who also watch TV).


They're pretty clearly two different characters. If the audience didn't get confused by Smallville and Superman Returns, they can handle two different continuities, especially if they have all different characters. At worst they'll think of/call Morales "The Black Spider-Man."

But I see what you're saying in that it could undermine them, just not in any way which they could prove legally like they could if it had the same plotlines as the Sony films. Plus, depending on how things go it could bolster more interest in Spider-Man mythos overall.

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:22 PM   #29
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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They're pretty clearly two different characters. If the audience didn't get confused by Smallville and Superman Returns, they can handle two different continuities, especially if they have all different characters. At worst they'll think of/call Morales "The Black Spider-Man."

But I see what you're saying in that it could undermine them, but not in any way which they could prove legally. If anything it could bolster more interest in Spider-Man mythos overall.
Oh sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you meant two Peter Parkers.

I suppose that could work. But there is one caveat. This isn't just a TV show. It's tied into the movies. That would present a problem.

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

Yes, it would present the problem of: MCU Spider-Man (in this case, Morales) could never be directly mentioned on film. That would be disappointing for people who love any brief appearances he may have on Agents of SHIELD. That's a legitimate problem, potentially. It might be necessary to depower or otherwise put Miles out of the story at some point (in an emotionally satisfying way) to end the cries to have him in Avengers 3 or whatever. In fact... I would absolutely hate to kill him off, but making it like he's about to become part of the Avengers, only to die in the season finale before Avengers 3 comes out. That'd be some darn good TV.

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:36 PM   #31
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First, I think it would be a travesty for the true Spider-Man (and marvel's flagship) who has been in existence for 50 years to be replaced in Marvel's MCU (which the TV show is a part of) by a character who has only been around for two years. Most people would balk at that. Secondly, it undermines Sony because it would be like having a competing Spider-Man, even though I'm laughing mt a$$ of as I type this. I don't see how they would view it any different legally then a Peter Parker Spider-Man. And I doubt Disney would either which is why we won't see it.

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Old 05-13-2013, 11:59 PM   #32
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First, I think it would be a travesty for the true Spider-Man (and marvel's flagship) who has been in existence for 50 years to be replaced in Marvel's MCU (which the TV show is a part of) by a character who has only been around for two years. Most people would balk at that. Secondly, it undermines Sony because it would be like having a competing Spider-Man, even though I'm laughing mt a$$ of as I type this. I don't see how they would view it any different legally then a Peter Parker Spider-Man. And I doubt Disney would either which is why we won't see it.
Peter Parker is not in the MCU, nor will he be in the foreseeable future. You can't replace someone who was never there. That's not how the word replace works. Most people don't know how long Spider-Man has been in publication, they won't share your indignation or derision. They'll just be "Oh, I didn't know there was a black Spider-Man."

Here's the thing about the name. Two different companies can have and market a super strong flying energy blasting superhero named Captain Marvel. That's no problem - unless they have the same alias and supporting cast and story. It's not a competition unless you can get the same thing from both. Unless one's success undermines that of the other. A code name, even similar powers is not enough, according to the courts of the land, and the pocketbooks of the major comics companies.

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Old 05-14-2013, 12:14 AM   #33
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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Peter Parker is not in the MCU, nor will he be in the foreseeable future. You can't replace someone who was never there. That's not how the word replace works. Most people don't know how long Spider-Man has been in publication, they won't share your indignation or derision. They'll just be "Oh, I didn't know there was a black Spider-Man."
Yeah most people don't know how long he's been in publication, just that he's been around forever...They know who Peter Parker is as much as Spider-Man. Miles won't cut it (Glad YOU love him though). Even Marvel won't use him before Peter, so don't get used to the idea.

I don't mind the new USM, but he ain't the original, that's for damn sure.

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Old 05-14-2013, 05:29 AM   #34
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

You know I have no idea. Wolverine was able to turn up in the Avengers cartoon alright but I'm not sure about movies.

Either way I think Joss and Marvel probably won't want to put Spidey and Wolverine in Shield because the Avengers have their own universe really and if Spidey and the X-men turn up in the show everyone will be looking around for them during the movies.

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Old 05-14-2013, 12:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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Yeah most people don't know how long he's been in publication, just that he's been around forever...They know who Peter Parker is as much as Spider-Man. Miles won't cut it (Glad YOU love him though). Even Marvel won't use him before Peter, so don't get used to the idea.

I don't mind the new USM, but he ain't the original, that's for damn sure.
I know YOU wouldn't use him, because you imagine they will eventually use Peter, which is why you used the word "before." But why wouldn't Marvel use him?

The rest of the world implicitly understands that the MCU is not 616, that it does not and will never have the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and X-Men. People without this expectation would never compare Miles to Peter, because without that pipe dream, it's two separate things. "Who the heck is this new Spider-Man" becomes an exciting mystery and not "What happened to Peter" because everyone else has accepted (or never knew otherwise) that Peter is not and never will be there.

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Old 05-14-2013, 12:32 PM   #36
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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I know YOU wouldn't use him, because you imagine they will eventually use Peter, which is why you used the word "before." But why wouldn't Marvel use him?

The rest of the world implicitly understands that the MCU is not 616, that it does not and will never have the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and X-Men. People without this expectation would never compare Miles to Peter, because without that pipe dream, it's two separate things. "Who the heck is this new Spider-Man" becomes an exciting mystery and not "What happened to Peter" because everyone else has accepted (or never knew otherwise) that Peter is not and never will be there.
I agree. If Spider-man joins the MCU, and I think he will after 2018 to replace the "Big Three" of Downey, Hemsworth and Evans, the Miles Morales version is the likely addition. Unlike Peter, he is a fresh character for Marvel Studios to work with and will generate more publicity (and controversy) than the 7th or 8th film appearance of Peter Parker. With Garfield (probably) hanging up the tights around that time, and the MCU needing to reshuffle its lineup, it is the perfect opportunity for Sony and Disney/Marvel to collaborate on a new series of team and solo films.

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Old 05-14-2013, 12:45 PM   #37
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

I'll never say never to Peter being in the MCU. I wouldn't be surprised if a deal were struck to make it happen in the next 5-10 years.

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Old 05-14-2013, 06:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

Well then keep hope alive, my friend.

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I agree. If Spider-man joins the MCU, and I think he will after 2018 to replace the "Big Three" of Downey, Hemsworth and Evans, the Miles Morales version is the likely addition. Unlike Peter, he is a fresh character for Marvel Studios to work with and will generate more publicity (and controversy) than the 7th or 8th film appearance of Peter Parker. With Garfield (probably) hanging up the tights around that time, and the MCU needing to reshuffle its lineup, it is the perfect opportunity for Sony and Disney/Marvel to collaborate on a new series of team and solo films.
I don't know that that's possible either. Sony will still have the movie rights to all things Spider-Man, and it still won't be in Disney's best interest to pay Sony any money to use the character. The only place any MCU Spider-Man can appear is on TV.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:07 PM   #39
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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Making a TV show that either undermines or references Sony's Spidey films would be a breach of contract.
While I agree with you that there could be many problems with bringing Spider-Man into AoS (such as never being able to mention him on film), I disagree that it would necessarily be a breach of contract to do so. My opinion is that if Sony truly relinquished the live-action TV rights to Marvel (it is still unclear which rights they actually gave up), then Marvel has every right to use the Peter Parker/Spider-Man character in a live-action TV show, no matter who owns the live-action film rights. Of course there could be a clause in the contract about this, but I've never seen it. Have you?
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And as long as Spidey's in high school in the films, a high school Spidey TV show would be seen as sabotaging their deal with Sony. Lawsuits, ugly stuff that.
A Marvel-produced "high school Spidey TV show" currently exists, and it is not seen as sabotaging their deal with Sony. Maybe you have seen the contract; have you read that this applies only to a live-action TV version of Spider-Man, but not an animated TV version?

As far as we know, we can't make any claims either way.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:21 PM   #40
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I don't know that that's possible either. Sony will still have the movie rights to all things Spider-Man, and it still won't be in Disney's best interest to pay Sony any money to use the character. The only place any MCU Spider-Man can appear is on TV.
No money has to exchange hands. Disney/Marvel would "borrow" Spider-man for their Avengers movies, while Sony would "borrow" Miles Morales for his solo adventures. This could potentially reinvigorate both franchises at a time when they may be looking for a boost. And Disney could toss in the use of supporting characters like SHIELD and Daredevil in order to sweeten the pot.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:29 PM   #41
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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While I agree with you that there could be many problems with bringing Spider-Man into AoS (such as never being able to mention him on film), I disagree that it would necessarily be a breach of contract to do so. My opinion is that if Sony truly relinquished the live-action TV rights to Marvel (it is still unclear which rights they actually gave up), then Marvel has every right to use the Peter Parker/Spider-Man character in a live-action TV show, no matter who owns the live-action film rights. Of course there could be a clause in the contract about this, but I've never seen it. Have you?

A Marvel-produced "high school Spidey TV show" currently exists, and it is not seen as sabotaging their deal with Sony. Maybe you have seen the contract; have you read that this applies only to a live-action TV version of Spider-Man, but not an animated TV version?

As far as we know, we can't make any claims either way.
I'm relying more on elementary deduction that the contract ensures that Disney cannot utterly screw over Sony. This is under the assumption that Sony's lawyers are not incompetent. It's true, I don't know for sure that they are not though.

But under that assumption, a live action TV show about Peter in High School dating Gwen Stacy fighting Rhino and Electro, as I described earlier, would not only take away much of the anticipation of Amazing Spider-Man 2, but cover story at such a pace that anything ASM2 did would be a retread of the TV show. It would utterly screw over Sony, and so, by elementary deduction, some part of the contract must prevent that from happening. As you can imagine this would not apply to the cartoon high school Peter show, as that would not sate anticipation for live action Spider-Man and the kinds of subtle human stories best told by live action.

So to use Spider-Man on live action TV, as the reports have stated they are fully allowed to, they would have to do so in a way which does not undermine Sony's Spider-Man film... which covers everything about Peter in high school from Gwen to MJ to Harry to Oscorp Conspiracies and so on. If you can't retread any of that... what do you have left? You can put something together with Peter, redesign all his supporting cast and villains so they're still recognizable but clearly separate from the ASM series... but it'd be far far easier to make that distinction with Miles, and virtually no risk of inadvertently redoing ASM's stories.

Plus, even if my assumption is wrong, it does Disney/Marvel no good to include a TV Spider-Man that takes anything at all away from Sony's series which increases their brand and gives them a cut.

EDIT: Another way to use Peter safely is not to explore his life at all. Just have Spider-Man be a person of interest for SHIELD. Heck, leave his mask on a stuntman and have Drake Bell do the voice. That'd be crazy!

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:32 PM   #42
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

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No money has to exchange hands. Disney/Marvel would "borrow" Spider-man for their Avengers movies, while Sony would "borrow" Miles Morales for his solo adventures. This could potentially reinvigorate both franchises at a time when they may be looking for a boost. And Disney could toss in the use of supporting characters like SHIELD and Daredevil in order to sweeten the pot.
Sony already has the film rights to all things Spider-Man, that would include Morales. Disney will be riding high on the their highly anticipated third Avengers film. They will likely not be looking for a boost. The only people who "need" Spider-Man in the MCU is the fans. There's just no business or creative reason to push for it, or give up anything at all for it.

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Old 05-15-2013, 12:52 PM   #43
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Sony already has the film rights to all things Spider-Man, that would include Morales.
Mr. Morales, much like Iron Patriot, was not sold off to Sony.

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Disney will be riding high on the their highly anticipated third Avengers film. They will likely not be looking for a boost. The only people who "need" Spider-Man in the MCU is the fans. There's just no business or creative reason to push for it, or give up anything at all for it.
The best time for a company to shake things up is when they are "riding high". Post Avengers 3 Marvel will be looking at replacing Downey, Hemsworth and Evans. Or introducing new characters that likely won't resonate with audiences as well as the "Big Three". Though I am a traditionalist when it comes to Avengers lineups, I can't think of a character that would bring more buzz to both the Avengers and Spider-man franchises than Miles. In my opinion there are very strong creative and business reasons for Sony and Marvel to collaborate on introducing Miles Morales to movie goers.

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Old 05-16-2013, 03:38 AM   #44
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Default Re: Do TV rights differ from movie rights? Can Spider-Man show up?

While Marvel now has the TV rights to Spider-Man through an update of their contract, they don't have the rights to the FF and anything concerning mutants at all in live-action(except Dazzler still not understanding the loop-hole on that one). Unless Fox also updated their contract with Marvel, Marvel can't make any live action shows concerning Fox's properties. This is why when Marvel came out with Mutant X back in 2001 Fox sued them for breach of contract.

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Old 05-16-2013, 08:19 AM   #45
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While Marvel now has the TV rights to Spider-Man through an update of their contract, they don't have the rights to the FF and anything concerning mutants at all in live-action(except Dazzler still not understanding the loop-hole on that one). Unless Fox also updated their contract with Marvel, Marvel can't make any live action shows concerning Fox's properties. This is why when Marvel came out with Mutant X back in 2001 Fox sued them for breach of contract.
Marvel didn't produce Mutant X.

Something changed with FF contract in that at least the animation rights transferred to Marvel, since they did show up in the second season of the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes! cartoon (and previously could not appear in the first season). Whether or not this means the live-action television rights transferred as well is again beyond our knowledge.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:14 AM   #46
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Mr. Morales, much like Iron Patriot, was not sold off to Sony.
Really? That's *very* interesting.

Edit: How do we know this?

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The best time for a company to shake things up is when they are "riding high". Post Avengers 3 Marvel will be looking at replacing Downey, Hemsworth and Evans. Or introducing new characters that likely won't resonate with audiences as well as the "Big Three". Though I am a traditionalist when it comes to Avengers lineups, I can't think of a character that would bring more buzz to both the Avengers and Spider-man franchises than Miles. In my opinion there are very strong creative and business reasons for Sony and Marvel to collaborate on introducing Miles Morales to movie goers.
I don't know, Yogi. Even if they don't go the recasting route for the big three, there's still not a reason to work with Sony. If they have Miles already, they can build him up and rock him themselves. They can't connect Miles to Peter unless they jump through a bunch of hoops, and what do they get for it? I guess that's the part I'm missing: What is Disney getting that they can't get for themselves more easily without bringing other people and their requirements and shortcomings into the mix?

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Old 05-16-2013, 12:16 PM   #47
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Really? That's *very* interesting.

Edit: How do we know this?
We don't, but by the time Morales was created Marvel was long out of the selling off rights business. Also, he's not a part of the original Spider-man family, or a mutant, both of which were sold off.


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I don't know, Yogi. Even if they don't go the recasting route for the big three, there's still not a reason to work with Sony. If they have Miles already, they can build him up and rock him themselves. They can't connect Miles to Peter unless they jump through a bunch of hoops, and what do they get for it? I guess that's the part I'm missing: What is Disney getting that they can't get for themselves more easily without bringing other people and their requirements and shortcomings into the mix?
They can use Miles, but I don't believe they can call him "Spider-man" or put him in the suit. Sony and Marvel need to work together in order to put the complete character on screen. I think it can work similarly to how it was handled in the Ultimate Universe comics, with Parker dying heroically in the final Webb/Garfield installment, and Miles taking up the gauntlet as the new Spider-man. Include a Nick Fury post-credit scene, and you could revitalize the character for both companies.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:34 PM   #48
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We don't, but by the time Morales was created Marvel was long out of the selling off rights business. Also, he's not a part of the original Spider-man family, or a mutant, both of which were sold off.
Hmmm... I guess we don't know. Garfield did mention hoping that Miles Morales was next, but I don't know if that's from inside information about what Sony can do or just reading comics.

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They can use Miles, but I don't believe they can call him "Spider-man" or put him in the suit. Sony and Marvel need to work together in order to put the complete character on screen. I think it can work similarly to how it was handled in the Ultimate Universe comics, with Parker dying heroically in the final Webb/Garfield installment, and Miles taking up the gauntlet as the new Spider-man. Include a Nick Fury post-credit scene, and you could revitalize the character for both companies.
To be fair, it is a different suit, so perhaps the black suit is fair game. Perhaps that's part of why its different.

Regardless... I'm trying to suss out what you have here. You're saying Sony should kill off their biggest most successful character in order to bring in a less successful character? That's their best move?

And then Disney is going to bring Sony into the MCU? Does that mean Sony's filmmakers have to answer to Whedon like the other MCU filmmakers do? Or are Sony's filmmakers allowed to do things that conflict with what Whedon/other filmmakers have planned? Does Disney get any money off of the Sony films now, even though they're using up SLJackson, whom they paid for a 9 picture deal for, and Disney's character Miles Morales? What happens if this promotion doesn't notably change the Avengers gross? Who is at fault? Is the deal off or does Disney have to keep this shared Spider-Man around?

It's actually a solid plan, but it's got a couple weaknesses, most notably, the need for two large corporations to give each other things for free.

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Old 05-20-2013, 12:43 PM   #49
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I can't really see Marvel being able to use Miles Morales. If that *were* allowed, it would basically render the existing contracts entirely useless, as Marvel could subvert them at will through new incarnations. The fact that Miles Morales was created to be a "new" Spider-man, would almost certainly place him under the existing contract that grants Sony the rights to Spider-man, just as much as a newly created Spider-man villain would.

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Old 05-20-2013, 03:38 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by spideymouse View Post
Marvel didn't produce Mutant X.

Something changed with FF contract in that at least the animation rights transferred to Marvel, since they did show up in the second season of the Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes! cartoon (and previously could not appear in the first season). Whether or not this means the live-action television rights transferred as well is again beyond our knowledge.
Actually, they did help produce it. That's why FOX went after Marvel in the suit along with the other company that produced it.

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