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Old 06-30-2013, 01:49 AM   #476
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Sure as hell makes it seem like you're saying it without saying it when you're calling it reaching when bringing up the symbolism that many, including myself, believe what Nolan is coming from with the film.

And no, you have that wrong...I only get short and snarky when one continues to blast a film even with the more grandeur things about the film, Milost. If you don't see it the same way as others do, fine, that's your deal...but it isn't reaching for others.


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Old 06-30-2013, 02:00 AM   #477
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double post

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:03 AM   #478
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And then he says others are totally wrong.
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makes it seem like you're saying it without saying it

So first you state that I "say it" out right, now you state that I seem to insinuate it. Posting, "I think that's reaching" or "that's contrived" or "cool you feel that way, but honestly I don't" is hardly saying, "YOU'RE TOTALLY WRONG". That ain't fair at all.


How many times do we have to leave a disclaimer in our posts that this is our feelings on the matter. I even check before I hit "Submit Reply" that I'm clearly expressing my opinion in the post from beginning to end. I know that stuff bothers you because I'd point that out towards your posts when you did it to mine ("your opinion"). So even when I'm extra careful that's still not enough?

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:05 AM   #479
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See, this is the Milost we all know...he now tries to compare the two without continuing my problems with his posts.

Well done.

And no need for a disclaimer, but I have the right as much as you to have a problem with your opinion when you have a problem with everyone else's. Listen, some do get a sense of Nolan having this bigger concept than what you would like to acknowledge, nothing wrong with that man.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:08 AM   #480
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thats it. but he had a chance to say yes this isnt inception bruce lived on and then say well blake will be....whomever you want him to be. or somethn along those lines imho.
Considering he and Chris won't say concretely what the end of Memento physically is, or even Inception, I'm not really that surprised. I bet it's mostly fun for them to see all the theories that people think up.

I did have a friend who thought Alfred was dreaming seeing Bruce even WITHOUT having seen Inception, and I was like, "WTF did you get that?"

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:09 AM   #481
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I think the Nolan brothers enjoy the idea of the fans deciding what is going to happen at the end of the films than anything else, and that's refreshing when it comes to film writers/directors.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:12 AM   #482
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Yup. I've had people interpret my own art in very unexpected ways, and it's really fun.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:58 AM   #483
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I think the Nolan brothers enjoy the idea of the fans deciding what is going to happen at the end of the films than anything else, and that's refreshing when it comes to film writers/directors.
Exactly that

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Old 06-30-2013, 04:00 AM   #484
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I hate to be "that guy" because the truth is I do respect other's opinions. If someone says outright that they love a film, I am in no position to say that they're wrong. And yet at the same time - as a movie lover - I am so unquestionably certain that The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. It is a narrative mess, major plot points feel inorganic and contrived, and if I'm being frank... it is a very WEAK story.
You can't do that

I respect other's opinions....but they are objectively wrong

Also , loved the "movie lover" card. How does one obtain it ? Is there some kind of quota ? What sort of cinema do we need to see to enter the club ? Also from which countries ? Which style by the way ? Would love to hear about that.

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Old 06-30-2013, 08:07 AM   #485
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I'm not here to force my opinion on anyone.

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Old 06-30-2013, 09:50 AM   #486
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You can't do that

I respect other's opinions....but they are objectively wrong
Why not? "Quality" is both objective and subjective. If someone tells you they enjoy a piece of beef from McDonalds more than a cut of filet mignon from a five star restaurant, then obviously that is their prerogative. But objectively speaking, that cut of filet IS a higher quality serving of beef no matter what anyone tells you. More care went into it's preparation, it's made up of finer ingredients, and it's more tender. Now if none of that matters to you and you'd still rather opt for the McDonalds hamburger because you can't really taste the difference, then that's great. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe you just really love McDonalds hamburgers. Maybe that's all you know. But don't tell me that the hamburger is made of the same quality as the filet mignon.

In my opinion, The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. Do people love it? Sure. But what's their point of reference? What are their qualifications? Do they have the background or the expertize in film to even know quality when they see it? If 3 or 4 of your 10 favorite movies of all time are Batman movies, or supehero movies in general... isn't it safe to assume that maybe you're a bit bias? Or that perhaps you view cinema with a bit of a limited scope? If we're comparing Nolan's Batman movies to Green Lantern, then sure... they're a masterpiece.

Film is both an art and a science. Believe it or not, there is a method to making an enjoyable film. And when a movie falls flat on it's face, there are reasons for that too. But we all have different standards. To me, when it comes to The Dark Knight Rises... I recognized gargantuan flaws in it's writing, it's direction, it's structure, it's characters, and it's story. Now if you choose to ignore those same flaws, or maybe you don't see those flaws... then all power to you. It's not worth me pointing them all out because you'll just throw them back in my face anyways. If you love the movie, then nothing I say is going to make any sense to you anyways.


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Old 06-30-2013, 11:30 AM   #487
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Why not? "Quality" is both objective and subjective. If someone tells you they enjoy a piece of beef from McDonalds more than a cut of filet mignon from a five star restaurant, then obviously that is their prerogative. But objectively speaking, that cut of filet IS a higher quality serving of beef no matter what anyone tells you. More care went into it's preparation, it's made up of finer ingredients, and it's more tender. Now if none of that matters to you and you'd still rather opt for the McDonalds hamburger because you can't really taste the difference, then that's great. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe you just really love McDonalds hamburgers. Maybe that's all you know. But don't tell me that the hamburger is made of the same quality as the filet mignon.

In my opinion, The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. Do people love it? Sure. But what's their point of reference? What are their qualifications? Do they have the background or the expertize in film to even know quality when they see it? If 3 or 4 of your 10 favorite movies of all time are Batman movies, or supehero movies in general... isn't it safe to assume that maybe you're a bit bias? Or that perhaps you view cinema with a bit of a limited scope? If we're comparing Nolan's Batman movies to Green Lantern, then sure... they're a masterpiece.
How about the 87% of critics who gave the movie positive reviews? Are they just blind, ignorant fanboys caught in their little bubble? Are you more a student of film than a Roeper, Travers or (rest his soul) Ebert?

I just hope you know how condescending you are coming across, despite your efforts to say you respect other people's opinions.

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:11 PM   #488
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How about the 87% of critics who gave the movie positive reviews? Are they just blind, ignorant fanboys caught in their little bubble? Are you more a student of film than a Roeper, Travers or (rest his soul) Ebert?
No, I am not. But just so you know, Ebert also gave The Phantom Menace a glowing 3 1/2 stars. Are you prepared to tell me he was on the money with that assessment? Were you a fan of The Phantom Menace? When you saw that movie for the first time, did you feel it deserved more praise than criticism?

Film reviews can be very politically motivated. Why risk giving an incredibly popular a movie a negative review? Why? So people think less of your opinion and ignore your reviews from here on out? That wouldn't boast well for your career. In some cases, you're better off playing it safe and staying in line with everyone else. It's also an ego thing as much as it is anything else. If you're one of ten critics in a room and nine of them just said they thought a movie was great, perhaps you may not want to come out looking like the one guy that just "didn't get it". Your opinion is only worth as much as your credibility, and critics will do anything they can to protect it.

Kanye West just released his new album, Yeezus. Some people believe it is straight up garbage. I know die hard fans of his that think the guy might even be trolling the music industry with it. That Kanye is aware of his reputation and that he's reached the point where he could fart on a record and have people dissect it's genius. The truth is we'll never know what his intentions were for this album. Some people just don't get it. Some people despise it. Some people are indifferent to it. And yet you still have popular music review sites like Pitchfork and HipHopDX singing the album's praises. I believe under normal circumstances, that album would be considered a disaster. But because it's Kanye West and because he's been dubbed a hip-hop virtuoso, people are looking for reasons to be blown away by it. And just like that, mediocrity is seen as excellence.

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I just hope you know how condescending you are coming across, despite your efforts to say you respect other people's opinions.
I'm aware. It is what it is though. We all have our own standards. My opinion of the film shouldn't affect your enjoyment of it. Conversely, Roger Ebert's thoughts on the film shouldn't act as a validation of your opinion. All that matters is what you think.

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:27 PM   #489
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No, I am not. But just so you know, Ebert also gave The Phantom Menace a glowing 3 1/2 stars. Are you prepared to tell me he was on the money with that assessment? Were you a fan of The Phantom Menace? When you saw that movie for the first time, did you feel it deserved more praise than criticism?

Film reviews can be very politically motivated. Why risk giving an incredibly popular a movie a negative review? Why? So people think less of your opinion and ignore your reviews from here on out? That wouldn't boast well for your career. In some cases, you're better off playing it safe and staying in line with everyone else. It's also an ego thing as much as it is anything else. If you're one of ten critics in a room and nine of them just said they thought a movie was great, perhaps you may not want to come out looking like the one guy that just "didn't get it". Your opinion is only worth as much as your credibility, and critics will do anything they can to protect it.

Kanye West just released his new album, Yeezus. Some people believe it is straight up garbage. I know die hard fans of his that think the guy might even be trolling the music industry with it. That Kanye is aware of his reputation and that he's reached the point where he could fart on a record and have people dissect it's genius. The truth is we'll never know what his intentions were for this album. Some people just don't get it. Some people despise it. Some people are indifferent to it. And yet you still have popular music review sites like Pitchfork and HipHopDX singing the album's praises. I believe under normal circumstances, that album would be considered a disaster. But because it's Kanye West and because he's been dubbed a hip-hop virtuoso, people are looking for reasons to be blown away by it. And just like that, mediocrity is seen as excellence.



I'm aware. It is what it is though. We all have our own standards. My opinion of the film shouldn't affect your enjoyment of it. Conversely, Roger Ebert's thoughts on the film shouldn't act as a validation of your opinion. All that matters is what you think.
So you're arguing that people who liked TDKR either didn't like it and gave positive reviews out of 'political' motivations or they were flat out wrong?

The hypocrisy in here is amusing. People whined that others should stop putting down Avengers (something I hadn't really seen done in here), then they proceeded to force their dislike of TDKR onto others using pathetic arguments like the one above.

Every few weeks this thread turns into people telling fans of TDKR that they are wrong and the movie isn't as good as they think. Sounds like they can't resolve or get past their disappointment so they need to convince others to agree with them. And when that fails they argue the positive reception was political.

Nevermind the fact that reviews often discuss positives and negatives. If you're going to reference Ebert's review maybe you should read it.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/th...ght-rises-2012

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The film begins slowly with a murky plot and too many new characters, but builds to a sensational climax.
Quote:
It lacks the near-perfection of "The Dark Knight" (2008), it needs more clarity and a better villain, but it's an honorable finale.

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Old 06-30-2013, 12:36 PM   #490
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Why not? "Quality" is both objective and subjective. If someone tells you they enjoy a piece of beef from McDonalds more than a cut of filet mignon from a five star restaurant, then obviously that is their prerogative. But objectively speaking, that cut of filet IS a higher quality serving of beef no matter what anyone tells you. More care went into it's preparation, it's made up of finer ingredients, and it's more tender. Now if none of that matters to you and you'd still rather opt for the McDonalds hamburger because you can't really taste the difference, then that's great. Ignorance is bliss. Maybe you just really love McDonalds hamburgers. Maybe that's all you know. But don't tell me that the hamburger is made of the same quality as the filet mignon.

In my opinion, The Dark Knight Rises is not a quality film. Do people love it? Sure. But what's their point of reference? What are their qualifications? Do they have the background or the expertize in film to even know quality when they see it? If 3 or 4 of your 10 favorite movies of all time are Batman movies, or superhero movies in general... isn't it safe to assume that maybe you're a bit bias? Or that perhaps you view cinema with a bit of a limited scope? If we're comparing Nolan's Batman movies to Green Lantern, then sure... they're a masterpiece.

Film is both an art and a science. Believe it or not, there is a method to making an enjoyable film. And when a movie falls flat on it's face, there are reasons for that too. But we all have different standards. To me, when it comes to The Dark Knight Rises... I recognized gargantuan flaws in it's writing, it's direction, it's structure, it's characters, and it's story. Now if you choose to ignore those same flaws, or maybe you don't see those flaws... then all power to you. It's not worth me pointing them all out because you'll just throw them back in my face anyways. If you love the movie, then nothing I say is going to make any sense to you anyways.
Notice i didnt said you were wrong (although you are just because you are making an immense generalization where so much fits that nothing is really consistent).

You make valid points , but you're being a tad too extreme with the objectivity. Off course the opinion of two people dont hold the same value. Off course their knowledge and experience make huge difference. That's why everyone takes under different consideration the opinions of other people. Some hold great value , some....who cares.

But you didn't write this. Well you did some times , other times you are expressing something entirely different. I think like this. If you don't think like i do...then you are objectively wrong . That's your error. Because i can give you 2 different guys , people with an enormous experience in the medium , with vast experience , submit them to this movie (because it's the one we are talking about) , and they will give you two completely different opinions...yet they are both valid. None of the are ignorant as you implied , just because it's different than yours.

And you made some separation regarding who is able or not to give a bias opinion (off course if someone holds in great affection superhero movies as the cream of the crop of cinema , is extremely bias and probably very limited , but that is an extremely small sample , and again someone who i dont hold their opinion in great value)...what is the line ? You didn't detailed it. Which eras do you have to experience ? Which countries ? Which styles ? Film is such a vast medium , that i have no idea how you will be able to create that line.

As for evaluating objectively a film....well the technical part to an extent sure . Wally's work in 65mm is some of the best in the business. But i know a bunch of photography aficionados who don't like his style , his framing , his blocking , his exposures , etc. Then we have sound , structure , direction , etc. All different areas , probably evaluated with great detail by very specialized people. As an whole ? I'm sorry but the amount of detail that goes to a project like this holds no comparison to a burger. As cool as the analogy is.

Quote:
All that matters is what you think.
You wrote this , which contradicts some of the stuff you wrote. Now we are leaving completely the objective nature of film , to all that matters is what you think.


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Old 06-30-2013, 12:39 PM   #491
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I think, on balance, the film doesn't deserve either to be praised as some kind of visionary masterpiece, nor attacked as an affront to the genre. I do think it is easily the weakest of the three films, and that it feels unnecessary, much like The Godfather III. But, treated on its own terms, I find it more interesting that the majority of shrink-wrapped CBMs.

I think discussions on its merits become highly polarised because there are individuals determined to be blind to all of its failings, and other individuals determined not to acknowledge any of its virtues. Both extremes have an air of unreality about them, to my mind.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:32 PM   #492
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I think, on balance, the film doesn't deserve to be praised as some kind of visionary masterpiece...
Neither does TDK, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. None of the Nolan movies are perfect, but because TDK was so ridiculously overrated, TDKR catches a bunch of hell for flaws that the first two films already had to begin with. If people keep it in proper perspective, they'll realize Nolan delivered 3 good superhero movies. That's never been done before in the genre by any filmmaker. It is a genre filled with a bunch of trash for the most part.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #493
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Neither does TDK, but that doesn't stop people from doing it. None of the Nolan movies are perfect, but because TDK was so ridiculously overrated, TDKR catches a bunch of hell for flaws that the first two films already had to begin with. If people keep it in proper perspective, they'll realize Nolan delivered 3 good superhero movies. That's never been done before in the genre by any filmmaker. It is a genre filled with a bunch of trash for the most part.
I wouldn't say TDK was ridiculously overrated, but I agree with what you're saying.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:35 PM   #494
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Absolutely right. But if, as I do, you think of the trilogy going something like 8/10, 9/10, 6/10; then the last third does seem a bit of a shame.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:37 PM   #495
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Absolutely right. But if, as I do, you think of the trilogy going something like 8/10, 9/10, 6/10; then the last third does seem a bit of a shame.
Except I don't think of it like that. It's 8.5, 8, and 8 for me. I haven't handed out a 9 to any CBM and I don't think it'll be happening any time soon.

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Old 06-30-2013, 01:38 PM   #496
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It's like watching the series finale of a serialized TV show. Those episodes in isolation rarely work at all. TDKR holds up even less well than it already does if you delete what you know about BB and TDK from your brain.

For me, BW/BM just spends too much time in his house/cave or in the Pit. And even once he gets outside his house he's not in costume until like 45 minutes in. These things shift a lot of the POV to outside characters, including Blake, who aren't stuck like the titular character is.


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Old 06-30-2013, 01:38 PM   #497
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I wouldn't say TDK was ridiculously overrated, but I agree with what you're saying.
Oh yes it is ridiculously overrated. #6 on the IMDB Top 250. That's insane.

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Old 06-30-2013, 02:06 PM   #498
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Oh yes it is ridiculously overrated. #6 on the IMDB Top 250. That's insane.
LOL from that perspective, yes, but I haven't taken IMDb ratings too seriously in quite awhile. They're heavily skewed toward the "see a movie, rate 10/10" demographics.

But in film circles and general discussion arenas, I'd say TDK is still a little overrated from the standpoint that people act like the movie doesn't have flaws or plot contrivances. It's a great movie where the strengths far outweigh any weaknesses. Same with TDKR.

I view the trilogy as one whole. A personal story of Bruce Wayne and what kind of toll being Batman would enact on him and Gotham.

More importantly, what I love so much about Nolan's films is that he really explored the question, "What would it mean if Batman failed?" The seed was planted in BB, and it happened in TDK. Yet people project the "Batman would never quit!" complaints at TDKR when he decided to stop being Batman both in the middle and the end of TDK.

There was no reason to be Batman after TDK. The damage was done. The cover-up was concocted. No external threat of terrorists and no internal threat of mob syndicates. We weren't in the comic universe where villain after villain can be thrown at Batman to give him a reason to fight.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Batman goes on and on in the comics because DC needs to make money. It's just not interesting to have Bruce cursed to this role for the rest of his life. The mythos of Batman is about Bruce dealing with his anger and grief. Nolan dared to give finality to that core idea, in the context of pulling himself out of immense failure and despair. As a lifelong Batman fan it was just the story I had longed to see on the big screen.

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Old 06-30-2013, 05:35 PM   #499
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Because i can give you 2 different guys , people with an enormous experience in the medium , with vast experience , submit them to this movie (because it's the one we are talking about) , and they will give you two completely different opinions...yet they are both valid. None of the are ignorant as you implied , just because it's different than yours.
Assume you showed those same two individuals The Incredible Burt Wonderstone and one of them told you he thought it was the most incredible comedy he's seen in years. One of the year's best. How much do you value his opinion after he tells you that.

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Old 07-01-2013, 10:49 AM   #500
Tequilla
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Default Re: The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part

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Originally Posted by Skrilla31 View Post
Assume you showed those same two individuals The Incredible Burt Wonderstone and one of them told you he thought it was the most incredible comedy he's seen in years. One of the year's best. How much do you value his opinion after he tells you that.
I've never seen that movie.

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