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Old 06-29-2013, 04:33 PM   #451
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As for as CBMs go, yes, I would call the character arc and subtleties more complex than what the rest of the genre has to offer. I quoted your post since you asked what Anno found to be complex about the story presented. I replied with why I, someone who also likes TDKR, felt that way myself.

If you feel that it would make you look like a huge dick, fair enough. I wouldn't have seen it that way myself (unless, of course, you were insulting me personally in it but, judging from the posts of yours I've seen, you're a respectful and intelligent individual and I doubt you would).

I didn't want you to state anything. You could state anything you wanted to. Doesn't change my opinion. I was just linking an explanation on my thoughts on why it is a more complex story and better film than you give it credit for. You disagree, that's cool. I didn't expect to change your mind, I was just giving an explanation on why I feel that way.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:18 PM   #452
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I do feel that, were TDKR to exist without TDK or BB, opinions of it would be different, both for better and for worse. Some give it a hard time for falling well short of its predecessors, while others interpret virtues into it because those virtues were apparent in those preceding films.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:22 PM   #453
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If TDKR were to exist without BB and TDK, it would even be a different film.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:23 PM   #454
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I don't see what the problem is with Gordon reading Tale of Two Cities. First of all it's just a nod to a source of inspiration for the movie. Second of all, it's established earlier in the movie (you can see the book at his bedside in the hospital) so it's not like it came out of nowhere in the plot. So is it that a middle aged cop can't be depicted as semi-literate? I mean, nevermind the fact that it's high school level reading, God forbid Gordon is portrayed as a man with some culture and taste.

Milost, as much as you're convinced that fans of this movie just read too far into it and construct it into something it's not, I think your, frankly, belligerent hatred of the film warps your view of it into this sheer abomination of cinema with little redeeming qualities, which is equally ridiculous to me as me calling the film borderline masterpiece material is to you. I'm also a bit taken aback by your harsh aversion to accepting the film series as a single, interrelated body of work. It just sounds like you hate TDKR so much you can't stand the thought of it being grouped alongside its two predecessors.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:31 PM   #455
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I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:39 PM   #456
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I don't see what the problem is with Gordon reading Tale of Two Cities. First of all it's just a nod to a source of inspiration for the movie. Second of all, it's established earlier in the movie (you can see the book at his bedside in the hospital) so it's not like it came out of nowhere in the plot. So is it that a middle aged cop can't be depicted as semi-literate? I mean, nevermind the fact that it's high school level reading, God forbid Gordon is portrayed as a man with some culture and taste.

Milost, as much as you're convinced that fans of this movie just read too far into it and construct it into something it's not, I think your, frankly, belligerent hatred of the film warps your view of it into this sheer abomination of cinema with little redeeming qualities, which is equally ridiculous to me as me calling the film borderline masterpiece material is to you. I'm also a bit taken aback by your harsh aversion to accepting the film series as a single, interrelated body of work. It just sounds like you hate TDKR so much you can't stand the thought of it being grouped alongside its two predecessors.
Agree. I'm afraid Milost is the one that's so wrapped with the idea of TDKR being a bad movie that he has these ideas of why it's so bad more than someone who has ideas of what makes TDKR a masterful piece of art.

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Old 06-29-2013, 05:57 PM   #457
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I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.
It is visually striking in places, it pursues an unusual angle, and it has a very good performance from Bale. It is easily the weakest of the three, but its attempt to achieve something different and individual makes it more worthwhile than the majority of 'by the numbers' CBMs. It probably does weaken BB and TDK by association, but it would strengthen most other CNN franchises.
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Agree. I'm afraid Milost is the one that's so wrapped with the idea of TDKR being a bad movie that he has these ideas of why it's so bad more than someone who has ideas of what makes TDKR a masterful piece of art.
Don't understand what you mean. But Milost' s posts are nothing but reasonable and cogent.

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Old 06-29-2013, 06:09 PM   #458
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I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.
This is one hell of a contradictory position to take. I'm glad that you can feel the movie's lack of quality in your bones'n stuff (to steal a line from Travesty ), but surely you must be aware that there are people on the other side of the spectrum with an equal level of conviction.

That's why you'll never catch me posting things like, "I am 100% sure TDKR is a great film!" . It contributes precisely nothing to the conversation and would basically just be j**king off to my own opinion.

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Old 06-29-2013, 06:16 PM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.
Be specific.

I know that isn't much of a response but it's hard to reply when people make broad strokes.

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:05 PM   #460
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Don't understand what you mean. But Milost' s posts are nothing but reasonable and cogent.
Reasonable? Nothing is reasonable when Milost goes as far out of his way to make TDKR seem like a bad film when he complains about Bruce going to an orphanage being a plot hole or Ducard/Ra's al Ghul not mentioning about his daughter(Talia) and Bane to Bruce in BB or that it's even silly for Gordon to go over A Tale of Two Cities during Bruce's funeral. And then he says others are totally wrong and reaching it when someone brings up the symbolism of TDKR.


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Old 06-29-2013, 10:31 PM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.
Im a massive film lover and I think it's a great story. Ive heard from people who don't like superhero movies at all, and usually watch films that are VERY far away from this genre, and they thought Rises was a great story and even better than the last 2 movies. Nobody is really wrong if they say they love it or hate it. It's nothing more than a "taste" issue. Ive seen people who mainly love Marvel CBM's and thought Rises was the best of the trilogy and Ive seen plenty of those types of fans complain and say Begins and Dark Knight kill Rises in every way imaginable.

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Old 06-29-2013, 10:57 PM   #462
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One of the callbacks I love from BB is Ra's telling Bruce "Your anger gives you great power, but if you let it; it will destroy you". Always loved how that played into Bruce's defeat to Bane during there first fight.

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Old 06-29-2013, 11:35 PM   #463
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^ Wait for someone to tell you that you're looking into it too much, lol.

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Old 06-29-2013, 11:38 PM   #464
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^ Wait for someone to tell you that you're looking into it too much, lol.
I'll be ready.




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Old 06-29-2013, 11:45 PM   #465
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What I find interesting is that after a big post about people needing to not put others' tastes in movies down to enhance their own enjoyment or validate their own interests, the discussion evolved into essentially trying to convince people that TDKR is not as good as they think it is.

Seems a little ironic.

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Old 06-29-2013, 11:55 PM   #466
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I'm afraid the word 'ironic' pops up into a lot of people's heads when discussions like these happen.

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:04 AM   #467
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i just read a really weird article where back in november jonah nolan told a reporter [ when asked what happened at the end to bruce] the ending was intentionally open ended. now i definitly understand blakes ending being slightly opaque but why the hell say bruces fate was open ended. thoughts??

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:06 AM   #468
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I loved how Bruce used Ken's Ras words with Liam's Ras 'ghost' apparition when he was in his fever; "Gotham is beyond saving and must be allowed to die"

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:07 AM   #469
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i just read a really weird article where back in november jonah nolan told a reporter [ when asked what happened at the end to bruce] the ending was intentionally open ended. now i definitly understand blakes ending being slightly opaque but why the hell say bruces fate was open ended. thoughts??
"Open-ended" is different from "ambiguous." Open-ended means we're not sure what he does afterwards or if he's fully retired. And that's fine - all we see is that he's moved on and found a life beyond Batman.

Ambiguous means an Inception ending, when we're not sure if he's actually real (ie, alive) or a figment of Alfred's imagination (ie, dead).

Do you have a link to that article?

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:21 AM   #470
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For nearly a year now I thought Bruce retired, but I really don't think that anymore. Bruce probably had off the books bank accounts world wide to keep him going. I figure eventually he returned to Gotham to help Blake (Robin/Nightwing) after a nice long vacation. He knows he can live without Batman and it isn't a crutch anymore, but I don't think Bruce could ever stand by and let Gotham and its people be terrorized. The second the Riddler or Penguin comes around he'll be there helping Blake. He was reborn in that pit into a new Bruce/Batman.


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Old 06-30-2013, 12:25 AM   #471
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"Open-ended" is different from "ambiguous." Open-ended means we're not sure what he does afterwards or if he's fully retired. And that's fine - all we see is that he's moved on and found a life beyond Batman.

Ambiguous means an Inception ending, when we're not sure if he's actually real (ie, alive) or a figment of Alfred's imagination (ie, dead).

Do you have a link to that article?
i am not very computer savy anita unfortunately. but just search for jonathan nolans talks tdkr ending. hope that helps.

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:31 AM   #472
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i am not very computer savy anita unfortunately. but just search for jonathan nolans talks tdkr ending. hope that helps.
Was it this video interview at NYCC?

http://batman-news.com/2012/10/14/jo...-ending-video/

He doesn't say there that it's meant to be open-ended, he just says that who is he to squash discussion of his movie's ending if it inspires that much passion.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:02 AM   #473
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Was it this video interview at NYCC?

http://batman-news.com/2012/10/14/jo...-ending-video/

He doesn't say there that it's meant to be open-ended, he just says that who is he to squash discussion of his movie's ending if it inspires that much passion.
thats it. but he had a chance to say yes this isnt inception bruce lived on and then say well blake will be....whomever you want him to be. or somethn along those lines imho.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:10 AM   #474
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For nearly a year now I thought Bruce retired, but I really don't think that anymore. Bruce probably had off the books bank accounts world wide to keep him going. I figure eventually he returned to Gotham to help Blake (Robin/Nightwing) after a nice long vacation. He knows he can live without Batman and it isn't a crutch anymore, but I don't think Bruce could ever stand by and let Gotham and its people be terrorized. The second the Riddler or Penguin comes around he'll be there helping Blake. He was reborn in that pit into a new Bruce/Batman.
This is sort-of my view on it too. The pit is like a non-literal Lazarus Pit. Ive heard Goyer say "in that pit he has to find a way to be Batman again"...that's what happens when he escapes the pit. He's stronger than he's been in a VERY long time. He's found the will to live which is why he escapes the Bat without dying with the nuke.

But the themes are there in which Alfred wants him to move on from his personal pain. I think Bruce moves on with Selina for a good while and can now maintain a balance. He doesn't have to brood in a batcave for the rest of his life. He's found some peace.

This is why I was hoping Bale came back for a World's Finest or Justice League. There was also a 4th Batman I can see happening where his "new balanced life" is addressed. You get a story where Alfred passes on, Lucius retires, leaving Bruce to control Wayne Enterprises himself while being forced to be more like the Bat of the comics who's creating everything alone. Doing all detective work with "Robin". My last idea was having Gotham's citizens rebuild certain areas/buildings in honor of Batman by going gothic in its architecture. A Batman themed city that awaits the return of the "immortal Bat-God" after he'd "risen" from the dead during Justice League. Would have matched all the Christ & Moses references Goyers made with Superman too.

To me, these films could have continued. Bale could have been the Robert Downey Jr or Daniel Craig of the franchise. But oh well. It was a fantastic end even if he retired, but ill always have my imagination!

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:45 AM   #475
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Reasonable? And then he says others are totally wrong.
Never once stated this in any of my posts. Not once.

Just looked through my posts in here towards Gotham's Knight and no where did I state that he/she was wrong (or "totally wrong" as you put it). I don't even insinuate it. I stated "seems forced, contrived" and that I don't buy it, but that doesn't mean Gotham's Knight isn't free to believe it. That's their eloquent, thought out feelings on what they like, not mine. I stated as much towards the bottom of my post.

I think I respect other people's opinions enough to not put them down, even if I don't agree with a word they say. That's respect. Now I may post with a lot of vigor and negative emotion towards the movie, but I don't think I've ever been rude or have expressed ill-will or negativity towards it's fans. You're the only one that seems to get short and snarky about the whole thing Anno. Any negativity towards the thing and there you are, rolling your eyes or slapping your head in disbelief. I've never had that problem with BatLobsterRises, Gotham's Knight, or anyone else that seemingly loves TDKR as much as you do. Also, those things you listed, my "beef" with the movie so to speak. Most of that is about 1% of what my griping has been on here. In fact, I just expressed the orphanage thing with playboy Bruce yesterday, for the very first time. You should know that to because we really used to get into it about different things months ago.

We're all past the point of convincing people how we feel at this point. I'm not here to force my opinion on anyone. It should be clear that what ever our points of view may be that we're expressing it as our opinion and nothing more, no matter how assertive our posts may seem. Not toting it around as fact.

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