The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Batman > The Dark Knight Rises

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-06-2013, 07:16 PM   #201
JackWhite
Third Man
 
JackWhite's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,794
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

The initial plan does make a lot of sense and yeah it's very vindictive. I think a lot of us kind of scratched our heads when out of nowhere it turned out to be a suicide mission of sorts.

JackWhite is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 07:19 PM   #202
Snow Queen
Side-Kick
 
Snow Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,303
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
On that topic, one of my favorite bits of dialogue:

"This is a stock exchange. There's no money you can steal."
"Really? Then why are you people here?"

God, I love that whole stock exchange sequence SO much. And it really, really saddens me that the movie didn't explore those themes further.
That was great. And then watching Bane smash the guy's head on the desk in such a nonchalant way was terrifying.

And I love how (this is just from my own eyes, not confirmed in the film or script) the woman walking past the two guys getting their shoes shined is Talia, who Bane then nods to during the scene.

Snow Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 08:01 PM   #203
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,166
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by kvz5 View Post
The Gothamites were just plain misrepresented in TDKR which was weird because the marketing of TDKR hyped the supposed class war that will happen in Gotham. They had very little voice compared to BB and TDK. You know what I loved? That thing they showed at the Man of Steel featurette where they showed the ordinary people getting **** scared, running in all directions, getting inside their houses/stores, and locking doors. That was something I thought we'd see in TDKR that we never did.
Agreed. Gotham lacked a personality in TDKR when it should of been the strongest of all in the trilogy.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 08:25 PM   #204
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,631
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
That was great. And then watching Bane smash the guy's head on the desk in such a nonchalant way was terrifying.

And I love how (this is just from my own eyes, not confirmed in the film or script) the woman walking past the two guys getting their shoes shined is Talia, who Bane then nods to during the scene.
I didn't spot her until someone pointed it out, but I'm in the group that thinks it was her.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson: A Fascinatingly Disturbing Thought
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Marvolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #205
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackWhite View Post
I just finished watching TDKR again and man, that ending really got me. Especially when Gordon says "They know. It was the Batman", then they cut to the Batman statue being revealed. Really great stuff.
Man, I will always say that in the final montage, Gordon is so mouthing "Bat-man?" as he touches the bat signal, lol.

Quote:
It's funny how much the final chase has grown on me over my last few viewings of the film. I remember being so underwhelmed with it when I first saw the film, now I get excited when Batman tells Catwoman that he needs her on the ground and he will be in the air.
It's weird...the two things that bugged me for the longest was Foley and the final chase scene, but I've started to really appreciate both. Watching The Bat move as it does during that scene is so damn beautiful. All three of Batman's vehicles have been special in their own ways, with The Bat really becoming my second favorite vehicle(The Tumbler, The Bat and then the Bat-pod).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
About Bane and Talia's plan, essentially they were pulling the wings off of a fly (Bruce being the fly). Talia and Bane wanted him to see all his work undone and then to blow it up. Its vindictive to say the least.
Exactly. It's really all it comes down to. They broke Bruce Wayne financially and physically(while he was already broken in other areas such as mentally and emotionally) and then they decide to just poison everything Bruce achieved as Batman by bringing to light the Dent lie and then unleashing the mobs back on the streets of Gotham that were in Blackgate Prison for a long eight years only to really just blow it all up in the end. It's as vindictive you as can get, really. Erase everything the hero tried to achieve and then just destroy it in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackWhite View Post
The initial plan does make a lot of sense and yeah it's very vindictive. I think a lot of us kind of scratched our heads when out of nowhere it turned out to be a suicide mission of sorts.
I would say I scratched my head more on what the plan was(the facade). I get that they were on a suicide mission as soon as Bane said he was going to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny, but what confused me at first was the revolution part, and that's mostly because of when Bane entered that football stadium, but now I view it as just giving Gotham's citizens a "fair warning" of what is to come and it was never about giving Gotham the keys to the city and do whatever they want, but just dissecting everything Batman achieved and turning the city upside down by letting the criminals rule and have the poor have their way as well when the rich is taken down a notch. Imo, it's truly a great front in hiding their real agenda even when they semi had the idea out in the open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
That was great. And then watching Bane smash the guy's head on the desk in such a nonchalant way was terrifying.

And I love how (this is just from my own eyes, not confirmed in the film or script) the woman walking past the two guys getting their shoes shined is Talia, who Bane then nods to during the scene.
I would still say it's only just speculative to say it was Talia, but to each their own.

I enjoy the "adlib" of Bane sneezing inside the Stock Exchange building.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-06-2013, 08:56 PM   #206
BatLobsterRises
Lobsterized
 
BatLobsterRises's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 6,716
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
I would say I scratched my head more on what the plan was(the facade). I get that they were on a suicide mission as soon as Bane said he was going to fulfill Ra's al Ghul's destiny, but what confused me at first was the revolution part, and that's mostly because of when Bane entered that football stadium, but now I view it as just giving Gotham's citizens a "fair warning" of what is to come and it was never about giving Gotham the keys to the city and do whatever they want, but just dissecting everything Batman achieved and turning the city upside down by letting the criminals rule and have the poor have their way as well when the rich is taken down a notch. Imo, it's truly a great front in hiding their real agenda even when they semi had the idea out in the open.
May I add, I think the other point of the football stadium attack was for Bane to use the incident as an international stage to show that they had the nuke, killed the only guy who could disarm it, and to send a clear message that Gotham was just one flick away from nuclear annihilation if anyone tried to interfere. The whole revolution angle couldn't have worked if the military was sent in.

I also feel that in a warped way, Bane and Talia did relish in sending a message to the "1%". The disdain they both show Daggett for only valuing the power of money showed that. I think it's possible their hatred of Bruce bled into an overall hatred of "old money", especially when you consider that they both come from nothing. But that's just my interpretation.

Also, I'm in the same boat that loves the final chase now where I wasn't in love with it initially. Now that I've had time to watch it a bunch on Blu-ray and soak up all the detail, it's just a marvelous, thrilling sequence. So fitting that all the Bat-vehicles from the trilogy are involved too.

__________________
IMAGINE THE FIRE
My TDKR Metal cover
My MOS Trailer 3 score recreation
My take on why there is no "DC Films" Division at WB:
http://forums.superherohype.com/show...&postcount=158

Last edited by BatLobsterRises; 06-07-2013 at 02:05 AM.
BatLobsterRises is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 02:37 AM   #207
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Good point. I never really thought of the football stadium just as a way for Bane to get his audience, but it does makes sense rather than it feeling like some contradiction to everything else Bane actually does with the siege or the "revolution".

So, in simple terms:

- Bane finds out about the lie.
- Bane breaks Batman, takes Bruce to the Pit and informs him that he's going to poison Gotham by giving them "hope", while he believes there is true despair with hope as he's going to end that "hope" by destroying Gotham.
- Bane traps the GCPD underneath the city, destroys all bridges to the city except for one and announces that there will be martial law within Gotham while proclaiming this martial law will begin the next day.
- Bane breaks into Blackgate Prison and begins this "revolution" by having the criminals and the poor have their day in the sun while punishing the rich businessmen, capitalists and leftover cops that aren't trapped in the tunnels while this is all just a way to kill Bruce's soul as he watches his greatest victory just break apart until the LoS waits for the nuclear bomb's reactor to heat up.

Imo, I love the plan more and more whenever I think about it and watch TDKR.


Last edited by Anno_Domini; 06-07-2013 at 02:57 AM.
Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 05:18 AM   #208
BatmanBeyond
Future Dark Knight
 
BatmanBeyond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Neo-Gotham
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
And with the final film they cemented the whole trilogy as one big Bruce Wayne story.

You know honestly, I might have to rank Bruce's climb out of the pit as my favorite scene in the film and one of my favorites in the trilogy. No matter how many times I watch it (or any of the three attempts), I just get chills. For a series that is known for being complex and twisty, there's a scene that is incredibly powerful in its simplicity.
In terms of chill-inducing effect and simplicity, I'd rank the batcave scene from BB up there with the best scenes in the trilogy as well.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


That scene is just the definition of 'poetry in motion' for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Despite my issues with this film, this is still one of my favorite scenes in the whole trilogy.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


This scene is, to me at least, proof of Bane's considerable input on the villain plan in TDKR. The 'there can be no true despair without hope' and consequently, the revolution angle of the plan is mainly Bane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
But to me that's a misconception. The vast majority of people in Gotham are scared out of their wits and are holed up in their homes. We catch glimpses of this when with Blake and Fr. Reilly's scene, the scene where Foley decides to stay with his family, the scene where people are coming out of their homes after the nuke goes off. The deserted streets throughout the second and third act. You think most people liked living like that?

We're talking about a city with a population of 12 million. Bane's army and the freed Blackgate prisoners consisted of a hefty part of the revolution. Yep, they picked up some regular citizens along the way like the people throwing stuff during the kangaroo court but those are a drop in the ocean when you take the population of the entire "99%" into account. Plus, Bane had recruited some Gothamites long before setting the plans into motion so those folks might as well be honorary LOS members. Essentially bad guys/henchmen in movie terms.

The thing is, I just think it was completely consistent with the ferry scene and in fact a logical extension of it. The redemption isn't exactly pure in that scene. They voted by an overwhelming majority to blow up the other boat. The only reason they didn't? Fear. Nobody wanted to get their hands dirty. So that's what we see in TDKR when the chips are truly down. Most people are frozen in a state of fear. And yeah, some of the citizens turn out to be pretty rotten and susceptible to mob mentality. I applaud the movie for allowing that to just be and not forcing an all-encompassing redemption into the story. And I love that Batman saves everyone in this film, regardless of who "deserves" saving or not. It makes him even more heroic to all of Gotham and cements him as this legend/savior.

And as far as them giving no indication that people wanted Batman to return...well, if Batman's fire signal inspired Foley, the guy who was trying to bring down the Batman earlier in the film, I'd have to imagine it was a welcome sight for plenty of scared Gothamites too. And no, I didn't need to see a bunch of random extras looking out their window to get that impression
This post is just

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
When you're a show that has the writer of The Dark Knight, Jesus, Ben Linus and produced by JJ Abrams, it's hard to get cancelled.
Cracked.com's Bat Battle: http://www.cracked.com/article_15029...ie-batman.html

Last edited by BatmanBeyond; 06-07-2013 at 05:35 AM.
BatmanBeyond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 07:47 AM   #209
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,166
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond View Post
This scene is, to me at least, proof of Bane's considerable input on the villain plan in TDKR. The 'there can be no true despair without hope' and consequently, the revolution angle of the plan is mainly Bane.
I don't see how it's any different to

Fake Ra's: "You cannot lead these men unless you are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat evil"
Bruce: "And where will I be leading these men?"
Fake Ra's: "Gotham. As Gotham's favored son you will be ideally placed to strike at the heart of criminality."
Bruce: "How?"
Fake Ra's: "Gotham's time has come. Like Constantinople or Rome before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the League of Shadows. It is one we've performed for centuries. Gotham... must be destroyed."

Just because one of the followers is passionate about the plan and ideals of their leader doesn't mean they had input into the plan.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 08:34 AM   #210
BatmanBeyond
Future Dark Knight
 
BatmanBeyond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Neo-Gotham
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I don't see how it's any different to

Fake Ra's: "You cannot lead these men unless you are prepared to do what is necessary to defeat evil"
Bruce: "And where will I be leading these men?"
Fake Ra's: "Gotham. As Gotham's favored son you will be ideally placed to strike at the heart of criminality."
Bruce: "How?"
Fake Ra's: "Gotham's time has come. Like Constantinople or Rome before it the city has become a breeding ground for suffering and injustice. It is beyond saving and must be allowed to die. This is the most important function of the League of Shadows. It is one we've performed for centuries. Gotham... must be destroyed."

Just because one of the followers is passionate about the plan and ideals of their leader doesn't mean they had input into the plan.
I see it as being different because Bane grew up in the prison and had time to observe this 'no true despair without hope' dynamic. Whereas Talia escaped the prison as a child and didn't have time to see that dynamic - and even if she did, she was just a kid while in the prison. But that's just me.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
When you're a show that has the writer of The Dark Knight, Jesus, Ben Linus and produced by JJ Abrams, it's hard to get cancelled.
Cracked.com's Bat Battle: http://www.cracked.com/article_15029...ie-batman.html
BatmanBeyond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 08:52 AM   #211
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,166
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond View Post
I see it as being different because Bane grew up in the prison and had time to observe this 'no true despair without hope' dynamic. Whereas Talia escaped the prison as a child and didn't have time to see that dynamic - and even if she did, she was just a kid while in the prison. But that's just me.
So did Talia. She spent a lot of her childhood in the pit seeing all the hope and despair. She relates her back story back passionately to Bruce. Painful childhood memories can be powerful things to motivate someone.

Bruce Wayne can you tell that

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 10:52 AM   #212
Panthro
Catman Begins
 
Panthro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cat's Lair, Third Earth
Posts: 18,115
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
The Gothamites were just plain misrepresented in TDKR which was weird because the marketing of TDKR hyped the supposed class war that will happen in Gotham. They had very little voice compared to BB and TDK. You know what I loved? That thing they showed at the Man of Steel featurette
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
where they showed the ordinary people getting **** scared, running in all directions, getting inside their houses/stores, and locking doors.
That was something I thought we'd see in TDKR that we never did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
Agreed. Gotham lacked a personality in TDKR when it should of been the strongest of all in the trilogy.
So scenes like the photographers making cheap shot remarks about "stiffs who can barely climb out of their sports cars" as well as Foley point blankly telling one of the stock exchange jerks "I'm not risking my men for your money" (with a SWAT officer adding his own two cents) combined with Selina's own criticisms of the elite aren't enough to give them a "voice"?

__________________
SUPERMAN: You know something Bruce? You're not always right.

New 52 Flash SUCKS
Panthro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 11:34 AM   #213
Tequilla
Side-Kick
 
Tequilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: P
Posts: 1,702
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
But to me that's a misconception. The vast majority of people in Gotham are scared out of their wits and are holed up in their homes. We catch glimpses of this when with Blake and Fr. Reilly's scene, the scene where Foley decides to stay with his family, the scene where people are coming out of their homes after the nuke goes off. The deserted streets throughout the second and third act. You think most people liked living like that?

We're talking about a city with a population of 12 million. Bane's army and the freed Blackgate prisoners consisted of a hefty part of the revolution. Yep, they picked up some regular citizens along the way like the people throwing stuff during the kangaroo court but those are a drop in the ocean when you take the population of the entire "99%" into account. Plus, Bane had recruited some Gothamites long before setting the plans into motion so those folks might as well be honorary LOS members. Essentially bad guys/henchmen in movie terms.

The thing is, I just think it was completely consistent with the ferry scene and in fact a logical extension of it. The redemption isn't exactly pure in that scene. They voted by an overwhelming majority to blow up the other boat. The only reason they didn't? Fear. Nobody wanted to get their hands dirty. So that's what we see in TDKR when the chips are truly down. Most people are frozen in a state of fear. And yeah, some of the citizens turn out to be pretty rotten and susceptible to mob mentality. I applaud the movie for allowing that to just be and not forcing an all-encompassing redemption into the story. And I love that Batman saves everyone in this film, regardless of who "deserves" saving or not. It makes him even more heroic to all of Gotham and cements him as this legend/savior.

And as far as them giving no indication that people wanted Batman to return...well, if Batman's fire signal inspired Foley, the guy who was trying to bring down the Batman earlier in the film, I'd have to imagine it was a welcome sight for plenty of scared Gothamites too. And no, I didn't need to see a bunch of random extras looking out their window to get that impression
Great post

Gotham is way more detailed in Rises than in any of the other Batman movies. The thing is , it excludes random extras fodders , or ridiculous citizen subplots. Everything is organic as the story follows. The whole spectrum of the city and his reaction is masterfully portrayed , either by visual cues , representations or plot driven action.

Tequilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 12:28 PM   #214
BatmanBeyond
Future Dark Knight
 
BatmanBeyond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Neo-Gotham
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
So did Talia. She spent a lot of her childhood in the pit seeing all the hope and despair. She relates her back story back passionately to Bruce. Painful childhood memories can be powerful things to motivate someone.

Bruce Wayne can you tell that
I'm not saying they aren't. But then again, why can't the same thing be valid in Bane's case, especially considering he spent even more time in the pit than Talia and suffered through physical anguish on top of all the psychological anguish as well?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
When you're a show that has the writer of The Dark Knight, Jesus, Ben Linus and produced by JJ Abrams, it's hard to get cancelled.
Cracked.com's Bat Battle: http://www.cracked.com/article_15029...ie-batman.html
BatmanBeyond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 12:37 PM   #215
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond View Post
This scene is, to me at least, proof of Bane's considerable input on the villain plan in TDKR. The 'there can be no true despair without hope' and consequently, the revolution angle of the plan is mainly Bane.
Agreed. I believe Bane had a lot to do with the entire plan except just destroying Gotham which is obviously what Talia wanted. The siege, giving Gotham false hope, breaking Bruce's soul.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 12:40 PM   #216
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,166
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthro View Post
So scenes like the photographers making cheap shot remarks about "stiffs who can barely climb out of their sports cars" as well as Foley point blankly telling one of the stock exchange jerks "I'm not risking my men for your money" (with a SWAT officer adding his own two cents) combined with Selina's own criticisms of the elite aren't enough to give them a "voice"?
Nope, not even close to being enough. The photographers are just typical paparazzi. Selina is relaying second hand information about Gotham's people. Like Joker saying Gotham will turn on Batman. We had to see it for ourselves and we did. Foley was not a representative of Gotham's people. He was the idiot Cop who put chasing Batman before saving hostages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatmanBeyond View Post
I'm not saying they aren't. But then again, why can't the same thing be valid in Bane's case, especially considering he spent even more time in the pit than Talia and suffered through physical anguish on top of all the psychological anguish as well?
I'm not saying it's not valid in Bane's case. But Bane relaying information about the pit doesn't mean it was his input into the plan. Both he and Talia spent years in that pit. That's where their meeting and bond was formed.

"Innocence cannot flower under ground". Talia has more emotional connections to the pit than Bane does, since she was born and raised in the pit, her mother was murdered in the pit, she met Bane in the pit, and she escaped the pit.

Putting Batman in there to rot sounds like something she'd be more likely to think of. Bane of course can relay the hopelessness of being in there just as much as she could. Much like fake Ra's can spew out the ideals and philosophy of the LOS as much as the real Ra's could.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-07-2013, 01:14 PM   #217
BatmanBeyond
Future Dark Knight
 
BatmanBeyond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Neo-Gotham
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Joker View Post
I'm not saying it's not valid in Bane's case. But Bane relaying information about the pit doesn't mean it was his input into the plan. Both he and Talia spent years in that pit. That's where their meeting and bond was formed.

"Innocence cannot flower under ground". Talia has more emotional connections to the pit than Bane does, since she was born and raised in the pit, her mother was murdered in the pit, she met Bane in the pit, and she escaped the pit.

Putting Batman in there to rot sounds like something she'd be more likely to think of. Bane of course can relay the hopelessness of being in there just as much as she could. Much like fake Ra's can spew out the ideals and philosophy of the LOS as much as the real Ra's could.
Considering what we're given in the movie, I don't think we can definitively say which of them had the greater input on the plan really. I mean, sure, it's clear Talia was the one who wanted revenge on Bruce for obvious reasons. But I think it's also arguable (it's a supposition, true) that, given Bane's obvious disdane for the rich which is made apparent throughout the first part of the movie, he would've looked upon throwing a 'man of privilege' such as Bruce in the pit of despair as a sort of poetic justice.

Given their shared experience of the pit and how Bane mentions that that particular aspect shaped the plan greatly, it seems much more likely to me that they both came up with it, but obviously went about it in their own ways.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
When you're a show that has the writer of The Dark Knight, Jesus, Ben Linus and produced by JJ Abrams, it's hard to get cancelled.
Cracked.com's Bat Battle: http://www.cracked.com/article_15029...ie-batman.html
BatmanBeyond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-08-2013, 08:42 AM   #218
batfreakforever
A real fan
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 329
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

I understood the plan from day 1. Never had a problem with Bane's voice. Bluray and Surround sound is the only way I watch movies at home and I try and view a movie in the best way possible ie; Imax,bluray,surround sound etc. But I have viewed the film in all formats to see if I still enjoyed it no matter what. And yes my opinion has never changed. I love the hell out of this film. Never brought the dvd. Why downsize when you have the bluray with 5.1 surround sound.

batfreakforever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2013, 01:54 AM   #219
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Here's something I thought of about the whole "None of it is Bane's plan" topic.

The character who helps Bruce in the Pit did state the prison is Bane's...you'd think Bane does have some role of authority when he seems to be the "owner" of The Pit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises View Post
But to me that's a misconception. The vast majority of people in Gotham are scared out of their wits and are holed up in their homes. We catch glimpses of this when with Blake and Fr. Reilly's scene, the scene where Foley decides to stay with his family, the scene where people are coming out of their homes after the nuke goes off. The deserted streets throughout the second and third act. You think most people liked living like that?

We're talking about a city with a population of 12 million. Bane's army and the freed Blackgate prisoners consisted of a hefty part of the revolution. Yep, they picked up some regular citizens along the way like the people throwing stuff during the kangaroo court but those are a drop in the ocean when you take the population of the entire "99%" into account. Plus, Bane had recruited some Gothamites long before setting the plans into motion so those folks might as well be honorary LOS members. Essentially bad guys/henchmen in movie terms.

The thing is, I just think it was completely consistent with the ferry scene and in fact a logical extension of it. The redemption isn't exactly pure in that scene. They voted by an overwhelming majority to blow up the other boat. The only reason they didn't? Fear. Nobody wanted to get their hands dirty. So that's what we see in TDKR when the chips are truly down. Most people are frozen in a state of fear. And yeah, some of the citizens turn out to be pretty rotten and susceptible to mob mentality. I applaud the movie for allowing that to just be and not forcing an all-encompassing redemption into the story. And I love that Batman saves everyone in this film, regardless of who "deserves" saving or not. It makes him even more heroic to all of Gotham and cements him as this legend/savior.

And as far as them giving no indication that people wanted Batman to return...well, if Batman's fire signal inspired Foley, the guy who was trying to bring down the Batman earlier in the film, I'd have to imagine it was a welcome sight for plenty of scared Gothamites too. And no, I didn't need to see a bunch of random extras looking out their window to get that impression
I was reminded of this post of yours and I definitely agree to this and would like to add a few bits as well.

Bringing up TDK is such a great example. The majority DID vote to blow up the boat containing the criminals as it showed the "regular" people who are not the GCPD are indeed afraid and this film kept it true. To ask why they didn't fight is not understanding the point the films beforehand did make in that because they are simply afraid. They will be even more afraid where a terrorist snatches an entire city up.

Also, there's a contrast to Batman and Talia in the third act. Batman saves Gotham as a WHOLE, even when there's a "war" of those Blackgate inmates teaming up with LoS having no clue that they could die by the hands of the LoS while Talia drives down the street in the Tumbler and says this to the driver: "Shoot them. Shoot them all."


Last edited by Anno_Domini; 06-11-2013 at 02:00 AM.
Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 12:08 AM   #220
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,631
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Does anyone else have a problem with Bruce's climb out of the pit? Its supposed to be this uplifting moment, but even on my first viewing it did nothing for me, because there is absolutely no tension with the way that part of the script is written and constructed. You know he is going to make it. So when he does it just feels like its happening because the plot needs it to happen.

And I went back and watched the whole film again and it really is like a bunch of different films in one. TDK felt like a crime saga of cat and mouse. Very sure of what it wanted to be. This film is all over the place in comparison.


Last edited by Marvolo; 06-19-2013 at 12:14 AM.
Marvolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 12:34 AM   #221
Snow Queen
Side-Kick
 
Snow Queen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,303
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Can't say I feel that way. I have chills every time. It's not happening because the plot needs it to happen, he does it because he earned it. I don't particularly feel like typing out the whole thing so I'm just going to c/p some chunks of something else I posted to explain why I love it.

Quote:
Bruce Wayne at the beginning of the film is hollow. A man without a purpose, waiting to die alone. Bruce set out to become “more than just a man” but, by the start of The Dark Knight Rises, he has become less than a man. A hollow shell. The trilogy has largely been about symbols and their ability to survive and endure what an individual cannot. This film brings us back to this concept and explores the toll it takes on Bruce to turn himself over to an ideal entirely.

When we first meet Bruce in The Dark Knight Rises, he is empty. He has ceased to live and simply exists. He has put so much stock into Batman that to have to give it up and then to try and fail once again to help people as Bruce Wayne has destroyed him. He can never live a normal life again. As Alfred says, “you’ve hung up your cape and you cowl but you haven’t moved on”. He sits in his house and his cave, removed from the world, with only his personal demons to keep him company. He tried to give Gotham a hero with a face and failed, he tried to clean up the city with clean energy and failed, the love of his life has died, his body is ruined and, most importantly, his soul is rotted. Living with this guilt has robbed him of his faith in himself. His fear returned, not as power, but as a crippling inability to see the light. His dark cave has blocked out the light and he sees no way to return to it, no way to return to humanity.

If a man lacks humanity, what does he become? When his soul has been destroyed, his life in ruins, the lives of those around him shattered (Gordon and Alfred have each also lost a lot at the start of the film), and his only victory is based on a lie, what has he fought for? He set out to fight apathy but has succumbed to it himself. How can he fight what he has become? How can he inspire hope when he has none within himself?

In Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, Bruce is warned of this happening many times. Alfred warns him not to leave Bruce Wayne behind but he doesn’t listen. He ignores this warning and, in The Dark Knight, has invested himself in Batman completely. In The Dark Knight, Alfred reminds him of this and tells him to know his limits. Even Rachel gets in on it and tells Bruce that she isn’t sure if the day will come when he no longer needs Batman. Rachel sees him for what he is in The Dark Knight, a man so far devoted to a cause that he has set himself down a path that will inevitably end in self-destruction. He can’t just walk away from this with his soul intact when he doesn’t allow himself to live as Bruce Wayne (explored in a later segment). And this is where he is at the beginning of The Dark Knight Rises, unable to leave Batman behind. The day has not come that he does not need Batman.

Alfred warns Bruce in the film about going back out as Batman not just for physical reasons. Alfred sees clearly what Bruce refuses to accept and fears that, by going out as Batman once more, Bruce will fall back into his monster and not address the larger issues that plague him. Bruce rejects all of this and Alfred leaves to try and show him the error of his ways. But Bruce just dives back into his monster, unprepared physically and psychologically. So he dives deeper than ever before, embarking on a reckless search for Bane. He has become arrogant and cannot see the error if his ways, deciding to dive deeper and deeper and deeper than face his issues. But he needs to confront these issues and that is what the film is about. A control freak who has lost control learning to let go and live.
Then, on his journey in The Pit:

Quote:
The Pit is where majority of Bruce’s character arc occurs. A remote location in an unknown presumably Middle Eastern country where people are thrown to die. But what is the true meaning of The Pit? What is it really? For that, we first must look at a quote Christopher Nolan once used to describe Bruce, “a man frozen in time.” Then we must ask the obvious question: when is he frozen? One could say he’s frozen to when his parents died but that’s not what the film suggests. The film suggests that Bruce is frozen when he fell into the well in the opening of Batman Begins.

The Pit is a very obvious metaphor for the well that Bruce fell in as a child, the well that he is frozen in time within. What happened when he fell in the well? His father pulled him out. He never escaped that well for himself. He’s been trapped in that well his whole life. This is reflected in dialogue such as Alfred’s insistence on Bruce finding a life outside of the cave (which, of course, is connected to the well). Bruce climbing from The Pit is not just an escape or him feeling fear again, instead it’s an escape from a moment he has been frozen in his entire life. He’s escaping the well he never escaped for himself, escaping a mental barrier he’s created and finally ready to escape from. He’s finally ready to let go of the pain and anger that drove him to become an empty shell by the beginning of the film.

He’s finally able to live. This is the darkest irony of the film for me, Bane is the one that allows Bruce to learn how to live by robbing him of the one thing he’s always been able to fall back upon: Batman. Bruce is only able to undergo his character arc when he has been stripped of his illusions and can see clearly what he is without Batman: nothing. This propels him to live as Bruce Wayne, not just as Batman.

I said we’d return to Bane and now is the time. Bane, as mentioned before, is a dark reflection of Bruce. This was most obvious with parallels like both training and then leaving the League (Bane excommunicated, Bruce leaving voluntarily) but is reinforced through some much more subtle parallels between the two. A common complaint about Bane is that him not escaping The Pit weakened him as a character. I disagree. Bane is a monster. A man fuelled by hatred but still grappling with his own humanity. A man divided and unable to reconcile with himself. Bruce escapes from The Pit for himself, finally escaping a mental block and becoming the master of his own destiny. Much like Bruce was stuck in the well still before escaping, Bane is stuck in the Pit still. Bruce was saved from the well by his father and Bane was saved from The Pit by Ra’s. Bane never escaping The Pit is a metaphor for his mind. He never escaped that mental barrier that Bruce does while in The Pit. This mental barrier is allowing anger to rule his life. Bruce allowed this until his escape and Bane allows this until his demise. This is why he fails. Bruce has risen and has moved on from the anger while Bane allows it to control him.
Him escaping the Pit is probably the highlight of the entire trilogy for me. It's the point where he is escaping his pain and learning to live as Bruce Wayne. It's a scene where he overcomes the theme of the film: pain.

And I disagree about it feeling all over the place. I felt it knew what it wanted to be and that to me was a quiet character study wrapped in a war/disaster film.

Snow Queen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 01:07 AM   #222
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Does anyone else have a problem with Bruce's climb out of the pit? Its supposed to be this uplifting moment, but even on my first viewing it did nothing for me, because there is absolutely no tension with the way that part of the script is written and constructed. You know he is going to make it. So when he does it just feels like its happening because the plot needs it to happen.

And I went back and watched the whole film again and it really is like a bunch of different films in one. TDK felt like a crime saga of cat and mouse. Very sure of what it wanted to be. This film is all over the place in comparison.
Him escaping the Pit is the pinnacle of Bruce Wayne's arc with the trilogy and the one thing that finally helps Bruce in moving on, so I would greatly disagree in that it does nothing. It shows that Bruce has literally escaped this overbearing darkness that has surrounded him for 30+ years and I get chills everytime he makes the climb and escapes.

And TKDRises is a disaster film/war epic, simple as that if you ask me. The film definitely knows its purpose as much as TDK. Hell, Nolan has even mentioned it.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 04:39 AM   #223
BatmanBeyond
Future Dark Knight
 
BatmanBeyond's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Neo-Gotham
Posts: 1,414
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

I kind of get where Marvolo's coming from. Don't ge me wrong, I do recognise and appreciate the significance and symbolism of Bruce successfully climbing out of the pit. Like Gotham's Knight points out, Bruce has earned his escape and it's a great moment in the context of the more "human" story Nolan and Co. set out to tell.

That being said, I confess that I also felt a bit underwhelmed about the scene in a way...I don't know, I guess I just had abnormally high expectations for this scene (much like for the entire movie itself). I remember listening to the leaked OST weeks before the movie's release, and playing 'Why Do We Fall?' on repeat obsessively, knowing that it would be Bruce's big moment in TDKR and using it as a motivating factor for my own exams. In this sense, I think I associated the song/moment in the movie with my own high expectations for myself. The human mind has a way of making weird associations like that sometimes.

I do agree that while the execution and scripting of the scene isn't bad by any means, it's also not as close to perfect as a scene of this importance would've warranted. I remember one of the friends I went to see the movie with mentioned after we left the cinema that the 'third time's a charm' aspect of the pit climbing was too predictable and I couldn't help but agree. Despite this, I must say that I've always enjoyed the bats swarming over Bruce while he's on the last leg (pun intended) of his climb. I know some people thought it chessy, but that particular instance (fleeting as it is) is very fulfilling - the bats are leading him towards the light, instead of the darkness of the cave, like they did in BB; not to mention that they serve as a reminder of the fear he's supposed to rediscover, the one he experienced after falling in the well as a child.

At the end of the day, the positives outweigh the negatives for me when it comes to this scene. I guess I was just expecting it to be a more overwhelmingly perfect scene, seeing as it's Bruce's big moment in the film. But if TDKR's taught me anything, it's that if you anticipate and build up something as obsessively as I did TDKR, then there's a strong chance you'll end up disappointed.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight View Post
When you're a show that has the writer of The Dark Knight, Jesus, Ben Linus and produced by JJ Abrams, it's hard to get cancelled.
Cracked.com's Bat Battle: http://www.cracked.com/article_15029...ie-batman.html
BatmanBeyond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 08:27 AM   #224
The Joker
Clown Prince of Crime
 
The Joker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Jollity Farm
Posts: 37,166
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
Does anyone else have a problem with Bruce's climb out of the pit? Its supposed to be this uplifting moment, but even on my first viewing it did nothing for me, because there is absolutely no tension with the way that part of the script is written and constructed. You know he is going to make it. So when he does it just feels like its happening because the plot needs it to happen.

And I went back and watched the whole film again and it really is like a bunch of different films in one. TDK felt like a crime saga of cat and mouse. Very sure of what it wanted to be. This film is all over the place in comparison.
Yeah because he already failed to get out twice. The way the music was going and the prisoners were reacting including the old blind doctor, you knew Bruce was going to make it.

It was a good moment but there was no tension there. I'd have been shocked if he didn't make it the way the scene was building up. It seemed fairly obvious.

__________________
"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"

- The Joker
The Joker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2013, 09:00 AM   #225
kvz5
HBIC
 
kvz5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 20,423
Default Re: Why is everyone slamming TDKR? - Part 1

I absolutely love the pit scene. That's the only thing I like in the 2nd act. It's also one of the few scenes I could re-watch over and over again.

kvz5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.