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Old 05-31-2013, 07:19 PM   #76
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Also.....you mean to tell me that the whitest ....pastiest....most blue-eyed guy on the planet replaced Ricardo Montaban? Lou Diamond Phillps wasnt available? Jimmy Smitts? Somebody who could pull off being named Khan Noonian Singn?

Agree somewhat but if you follow their logic as this being an alternate timeline/reality i guess having a completely different type of character does fit. My only complain was that enterprise should have seen some more action other than that i was happy with the film.

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Old 05-31-2013, 07:39 PM   #77
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My issue with Cumberbatch is
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
that he really didn't feel like "Khan" to me. I think he played a great villain, but it seemed like a totally different character than the Khan we're used to. I'm not talking about his look or his accent so much as his motivations and characterization. The Khan of the original timeline we this sort of sexy barbarian type of guy. He was highly intelligent yes, but he also had this need to conquer and vanquish anyone he view as inferior. He also had a very healthy sexual appetite. The Khan in this version seemed more like an asexual assassin type. I don't know; I just think it would have been better had they made him a different character altogether.
Agreed

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Old 05-31-2013, 07:47 PM   #78
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Agree somewhat but if you follow their logic as this being an alternate timeline/reality i guess having a completely different type of character does fit. My only complain was that enterprise should have seen some more action other than that i was happy with the film.
The timeline thing should not affect Khan's history since the Mad Romulan did not go that far into the past. Also....it would not change his ethnicity....come on dude.....he goes from Indian to a blue eyed white dude? We cant just blame everything on alternate reality.....Kirk is still a white guy....uhura is still black....Spock is still half Vulcan.


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Old 05-31-2013, 08:13 PM   #79
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The timeline thing should not affect Khan's history since the Mad Romulian did not go that far into the past. Also....it would not change his ethnicity....come on dude.....he goes from Indian to a blue eyed white dude? We cant just blame everything on alternate reality.....Kirk is still a white guy....uhura is still black....Spock is still half Vulcan.
It is an odd bit of cherry-picking.

Every other main character essentially passes the squint test, meaning if you squint at a picture of these actors you can pretty much guess who is supposed to be Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Sulu, Bones - you might not get Chekov and Scotty at first blush, though you'd probably figure it the moment they opened their mouths - yet, I don't know if anyone would assume Cumberbatch was Khan going by look/voice/dress, etc.

There was an opportunity to even claim that he was a super-soldier from Khan's time - another member of the crew - who was thawed out and served exactly the same purpose as this Khan did, but dies at the end along most of the other pods. We could be told/shown that these weren't all of the pods - a few are still unaccounted for when the not-Khan character and the others are found, and this could be our tip-off that Khan is out there, somewhere, with a band of his men waiting to be thawed in the future. Given the events of the film, he'd have plenty of reason to want revenge (you save the "sacrifice" for later, as well).

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Old 06-01-2013, 01:48 AM   #80
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It is an odd bit of cherry-picking.

Every other main character essentially passes the squint test, meaning if you squint at a picture of these actors you can pretty much guess who is supposed to be Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Sulu, Bones - you might not get Chekov and Scotty at first blush, though you'd probably figure it the moment they opened their mouths - yet, I don't know if anyone would assume Cumberbatch was Khan going by look/voice/dress, etc.

There was an opportunity to even claim that he was a super-soldier from Khan's time - another member of the crew - who was thawed out and served exactly the same purpose as this Khan did, but dies at the end along most of the other pods. We could be told/shown that these weren't all of the pods - a few are still unaccounted for when the not-Khan character and the others are found, and this could be our tip-off that Khan is out there, somewhere, with a band of his men waiting to be thawed in the future. Given the events of the film, he'd have plenty of reason to want revenge (you save the "sacrifice" for later, as well).
That would have been a way to explain this.....
But this guy?? He looks like Ralph Feines' cousin! No way is he Khan. LOL He could play sherlock Holmes, for cryin out loud!

Again....The Mad Romulan time jumped to Kirk's birth day ....not the 90's when the Botany Bay was launched. So we still should have an Indian Khan.

Funny.....Khan never mentioned the name of his ship.

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:39 AM   #81
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Anyone else see this story as completely separate from the TV show? Like it's an actual reboot? Similar how you The Dark Knight Trilogy is completely separate from say the Burton movies, this movie series is separate from all other mediums of Star Trek.

I feel like this makes the story a lot better, and it also gets rid of plot holes such as Khan's skin color change.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:10 AM   #82
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Anyone else see this story as completely separate from the TV show? Like it's an actual reboot? Similar how you The Dark Knight Trilogy is completely separate from say the Burton movies, this movie series is separate from all other mediums of Star Trek.

I feel like this makes the story a lot better, and it also gets rid of plot holes such as Khan's skin color change.
No it doesnt......Why? Because it started with the original timeline. Dark Knight started from scratch....period.

Thus.....if you are talking about time disruption, the only things disrupted would be the things from the point of disruption and forward. This being the case, the Botany Bay and it's crew should be the same. Matter of fact, a future "Space Seed" episode should be yet to happen. The Botany Bay should be out in deep space right now. Khan should still be a suave barbarian superman from India....(complete with ponytail).

Instead we get Sir William Winthrop.

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:36 AM   #83
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No it doesnt......Why? Because it started with the original timeline. Dark Knight started from scratch....period.

Thus.....if you are talking about time disruption, the only things disrupted would be the things from the point of disruption and forward. This being the case, the Botany Bay and it's crew should be the same. Matter of fact, a future "Space Seed" episode should be yet to happen. The Botany Bay should be out in deep space right now. Khan should still be a suave barbarian superman from India....(complete with ponytail).

Instead we get Sir William Winthrop.
Why does it have to start from the same timeline? Why can't the future shown in the first movie be just be that...the future?

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Old 06-01-2013, 01:17 PM   #84
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Why does it have to start from the same timeline? Why can't the future shown in the first movie be just be that...the future?

Maybe it would help if you wiki'd the synopsis for the '09 film? It honestly just doesn't sound like you're getting the core concept, no disrespect

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Old 06-01-2013, 01:28 PM   #85
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Maybe it would help if you wiki'd the synopsis for the '09 film? It honestly just doesn't sound like you're getting the core concept, no disrespect
I've seen the film multiple times thank you very much, and understand it just fine.

You can watch and understand the movie perfectly fine without having seen other thing related to Star Trek. Why can we not just watch this movie assuming it has no ties whatsoever to the previous franchise? It still works.

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Old 06-01-2013, 01:49 PM   #86
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I've seen the film multiple times thank you very much, and understand it just fine.

You can watch and understand the movie perfectly fine without having seen other thing related to Star Trek. Why can we not just watch this movie assuming it has no ties whatsoever to the previous franchise? It still works.
Kinda defeats the whole purpose don't ya think ? The whole point of 09 was to tie the new and the old movies together yet at the same time making the new movies able to stand on themselves.

I mean, we can watch it assuming they have no ties but we would be cheating ourselves.

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Old 06-01-2013, 02:08 PM   #87
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...Why can we not just watch this movie assuming it has no ties whatsoever to the previous franchise? It still works.
Because the film explicitly states that it has ties to the original series (and therefore, subsequent films). It's the filmmakers telling you that, unambiguously. We're not making it up. They even have Nimoy reprising his role from the OT and subsequent films and interacting with Quinto, who's playing the same, younger version of this OT character.

Nero alters the time-line at the point of Kirk's birth, everything before that moment is exactly as it wouldn't been for all these characters and this universe, meaning the character of Khan, who was born and lived and ruled centuries before Kirk's birth would be the same character who shows up in Space Seed and TWOK.

And so, just like Kirk still looks like Kirk and Spock looks like Spock and Bones looks like Bones, Khan - who's already alive and frozen when the time-line is altered - would still resemble the Khan we know. And... this is exhausting so I'll leave it to you all to discuss. Have a good one!

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Old 06-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #88
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Because the film explicitly states that it has ties to the original series (and therefore, subsequent films). It's the filmmakers telling you that, unambiguously. We're not making it up. They even have Nimoy reprising his role from the OT and subsequent films and interacting with Quinto, who's playing the same, younger version of this OT character.

Nero alters the time-line at the point of Kirk's birth, everything before that moment is exactly as it wouldn't been for all these characters and this universe, meaning the character of Khan, who was born and lived and ruled centuries before Kirk's birth would be the same character who shows up in Space Seed and TWOK.

And so, just like Kirk still looks like Kirk and Spock looks like Spock and Bones looks like Bones, Khan - who's already alive and frozen when the time-line is altered - would still resemble the Khan we know. And... this is exhausting so I'll leave it to you all to discuss. Have a good one!
Bravo! I just said the same thing...But you said it much better.

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Old 06-01-2013, 05:39 PM   #89
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Because the film explicitly states that it has ties to the original series (and therefore, subsequent films). It's the filmmakers telling you that, unambiguously. We're not making it up. They even have Nimoy reprising his role from the OT and subsequent films and interacting with Quinto, who's playing the same, younger version of this OT character.

Nero alters the time-line at the point of Kirk's birth, everything before that moment is exactly as it wouldn't been for all these characters and this universe, meaning the character of Khan, who was born and lived and ruled centuries before Kirk's birth would be the same character who shows up in Space Seed and TWOK.

And so, just like Kirk still looks like Kirk and Spock looks like Spock and Bones looks like Bones, Khan - who's already alive and frozen when the time-line is altered - would still resemble the Khan we know. And... this is exhausting so I'll leave it to you all to discuss. Have a good one!
Where does it say IN THE FILM, that it's related to other Star Trek movies? All it says in the movie is that Nero came from the future.

He came from an alternate universe that doesn't necessarily have to be the original series.

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:03 PM   #90
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It is an odd bit of cherry-picking.

Every other main character essentially passes the squint test, meaning if you squint at a picture of these actors you can pretty much guess who is supposed to be Kirk, Spock, Uhura, Sulu, Bones - you might not get Chekov and Scotty at first blush, though you'd probably figure it the moment they opened their mouths - yet, I don't know if anyone would assume Cumberbatch was Khan going by look/voice/dress, etc.

There was an opportunity to even claim that he was a super-soldier from Khan's time - another member of the crew - who was thawed out and served exactly the same purpose as this Khan did, but dies at the end along most of the other pods. We could be told/shown that these weren't all of the pods - a few are still unaccounted for when the not-Khan character and the others are found, and this could be our tip-off that Khan is out there, somewhere, with a band of his men waiting to be thawed in the future. Given the events of the film, he'd have plenty of reason to want revenge (you save the "sacrifice" for later, as well).
I just saw the movie today (and had managed to stay away from most spoilers).......I loved the movie, and came away with the feeling that Cumberbach's character may not have been the actual Khan.

Since there was no actual showing of his and his crew's discovery/awakening/escape.....there is a possiblity that he was just another crewman of Khan's. Section 31 could have awoken this guy, and he took the initiative to proclaim himself Khan in some kind of attempt to protect him (Like all the slaves standing up and shouting I am Spartacus)...and when it went wrong, and he assumed that they had killed the crew (and Khan) he went on a hellbent revenge attack.

There is also the possibility that he was Khan, and once he escaped, he changed his looks through future plastic surgery to avoid capture until he set up his scheme and attacked.

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:04 PM   #91
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Where does it say IN THE FILM, that it's related to other Star Trek movies? All it says in the movie is that Nero came from the future.

He came from an alternate universe that doesn't necessarily have to be the original series.
Nero altered the timeline from the day of Kirk's birth,onward.So everything that happened in history before that date still applies.Which is why it's impossible to have Khan suddenly switch form Indian to British.

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:11 PM   #92
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Where does it say IN THE FILM, that it's related to other Star Trek movies? All it says in the movie is that Nero came from the future.

He came from an alternate universe that doesn't necessarily have to be the original series.
The TV show dealt with both alternate universes and time travel, so they wouldn't have had any problem with presenting a movie that was about someone from an alternative universe and only that. But they did a giant story around time travel and all about how it now had changed the timeline and the universe's future.

The fact that in the first movie, an aged Spock comes back in time from the future and mentions that Kirk is dead in his future (as he was in the movies) it connects that movie to the Trek movie universe.

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Old 06-01-2013, 06:50 PM   #93
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Nero altered the timeline from the day of Kirk's birth,onward.So everything that happened in history before that date still applies.Which is why it's impossible to have Khan suddenly switch form Indian to British.
Not if this series is completely separate from the other Star Trek mediums.

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Old 06-01-2013, 07:06 PM   #94
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Not if this series is completely separate from the other Star Trek mediums.
But it isn't.This isn't the "mirror" universe.It's an alternate timeline created by Nero.The fact that Old Spock is in the film to help young Spock should be the tip off.

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:01 PM   #95
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My only real dislike is the ending.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Khan crashes this big dreadnaught ship into San Francisco most likely killing hundreds of thousands and Spock and Khan duke it out in an epic beatdown then BAM Spock knocks him out 2 weeks pass Kirk is saved and Khan is back in cryo then a year passes and the Enterprise is rebuilt and The End. It was just too neat and quick and I felt Khan was given a terrible sendoff. It was like Abrams wanted this big destructive finale, but had no way to wrap it up so he slapped a band aid on it called it well and rolled the credits.

Other than that 9/10 as a film. As a Trek film, and me not even being a huge Trek fan I have to say it left me wanting something a little more...well Trek.

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Old 06-01-2013, 08:46 PM   #96
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But it isn't.This isn't the "mirror" universe.It's an alternate timeline created by Nero.The fact that Old Spock is in the film to help young Spock should be the tip off.
Yeah, but why does this "Old Spock" have to be the one from the TV series?

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:09 PM   #97
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My only real dislike is the ending.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Khan crashes this big dreadnaught ship into San Francisco most likely killing hundreds of thousands and Spock and Khan duke it out in an epic beatdown then BAM Spock knocks him out 2 weeks pass Kirk is saved and Khan is back in cryo then a year passes and the Enterprise is rebuilt and The End. It was just too neat and quick and I felt Khan was given a terrible sendoff. It was like Abrams wanted this big destructive finale, but had no way to wrap it up so he slapped a band aid on it called it well and rolled the credits.

Other than that 9/10 as a film. As a Trek film, and me not even being a huge Trek fan I have to say it left me wanting something a little more...well Trek.
That entire 3rd Act was just...odd.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Was it ever made clear within the narrative why they needed Khan's blood specifically, and couldn't use one of the other 72 specimens they had available? I get the feeling that whole angle with Kirk's "sacrifice" was something tacked on late in the scripting/production stage, since the set-up for it - with Kirk suddenly looking over at Bones, who I guess was just sitting there tinkering the dead Tribble the whole time, and "casually" asking what he's doing with it - just felt very clunky and out of place.

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Old 06-01-2013, 10:40 PM   #98
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Nero altered the timeline from the day of Kirk's birth,onward.So everything that happened in history before that date still applies.Which is why it's impossible to have Khan suddenly switch form Indian to British.
This is logical......how can this not be understood.

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Old 06-01-2013, 10:54 PM   #99
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I don't know,but I give up trying to explain it to him.

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Old 06-02-2013, 02:48 AM   #100
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That entire 3rd Act was just...odd.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Was it ever made clear within the narrative why they needed Khan's blood specifically, and couldn't use one of the other 72 specimens they had available? I get the feeling that whole angle with Kirk's "sacrifice" was something tacked on late in the scripting/production stage, since the set-up for it - with Kirk suddenly looking over at Bones, who I guess was just sitting there tinkering the dead Tribble the whole time, and "casually" asking what he's doing with it - just felt very clunky and out of place.
My assumption was they only knew Khan's blood worked for sure and thought Khan's blood was the best bet. Though yeah, even that's a shot in the dark if you think about it. Also if you think about it, any of the other 72 subjects had just as likely a chance of success.

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