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Old 07-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #451
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

I wouldn't doubt it.

But something I noticed in Avengers the other day. I am pretty sure there was an ultron easter egg in avengers 1. When the helicarrier was attacked, right before Hill shouts grenade, in the backround on one of the screens, it seems like his face is there. There is a grey oval on the screen for a split second, with two red dots where eyes would be, and a third where his mouth would be, I mean, it's there for literally less than a second, blink and you'll miss it, but it caught my eye, cause when I saw that in the backround, that was the first thing that came to mind

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:54 PM   #452
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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we don't know which side, most are assuming both.
I hope it's as teammates because I don't see the general audience accepting them as villains.

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personally, I just hope they say,

"They have powers"
"How?"
"They were born with them"

fin.

I don't think most people need much of an explanation these days
Agreed. When Capt. America can see Thor and Loki in action and deny them as gods, there's no reason to get technical.

Btw, yes I know you were getting at the whole mutants thing but your post can work several other ways.

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Old 07-08-2013, 05:40 PM   #453
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Mostly it comes down to people misunderstanding what 'science' is. They assume it must be some kind of "tools vs spellcasting" dichotomy, when it isn't. Science is simply the rigorous attempt to understand and describe the universe around you; magic isn't its opposite, its just something we don't yet understand.

Now, there is an opposite of science, and that's *superstition*. However, superstition is not magic, and magic is only superstition when it doesn't actually work. Magic, as it exists in nearly every story, is something that either could be subject to the scientific method, or actually already is subject to such ( what do you think a classical wizard is doing when he's experimenting? ).

As for how magic will be in the MCU? I suspect that it will have a "scientific" justification, in the broad and vague sense. It has rules, and causes, and methodologies. Some of its bases have probably been touched upon by contemporary science even, like the "brain slot" and the studies of Tesseract energy. Its just that this won't actually be particularly important to, say, Dr Strange, and he's not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to use the observed properties of spellcasting to achieve unification between quantum mechanics and relativity. He's going to be fighting other magic-using entities from other dimensions.

( The Asgardians probably *do* properly understand the science of "magic", though to them "magic" is probably not a singular force so much as a couple different things commonly mixed up by less advanced societies. )
Well said.

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Old 07-08-2013, 07:55 PM   #454
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

He's spittin science, B.

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:34 AM   #455
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

I wonder if they introduce Thunderbolts it would be cool A-team vs T-team

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:40 AM   #456
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Mostly it comes down to people misunderstanding what 'science' is. They assume it must be some kind of "tools vs spellcasting" dichotomy, when it isn't. Science is simply the rigorous attempt to understand and describe the universe around you; magic isn't its opposite, its just something we don't yet understand.

Now, there is an opposite of science, and that's *superstition*. However, superstition is not magic, and magic is only superstition when it doesn't actually work. Magic, as it exists in nearly every story, is something that either could be subject to the scientific method, or actually already is subject to such ( what do you think a classical wizard is doing when he's experimenting? ).

As for how magic will be in the MCU? I suspect that it will have a "scientific" justification, in the broad and vague sense. It has rules, and causes, and methodologies. Some of its bases have probably been touched upon by contemporary science even, like the "brain slot" and the studies of Tesseract energy. Its just that this won't actually be particularly important to, say, Dr Strange, and he's not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to use the observed properties of spellcasting to achieve unification between quantum mechanics and relativity. He's going to be fighting other magic-using entities from other dimensions.

( The Asgardians probably *do* properly understand the science of "magic", though to them "magic" is probably not a singular force so much as a couple different things commonly mixed up by less advanced societies. )
I still don't think it should be explained. You either like the concept of Magik, or you don't.
Avengers really isn't the place to waste time on it. I'm HOPING we are going to get Dr. Strange as a movie to HELP with that in stead of trying to squeeze it all into Thor films, even tho some of THEIR magik in the books is slightly different from Strange's magiks.

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:46 AM   #457
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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I wonder if they introduce Thunderbolts it would be cool A-team vs T-team
After a few more years (more Super Villians) and possibly in Agents of SHIELD

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Old 07-09-2013, 02:05 AM   #458
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

Where? I've looked at all the screens and see nothing
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I wouldn't doubt it.

But something I noticed in Avengers the other day. I am pretty sure there was an ultron easter egg in avengers 1. When the helicarrier was attacked, right before Hill shouts grenade, in the backround on one of the screens, it seems like his face is there. There is a grey oval on the screen for a split second, with two red dots where eyes would be, and a third where his mouth would be, I mean, it's there for literally less than a second, blink and you'll miss it, but it caught my eye, cause when I saw that in the backround, that was the first thing that came to mind

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Old 07-09-2013, 03:17 AM   #459
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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See, I found there to be enough characterization on the writers and Tom's part to make me understand where he was coming from, but Loki was still shown to be the one behind the deaths of the Asgardians in Odin's Weapon's Vault. That showed that his destiny had been on the course he is now charting for some time. To me, anyway.

Loki's situation made him somewhat sympathetic, but as you say he was responsible for the deaths of fellow Asgardians even before he found out about his true parentage. He betrayed Asgard to Laufey and the Frost Giants out of petty spite and jealousy, hoping to hurt Thor, without knowing the reason Odin chose his brother to be king. The revelation that Loki was adopted became his justification for all the evil he visited upon Asgard after the fact, rather than serving as the motivation for his behavior. That is a fact that Loki (and his fans) conveniently overlooks whenever his crimes are discussed.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:52 AM   #460
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^Loki fans would say he is not guilty by reason of insanity.... HIS INSANE HAWTNESS!! WHOO-HOO! (I'll let myself out.)

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:28 AM   #461
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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^Loki fans would say he is not guilty by reason of insanity.... HIS INSANE HAWTNESS!! WHOO-HOO! (I'll let myself out.)
....nobody wants to see THAT!
tho Loki does look like he's wearing a rain jacket, Loki's a flasher!

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Old 07-09-2013, 11:46 AM   #462
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Where? I've looked at all the screens and see nothing
The screen is red. The camera is on fury, then hill walks by, the angle changes, the camera is in front of her, then the next scene is the grenade on the ground, then it shows her yelling grendade!. Before the grenade is on the ground, when the camera is facing her, and she's walking, it's there. There is one screen in the backround, that is sort of red, and right when hill makes a hand gesture (could have actually been a hint, that there was an easter egg there) for like a second, it seems like his face is on the screen, just for a second. It could have been nothing, but it caught my eye, I rewound it, put it in slow mo, paused it, and spent a solid 45 minutes on that one scene (yes, I have no life lol) but to me, that's what it looked like.

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Loki's situation made him somewhat sympathetic, but as you say he was responsible for the deaths of fellow Asgardians even before he found out about his true parentage. He betrayed Asgard to Laufey and the Frost Giants out of petty spite and jealousy, hoping to hurt Thor, without knowing the reason Odin chose his brother to be king. The revelation that Loki was adopted became his justification for all the evil he visited upon Asgard after the fact, rather than serving as the motivation for his behavior. That is a fact that Loki (and his fans) conveniently overlooks whenever his crimes are discussed.
YES. Which supports what I've been saying all along, and my disputes against Elizah72, WHICH I WAS RIGHT ABOUT lol, Loki is still Loki. He was still evil and twisted from the beginning, all they did was add some depth to him.

Sort of like what they are doing with Thanos rising. Adding a bit of a back story. But at the end of the day, Loki, MCU or not, is still the God of mischief, and his annoying fans need to realize that. Loki is arguably one Marvel's top 10 villains, they are NOT going to turn him into what the fangirls think he is lol

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Old 07-09-2013, 12:25 PM   #463
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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At this point, I gotta think MoE is not a part of A2. I hope not, anyway. Nothing points to it aside from fan speculation.
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Yeah, I'm not convinced with the Masters of Evil either. It doesn't seem like the correct environment has been created for a bunch of super villains to decide to team up before the inevitable betrayal. I'm still leaning towards Thanos myself.
The thing that gets me is the Triskelion is said to be in Cap 2. Since there's a supervillain prison on it, I can just imagine a breakout in TA2 and the Masters forming. I think I heard that Cap 2 is the phase 2 movie that is tied the most into TA2's plotline. This prison foreshadowing could be one of those ties, along with many more.

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Old 07-09-2013, 01:47 PM   #464
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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The thing that gets me is the Triskelion is said to be in Cap 2. Since there's a supervillain prison on it, I can just imagine a breakout in TA2 and the Masters forming. I think I heard that Cap 2 is the phase 2 movie that is tied the most into TA2's plotline. This prison foreshadowing could be one of those ties, along with many more.
I'm on your side here, and we can rub it in their faces when we are right :P

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Old 07-09-2013, 03:45 PM   #465
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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it's magic, pure and simple.
Magic IS science... There's no "explaining magic away by science" They're the same thing. Accept it.

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Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
Mostly it comes down to people misunderstanding what 'science' is. They assume it must be some kind of "tools vs spellcasting" dichotomy, when it isn't. Science is simply the rigorous attempt to understand and describe the universe around you; magic isn't its opposite, its just something we don't yet understand.

Now, there is an opposite of science, and that's *superstition*. However, superstition is not magic, and magic is only superstition when it doesn't actually work. Magic, as it exists in nearly every story, is something that either could be subject to the scientific method, or actually already is subject to such ( what do you think a classical wizard is doing when he's experimenting? ).

As for how magic will be in the MCU? I suspect that it will have a "scientific" justification, in the broad and vague sense. It has rules, and causes, and methodologies. Some of its bases have probably been touched upon by contemporary science even, like the "brain slot" and the studies of Tesseract energy. Its just that this won't actually be particularly important to, say, Dr Strange, and he's not going to spend a whole lot of time trying to use the observed properties of spellcasting to achieve unification between quantum mechanics and relativity. He's going to be fighting other magic-using entities from other dimensions.

( The Asgardians probably *do* properly understand the science of "magic", though to them "magic" is probably not a singular force so much as a couple different things commonly mixed up by less advanced societies. )
This ^

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Old 07-09-2013, 03:55 PM   #466
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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Magic IS science... There's no "explaining magic away by science" They're the same thing. Accept it.


This ^
It's not that cut and dried.
Science fantasy has been a subgenre for centuries now. Some authors in that subgenre choose to use Clarke's Law to "explain magic away by science"; others give magic the upper hand and say that spellcasters are actually violating natural laws of physics by having power *over* it. The Dr. Strange school of thought has always tended to weigh far more heavily towards the latter rather than the former. I see no reason to believe that the Dr. Strange movie will take a different tack on that.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:13 PM   #467
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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It's not that cut and dried.
Science fantasy has been a subgenre for centuries now. Some authors in that subgenre choose to use Clarke's Law to "explain magic away by science"; others give magic the upper hand and say that spellcasters are actually violating natural laws of physics by having power *over* it. The Dr. Strange school of thought has always tended to weigh far more heavily towards the latter rather than the former. I see no reason to believe that the Dr. Strange movie will take a different tack on that.
"Magic is just science we don't understand yet. Arthur C. Clarke." - Jane Foster. Why is it so hard for you to swallow?

That's just the way it is. In fact, in the MCU, science is just as unbelievable as magic is. The stuff Tony Stark is able to come up with is scientifically impossible in the real world, just as magic is, but in the MCU it's legit science.

In short, there is a huge difference between MCU science (Which includes magic spells, cubes of self sustaining energy, armor that is able to do all of the stuff that Iron Man can do) and real world science.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:20 PM   #468
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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"Magic is just science we don't understand yet. Arthur C. Clarke." - Jane Foster. Why is it so hard for you to swallow?

That's just the way it is. In fact, in the MCU, science is just as unbelievable as magic is. The stuff Tony Stark is able to come up with is scientifically impossible in the real world, just as magic is, but in the MCU it's legit science.

There is nothing remotely scientific or even science fiction about any given Dr. Strange comic. It's sheer fantasy, sheer supernatural horror. There's no advanced technology at work there, no aliens by any other name. There's spell-slinging, there's Heaven and Hell, there's demons and angels, and alternate dimensions, there's the Cthulhu mythos, there's Vapors of Valthorr and Iron Bands of the Vishanti and the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth and all that jazz.

Maybe you choose to dig Clarke's Law out of there somewhere, somewhen. But to me and the writers and the readers of Dr. Strange, it's pretty clearly reality-bending magic that has no ties to science fiction whatsoever.

Why is that hard for you to swallow? Do you actually read Dr. Strange?

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:22 PM   #469
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

"Do you actually read...?"

The "Do you even lift, bro?" of comic fights.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:28 PM   #470
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There is nothing remotely scientific or even science fiction about any given Dr. Strange comic. It's sheer fantasy, sheer supernatural horror. There's no advanced technology at work there, no aliens by any other name. There's spell-slinging, there's Heaven and Hell, there's demons and angels, and alternate dimensions, there's the Cthulhu mythos, there's Vapors of Valthorr and Iron Bands of the Vishanti and the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth and all that jazz.

Maybe you choose to dig Clarke's Law out of there somewhere, somewhen. But to me and the writers and the readers of Dr. Strange, it's pretty clearly reality-bending magic that has no ties to science fiction whatsoever.
There are not enough facepalm pics on the internet for this post.

"Your ancestors called it magic, and you call it science. Well, I come from a place where they're one and the same thing" - Thor

MCU science = MCU magic. FACT.

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Do you actually read Dr. Strange?
1. Yes

2. Why is this even relevant to the discussion? It has nothing to do with magic and science in the MCU.

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Old 07-09-2013, 04:44 PM   #471
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"Do you actually read...?"

The "Do you even lift, bro?" of comic fights.
That's not the intent. I'm not trying to insult here, I'm asking a genuine question. It just seems odd to me that someone could read a Dr. Strange comic book and say, "well yeah, that *could* happen, within the context of science we just don't understand yet."

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There are not enough facepalm pics on the internet for this post.

"Your ancestors called it magic, and you call it science. Well, I come from a place where they're one and the same thing" - Thor

MCU science = MCU magic. FACT.


1. Yes

2. Why is this even relevant to the discussion? It has nothing to do with magic and science in the MCU.
MCU science = MCU magic....according to Asgard.
Dr. Strange likely has a far, far different take on that observation, and could probably show Thor himself exactly how they're different.

I don't know what you're on about, anyway. I've got no quarrel with you....just seems like a circular argument here. I think you and I probably have very different definitions of both "science" and "magic," but if we accepted each other's definitions, we'd probably both realize that we're essentially saying the same thing.

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:16 PM   #472
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

What the Asgardians think and do is not the end all be all of an entire universe.

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:36 PM   #473
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

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"Magic is just science we don't understand yet. Arthur C. Clarke." - Jane Foster. Why is it so hard for you to swallow?

That's just the way it is. In fact, in the MCU, science is just as unbelievable as magic is. The stuff Tony Stark is able to come up with is scientifically impossible in the real world, just as magic is, but in the MCU it's legit science.

In short, there is a huge difference between MCU science (Which includes magic spells, cubes of self sustaining energy, armor that is able to do all of the stuff that Iron Man can do) and real world science.
Here it is. I think the problem is that some people are associating the word SCIENCE with TECHNOLOGY

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:54 PM   #474
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Here it is. I think the problem is that some people are associating the word SCIENCE with TECHNOLOGY
Exactly

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Old 07-09-2013, 09:46 PM   #475
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 3

THough, In Sam's defense, Thor's comments can be interpreted in many different ways. There hasn't been enough of this science/magic stuff in the MCU thus far, so all that is being argued right now, is who's opinion is more valid. I have none, so I won't voice an opinion on the matter as of now, but I just see this thing going in circles, why don't you two kiss, and makeup, then you can continue it after thor: the dark world, if more magic related stuff comes to light :P

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