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Old 06-01-2013, 08:41 PM   #51
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One of the great ironies about Batman is that despite being the sole human representative of The Justice League (insofar as not having superhuman abilities), he is arguably the least human among them. He's cold, calculated, obsessive, paranoid, detached, and above all hyper-intelligent. That's where the Superman/Batman dynamic is so interesting. The demigod is the more human of the two.

That's what I want in a World's Finest/Justice League movie. And that's why I want a rebooted Batman. Neither Bale nor JGL's versions of the character come anywhere close to fitting that bill for me.
This.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:21 PM   #53
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John Blake isn't 'Robin'; he's Batman.
Robin dressing up as Batman doesn't make him Batman.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:33 PM   #54
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Robin dressing up as Batman doesn't make him Batman.


I seriously wonder about this fandom and whether or not people in it actually understood ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about the ending of TDKR and what Nolan's intent was in giving us said ending.

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Old 06-01-2013, 09:35 PM   #55
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Batman is the alter ego, not the character. Dick's mantle as Batman was planted early in Loeb's run and was executed to marvelous effect with Morrison. The greatness of the construction called Batman is that anyone could be him; theoretically and in the DC universe. His lack of super-powers is what allows audiences to relate with him in his own universe (and not the JLA or Justice League). And TDKR reinforces this, by building upon themes/plot-threads planted in BB and TDK.

Having said that, I do not want Blake as Batman. I want Nolan's trilogy to be a self-enclosed entity; making it a quadrilogy (or series) would be akin to making a sequel to the Man with No Name Trilogy. While said trilogy does not have a strong narrative continuity, it has a thematic one; and compromising it is an artistic sin. Sure, it could be done, but, it should not be done.

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"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
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ďAt DC, we really see film and TV as separate worlds."
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Old 06-01-2013, 10:23 PM   #56
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the last 3 movies were amazing but it's time to rwboot! I don't mind the same actor if the costume amd voice are fixed

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Old 06-01-2013, 11:15 PM   #57
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the last 3 movies were amazing but it's time to rwboot! I don't mind the same actor if the costume amd voice are fixed
The voice should be no problem.

Nolan is one of my cinematic heroes, but, I have no damned idea why he felt the need to digitally deepen the voice. It was perfect in BB (one of the few components that worked, anyway.)

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"I've known since I first took over the series that I wanted to eventually have someone else pick up the hammer," says the writer. "It's kind of a time-honored Thor tradition at this point, isn't it? Going back to the days of Beta Ray Bill."
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Old 06-02-2013, 02:48 PM   #58
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I pretty much agree with all of this. Not much for me to say. Wonderful post.
Cool, glad we're on the same page here.

The simple fact is I just don't think JGL would make a very imposing Batman. It's just not a role I'd care to see him play, particularly if the next incarnation will one day be part of a larger DCU.

That said, I think JGL would make a great Nightwing. And the comics have obviously played with the idea of Grayson taking up the mantle and showed how he'd be a different Batman than Bruce. As has Batman Beyond. I think JGL fit the role of a "young Batman protege" perfectly. I could see him playing Grayson, McGuinness, etc. Blake was a lot of that rolled into one. That's why I love the TDKR ending but wouldn't care to see him actually put on a cowl. I like the idea of Batman as a legacy character, but in comics, cartoons, and other media. For the movies it's gotta be Bruce. UNLESS they made a Batman Beyond movie (which I'd be in favor of), but it would still have to be at least a generation past Blake if it were in the Nolanverse (which it wouldn't be). But I'd be more accepting of a less physically imposing/intense Batman in that scenario, because a Batman in the future would have way more of a technological edge and could probably afford to be. Plus I wouldn't just want to see a Bruce clone (lol see what I did there?)

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Old 06-02-2013, 03:26 PM   #59
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If they were to continue the Nolanverse for the future, I still think the way to go is to have Blake be Batman successfully in Gotham for a while while Bruce is Batman in the Justice League. However, they don't need to make a movie about Blake.

After JL, JL2 (or whenever Bale leaves), start the next solo movie with Blake dying in an impossible to win situation (not failing due to a lack of training) and have Bruce come back to Gotham, putting the burden and guilt back on himself, bringing him back to his default dark state for the rest of time, or whenever the DCCU stops, if it ever does. (and in this movie, I'd imagine a full recast (making the return of a recast Joker not seem out of place), new director, new musical themes, shift in visual direction, etc).

When he's back, he immediately decides that this time he has to train his Batman-successor from a younger age, like one of teens from the orphanage above; enter Dick Grayson, who recently got dropped there after his parents' death.

Have the Robin name come from Robin Blake. This way, Blake serves as a sort of reverse Terry McGinnis, a Batman successor before Robin is introduced, opposed to afterwards.

(thus why I think Blake should be Batman, like Terry; not Nightwing, which should be Dick Grayson's identity).


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Old 06-02-2013, 04:00 PM   #60
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You reboot because why should someone not named Christopher Nolan continue the Dark Knight Legend? I love those movies, but I, just like everyone else in the world would want to do my own version of Batman, not be forced to hold and continue something I had nothing to do with, if ever given the prestigious chance.

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Old 06-02-2013, 05:09 PM   #61
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I seriously wonder about this fandom and whether or not people in it actually understood ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about the ending of TDKR and what Nolan's intent was in giving us said ending.
Im not sure you understood the ending completely. The ending is up to the audience in a lot of ways. He could be Batman, but he doesn't have to put on a cowl in order to carry the symbol. The symbol of Batman actually isn't about the suit or the theme of bats (which is a very personal connection to Bruce only). It's about what it stands for. Blake doesn't even have to suit up at ALL and still carry the torch. He could be his own vigilante (Robin, Nightwing).

There's a reason why they didn't show a specific bat-suit at the very end when JGL rises up on that platform in the cave. We can leave the movie with whatever scenario we want in our mind, as long as JGL is in Gotham and inspired by what Batman did...for a whole new generation. And any director could pick up the pieces if they wanted to (and were allowed to) whether that's a JGL batman, nightwing or robin.

I believe the whole point of that ending was to show the concept to the world, that the symbol of Batman lives on, without the intention of showing Blake suit up. This is why Bruce will be the Batman in JL (Bale or reboot). Not to mention it's the first JL ever, it has to be Bruce and Clark.

You do realize that Justice League will get a sequel and a possible 3rd movie right? If Bale was back, they could get away without doing solo movies. But if it's Blake or a rebooted Bruce Wayne, they'll be wanting more solo movies as well. I seriously doubt we'll be seeing Blake as Batman for 3 or 4 films. Sounds way too far-fetched.

With JGL, there's no guarantee that a first Justice League will even get a sequel, no matter how much buzz he gets as an actor.


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Old 06-02-2013, 05:26 PM   #62
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If they were to continue the Nolanverse for the future, I still think the way to go is to have Blake be Batman successfully in Gotham for a while. However, they don't need to make a movie about Blake.

After JL, JL2 (or whenever Bale leaves), start the next solo movie with Blake dying in an impossible to win situation (not failing due to a lack of training) and have Bruce come back to Gotham, putting the burden and guilt back on himself, bringing him back to his default dark state for the rest of time, or whenever the DCCU stops, if it ever does. (and in this movie, I'd imagine a full recast (making the return of a recast Joker not seem out of place), new director, new musical themes, shift in visual direction, etc).

When he's back, he immediately decides that this time he has to train his Batman-successor from a younger age, like one of teens from the orphanage above; enter Dick Grayson, who recently got dropped there after his parents' death.

Have the Robin name come from Robin Blake. This way, Blake serves as a sort of reverse Terry McGinnis, a Batman successor before Robin is introduced, opposed to afterwards.

(thus why I think Blake should be Batman, like Terry; not Nightwing, which should be Dick Grayson's identity).
You know, I like this idea. Even though I don't see it happening, or Nolan allowing his universe to be used in such a way...I think that's great man.

If WB really wanted to, they could easily bring Bale back and eventually re-cast him. Using TDK-T as the beginning of a very long franchise that continues like the Bond films.

Like you said, use Blake as a temporary Batman successor...you don't even have to show him in the cowl. Kill him off, use his birthname to give the "Robin" moniker to a young Dick Grayson. Luring Bruce back to Gotham after a couple of peaceful years outside of the city. He's back refreshed after a couple of huge Justice League movies. By the time he's back you have a re-cast for Bruce, a new director, new Alfred (who could get killed off in an upcoming solo film), a new Gordon. Lucius Fox could retire during the JLA saga so you don't need him in the future films.

A new more fantastical look, suit & rogues gallery for this veteran Batman who is in his 40's.

Grayson is Robin. We get the return of the Joker played by someone else..as you said.

I know some people don't like that idea..but it would be a smart thing for WB to do. Nolan would hate it, but I say who cares. It would never have to be rebooted, all in loose continuity. They could eventually do Batman Beyond with Terry as well.

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Old 06-03-2013, 01:19 AM   #63
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I think too much effort is put into explaining Blake and Bruce away. Reboot the Batverse but just don't start all the way from the start. Keep most of Nolans elements but ignore some stuff like two Face dying, Ra's being Ducard and such. I mean honestly just do what the comics do. Acknowledge some past history but don't make it concrete enough that you can't talk your way out of it.


I don't want to see Blake be Batman. I don't want him meeting Superman. I want Bruce Wayne meeting Superman. I want a Bruce Wayne that has or could have Dick Grayson as Robin.


Basically Nolans Batman is fine for a trilogy but it is not the definitive Batman and I would like something more Batman.

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Old 06-03-2013, 03:55 AM   #64
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You know, I like this idea. Even though I don't see it happening, or Nolan allowing his universe to be used in such a way...I think that's great man.

If WB really wanted to, they could easily bring Bale back and eventually re-cast him. Using TDK-T as the beginning of a very long franchise that continues like the Bond films.

Like you said, use Blake as a temporary Batman successor...you don't even have to show him in the cowl. Kill him off, use his birthname to give the "Robin" moniker to a young Dick Grayson. Luring Bruce back to Gotham after a couple of peaceful years outside of the city. He's back refreshed after a couple of huge Justice League movies. By the time he's back you have a re-cast for Bruce, a new director, new Alfred (who could get killed off in an upcoming solo film), a new Gordon. Lucius Fox could retire during the JLA saga so you don't need him in the future films.

A new more fantastical look, suit & rogues gallery for this veteran Batman who is in his 40's.

Grayson is Robin. We get the return of the Joker played by someone else..as you said.

I know some people don't like that idea..but it would be a smart thing for WB to do. Nolan would hate it, but I say who cares. It would never have to be rebooted, all in loose continuity. They could eventually do Batman Beyond with Terry as well.
Thanks. However, I initially wasn't thinking that Bruce would be 'refreshed'. I don't really see how rest could repair his cartilage, etc.

I imagined that he would form and participate in the JL out of necessity (Blake being busy or out of commission). If he doesn't, he believes that he won't exactly have a normal life to run back to; there's no real option there; he's not only suiting up to save others but also to save the future Alfred wants for him. Would Alfred be disappointed in him for that?
(this sort of conflict never existed before for Bruce, as he never had to fight crime in Gotham to ensure his own safety. However, that's a different story with a worldwide, humanity-ending, JL level threat.)

That being said, in the JL movie(s), with his regained 'will to live'/'fear of death', perhaps he makes sure to be hyper-prepared, using his head to avoid using his body as much as possible (pretty much the opposite of the Bane scenario), always with the right gadget, as not to get himself into situations where he gets beat to a pulp. He can also have an improved suit, just in case, doing as much as he can to honour Alfred's wishes, while still doing what's necessary.

However, given that a brittle Bruce is probably limiting for the future, in the next solo Batman movie perhaps get the supernatural in there right off the bat. After an opening action sequence ending with Batman's death (Blake), have Bruce (the new actor) waking up in the mountains (ala Batman Begins) face first in the snow, unsure of how he got there; his hands are bloodstained. In a medical exam it's revealed that his body mysteriously has none of the problems listed in TDKR. On his journey home he is informed of Blake's death and instead returns to Gotham. In the many nightmares he has during the movie he remembers that he was healed in a Lazarus Pit, captured by LoS and Ra's, who is still alive (a mirror to BBegins). And given the recent 'death in the family', have the movie be about death/life, letting go, etc; whether the lazarus pit should be used or not. Oh, I think the title "Batman Reborn" or "The Dark Knight Reborn" would be especially fitting here.

And 'Storyteller', yes, a reboot would be simpler. I'm just saying that if they did stick with TDKT, this is how I'd do it.


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Old 06-03-2013, 04:01 PM   #65
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So you want the first ever Justice League or Batman/Superman movie to feature "Robin John Blake" and not Bruce Wayne?


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Old 06-03-2013, 06:27 PM   #66
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Where did this notion come from than John Blake is Batman now? He's not the next Batman, he's Robin. I repeat that. John Blake is Robin. That's why he knew who Bruce was. Because the two of them shared that connection. They're linked. As if calling the guy ROBIN at the end of the movie wasn't enough.

This trilogy was Nolan's "realistic" version of the Batman mythos. In Nolan's version, Batman's sidekick isn't a boy wonder who doubles as a caped crusader like Batman. He's a cop who helped Batman save the day. I don't think the film suggests that Blake is going to take the mantle of Batman and spend his nights hovering on rooftops. The ending suggests only that he will carry on the hero's tradition.

In short, no one wants to see Superman team up with Robin.

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Old 06-03-2013, 06:59 PM   #67
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Robin dressing up as Batman doesn't make him Batman.
Dick was a great Batman though.

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Old 06-03-2013, 07:44 PM   #68
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Where did this notion come from than John Blake is Batman now? He's not the next Batman, he's Robin. I repeat that. John Blake is Robin. That's why he knew who Bruce was. Because the two of them shared that connection. They're linked. As if calling the guy ROBIN at the end of the movie wasn't enough.

This trilogy was Nolan's "realistic" version of the Batman mythos. In Nolan's version, Batman's sidekick isn't a boy wonder who doubles as a caped crusader like Batman. He's a cop who helped Batman save the day. I don't think the film suggests that Blake is going to take the mantle of Batman and spend his nights hovering on rooftops. The ending suggests only that he will carry on the hero's tradition.

In short, no one wants to see Superman team up with Robin.
THANK YOU. It's something people don't understand around here. He's a version of Robin. Batman is dead and honored as a statue, and unless Bruce comes back to Gotham dressed as Batman (which probably wouldn't happen) the city won't be seeing Batman again. Robin carries forth the tradition and meaning of the symbol but not with a cowl. Which is why he doesn't need the exact same training that Bruce got. Which is another thing that people seem to be stuck on. "How could he do that? Blake has no training". Not only does he have time to train, but he wouldn't need to climb mountains to find the League of Shadows either. He is NOT the Batman.

Sometimes I try to be fair and include a "he could be batman along with other identities". But that's me trying to be nicer to people who have a different opinion than mine. But ill be straight-forward. I don't believe he's Batman at all, and that's why he's not going to be in JL. He could be Nightwing sure or something else but he's no bat.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:19 PM   #69
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Where did this notion come from than John Blake is Batman now?
The Dark Knight Rises... specifically the ending. The film's thematic core also states pretty clearly what Nolan's intent was in ending the film the way he did.

Nolan giving John Blake the first name of Robin was an in-joke for the fans and nothing more.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:25 PM   #70
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I think that people want Robin to be Batman simply because they want the trilogy's universe to continue. I understand that, but him appearing in the Justice League movie would not have the same thematic structure or tone that everyone loved TDK trilogy for, rendering the idea moot.

Not to mention, the fan backlash would be enormous. World's Finest has Bruce Wayne as Batman. Why not have Miles Morales as Spider-Man in the next movie by that logic? An all new made up character should not be used in blockbuster film series, they should use the character that is the entire reason the comics became popular in the first place.

TDK series is over. Maybe a teeny tiny chance Christian Bale will return as Batman, but I'm definitely not holding my breath.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:29 PM   #71
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^ It's not about "what people want"; it's about what Nolan showed us and intended to establish with not only the actual ending of the film, but its thematic narrative as well.

The reasons I would like to see the TDKT universe continued is because it not only has a tone similar to Man of Steel but also remains viable storytelling ground, and the reason I've mentioned Blake being in the Batsuit is because of the way TDKR ended and what Nolan was clearly trying to tell and show us with said ending.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
Quote:
"There is no "supposed to be." It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:44 PM   #72
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You cannot possibly know he becomes Batman. He definitely could, but he could be Nightwing, or not a vigilante at all. I doubt he's a vigilante code named Robin because... That'd just be a dumb idea on his part.

Lets assume he was meant to become Batman, though. If that's the case, he will definitely not be in World's Finest/Justice League. Because it IS about what the people want. They're not going to use an idea they know people will hate. They may very well love the characters, but they need money. Nolan's intention remains for HIS universe. They're not going to blindly follow it with a non-Bruce Batman in future movies. Therefore, it's most logical that Justice League is a separate universe.

Nolan specifically said several times that TDKR is the last movie. It has a beginning, middle, and end. Highly unlikely they would take what is clearly a conclusion and be like "Bruce suddenly isn't over it! Character development bye bye!" Alfred being happy Bruce has moved on? Gone. Bruce living life with Selina in peace? Gone. Basically completely erases all the development of TDKR.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:46 PM   #73
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^ Actually, I CAN say with certainty that Blake becomes Batman because that was the entire point of TDKR's ending.

I've already stated why I believe that it is entirely within the realm of possibility for Warner Bros. to continue to utilize the TDKT universe with or without Nolan's involvement, but in the end, the company will do what they think is in their best interest.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
Quote:
"There is no "supposed to be." It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:56 PM   #74
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I must have missed the scene where he put on the cape and cowl, and the part he said "I am Batman", and the part he was trained to fight without having to use guns, and the part he gained Wayne Enterprises' resources, how to use them, and how to fix them. It's pretty clear he was intended to become some sort of vigilante, but Batman himself when he's supposed to be dead and had a statue built of him? Kinda takes away from the sacrifice.

I'm playing devil's advocate. I agree that he became a vigilante of some sort, at least for a while, and the likelihood of him being Batman is there. But you can't KNOW that. In your mind, he certainly did (it was left open so we can make our own interpretations to an extent). But he could just as easily be Nightwing. Until they make a sequel, which they won't, it's in the air.

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Old 06-03-2013, 09:00 PM   #75
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^ Nolan didn't have to show any of that because the point was already made with what we WERE shown (and told).

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Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
Quote:
"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
Quote:
"There is no "supposed to be." It's an adaptation, a word that literally means change. Why bother making a new version if it doesn't offer a fresh approach?" - Christopher L. Bennett
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