The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > SHH Community > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-18-2014, 07:41 AM   #1
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default A New United Kingdom?

The rest of the world may be unaware that, today, Scotland is voting on whether it wants to separate politically from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

What has been relatively little discussed is where that will leave the remaining constituents of the UK, or the "rUK". England, Wales and Northern Ireland will still be members. There is strong sentiment in some parts of Scotland (particularly Shetland) to separate from a newly Independent Scotland ("IS"), and to rejoin rUK, so the geographical extent of rUK is a little unclear.

rUK would be richer, as measured by GDP per person, more densely populated, and more right-wing. It is likely to have less influence in the EU, has voting rights are measured by size of population during treat changes, and its place as a permanent member of the UN security council could be under threat, which is likely to be bad news for the USA.

A lot of debate centers on some fairly superficial details, such as what the flag would look like. Here is my attempt:



Do any of you have any thoughts on this?

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 07:53 AM   #2
Dark Raven
The Gal from Themysicra
 
Dark Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tall and tan and young and lovely
Posts: 19,052
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

I was looking for a thread on this topic in here. I couldn't believe no-one even seemed bothered to discuss it, or maybe not even aware of what's going on in the UK. It's the equivalent of the US losing one of its major states, but perhaps even more dramatic than that. At least with the US, their flag could remain essentially the same save for one missing state. With the Union Jack, it would lose a 3rd of the flag's design.

There are many other considerations if Scotland votes yes. They certainly will have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, unless they think they can have their cake and eat it. I personally would be not in favour of Scotland splitting.

BTW, for those who don't know, rUK stands for "rest of the UK".

__________________
Quote:
Anne Hathaway: "You did not just ask me that!! What a forward young man you are!!! My goodness!!"
Dark Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 08:09 AM   #3
StarLord
Tech Noir.
 
StarLord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,419
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
There are many other considerations if Scotland votes yes. They certainly will have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, unless they think they can have their cake and eat it
How exactly?

I'm from Scotland and live in Scotland. I voted Yes.

We're certainly not going to have trouble enjoying some of the same rights or privileges as before, partially because we never had any thanks to Westminster and their empty promises.

Hope over fear.

StarLord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 08:14 AM   #4
hippie_hunter
The King is Back!
SHH! Global Moderator
 
hippie_hunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Titanium Groceries
Posts: 51,615
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.

__________________
Titanium Groceries!!!
hippie_hunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 08:14 AM   #5
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

I genuinely hope for your sake that you are right, but that "hope over fear" stuff really doesn't mean anything. It's the most ingenious political slogan I have heard in years.

Anywho, the thread title is about rUK; it's probably better that we don't rerun all the separation debates, since everyone will already have made up their mind, and there is no going back now.

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 08:19 AM   #6
StarLord
Tech Noir.
 
StarLord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,419
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
I genuinely hope for your sake that you are right, but that "hope over fear" stuff really doesn't mean anything. It's the most ingenious political slogan I have heard in years.

Anywho, the thread title is about rUK; it's probably better that we don't rerun all the separation debates, since everyone will already have made up their mind, and there is no going back now.
It may be ingenious to you, but for us as a nation looking to be independent, it certainly isn't. This is history, whether people like it or, and it's funny because a lot people that are against it don't even like in the UK, never mind Scotland.

But yeah, I don't want to create another 'who's right and who's wrong' so I'll leave it at that.

StarLord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 10:53 AM   #7
Pink Ranger
We Are Hunter Rider
 
Pink Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 21,734
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

No disrespect to the Yes side (unlike Quebec separatists, from what I can tell Scottish separation is not motivated by racism) but I do hope the United Kingdom remains together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
rUK would be richer, as measured by GDP per person, more densely populated, and more right-wing. It is likely to have less influence in the EU, has voting rights are measured by size of population during treat changes, and its place as a permanent member of the UN security council could be under threat, which is likely to be bad news for the USA.
Both Russia and China underwent wrenching political change during their postwar histories, and both revamped countries retained their UN security council seat, so I wouldn't worry too much about that.

__________________
Notice to all Hype members: Put down your phone and/or game controller right now and pick up a copy of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon. A must-read for anybody who visits this website.
Pink Ranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 11:33 AM   #8
Llama_Shepherd
World's Finest
 
Llama_Shepherd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 9,554
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippie_hunter View Post
I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.
Scotland has its own devolved parliament with large areas of jurisdiction, so is represented at the "regional" level and the national level in the UK proportionately.

Also, post-war, the majority of Scots voted for the majority of the governments. Two of the last three prime ministers were also Scottish.

It's a bit of a different situation.

__________________
*\S/T*
"But that's the thing about Batman. Batman thinks of everything."
"There's always a way. When the odds are impossible- do the impossible."
Llama_Shepherd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 12:21 PM   #9
JJJ's Ulcer
Old, cigar chompin' grump
 
JJJ's Ulcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The pit of J Jonah Jameson's stomach.
Posts: 11,268
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Dude, no one's unaware. It's all anyone's talking about in the US today as well. It's a huge story everywhere.

I'm curious to see the outcome, but not personally invested in the results.

__________________
Read this before you reply to me:

"Your" is possessive, used to describe something you own; i.e "I borrowed your book."

"You're" is a contraction of "you" and "are." "You're looking tired today," would be an example of the correct usage.
JJJ's Ulcer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 12:52 PM   #10
chamber-music
Hail Hydra
 
chamber-music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 24,080
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hippie_hunter View Post
I'm rooting for Scotland to leave the UK. As a person from New York, it's often a bit annoying how the Democratic New York City often determines how things are run throughout New York state, including the much more conservative Upstate New York. All we really get are a few bones thrown at us like the Lt. Governor nomination, and New York is only going to become more left-wing thanks to de Blasio. I imagine the left-wing Scotland feels the same way with the much more conservative England often dominating the political scene and implementing policies that many Scottish people just don't want.
The alternative is more devolved powers to the Scottish parliament which they will get anyway as a way to counter balance things at a national level will still remaining in the uk. The SNP originally wanted devo-max on the ballot which they actually prefered but prime minister Cameron played politics.

Which ever way things I go I hope for the best for Scots.

The only reason Scotland doesn't already have devo-max is because if they have then every UK regional government, city and town will want it. We already have London and Wales and northern saying they want more devolved powers now.

Scotland being more left wing than England is a myth. Many Scots have conservative views on a bunch of issues. The Tory party aren't liked Scotland particularly due to the thatcher governments behaviour. The conservatives couldn't even win a majority in the general election when everyone was sick of labour. The conservatives getting into power had more to do with people being fed of the labour party than England suddenly becoming more right wing.

__________________
King Of Strong Style

Last edited by chamber-music; 09-18-2014 at 12:57 PM.
chamber-music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 01:03 PM   #11
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

The idea that there are no Tories in Scotland is another myth: just over 400,000 people voted for the Conservatives in Scotland at the last general election, compared to just under 500,000 who voted for the SNP. It is the magic of constituency boundaries that leads to so few Scottish Tory MPs (the same is also true of England, where Labour have a huge inbuilt electoral advantage).

The point about devolution max brings me back to the topic of the future for rUK, and in particular England. I don't hear many people say that they are desperate for an autonomous government in their town or county, but I do hear a lot of people say that they want England to have equal powers to Scotland or Wales in the Union. That would mean either the exclusion of non-English MPs from the Commons when matters affecting England alone were under debate, or a separate English parliament.

I think I prefer the idea of an English parliament. I think it should probably be somewhere other than London, but where? Birmingham is the second city, while Manchester is perhaps the second best connected. York has a good historical claim to be England's sub-capital, since it has its own Archbishop, was the "capital" of the viking Danelaw, and is the county town of England's largest historical county.

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 01:34 PM   #12
Destructus86
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,629
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer View Post
Dude, no one's unaware. It's all anyone's talking about in the US today as well. It's a huge story everywhere.

I'm curious to see the outcome, but not personally invested in the results.
Welll....people here are not unaware...they just don't care :P

__________________
Ephesians 4:2
Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Destructus86 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 01:47 PM   #13
chamber-music
Hail Hydra
 
chamber-music's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 24,080
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

An English parliament would probably just be in west minister with only English MPs voting on English issues. I can't see English MPs wanting to go sit in another parliament somewhere else in the country which will include having to give them more money for accommodation or waste more money building another parliament building.

__________________
King Of Strong Style
chamber-music is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 02:30 PM   #14
Pink Ranger
We Are Hunter Rider
 
Pink Ranger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 21,734
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
An English parliament would probably just be in west minister with only English MPs voting on English issues. I can't see English MPs wanting to go sit in another parliament somewhere else in the country which will include having to give them more money for accommodation or waste more money building another parliament building.

What's the feasability of making the United Kingdom into a true federalist state, with distinct region-specific legislative bodies completely separate from the Palace of Westminster?

__________________
Notice to all Hype members: Put down your phone and/or game controller right now and pick up a copy of The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay by Michael Chabon. A must-read for anybody who visits this website.
Pink Ranger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 02:36 PM   #15
Dark Raven
The Gal from Themysicra
 
Dark Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tall and tan and young and lovely
Posts: 19,052
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
The idea that there are no Tories in Scotland is another myth: just over 400,000 people voted for the Conservatives in Scotland at the last general election, compared to just under 500,000 who voted for the SNP. It is the magic of constituency boundaries that leads to so few Scottish Tory MPs (the same is also true of England, where Labour have a huge inbuilt electoral advantage).

The point about devolution max brings me back to the topic of the future for rUK, and in particular England. I don't hear many people say that they are desperate for an autonomous government in their town or county, but I do hear a lot of people say that they want England to have equal powers to Scotland or Wales in the Union. That would mean either the exclusion of non-English MPs from the Commons when matters affecting England alone were under debate, or a separate English parliament.

I think I prefer the idea of an English parliament. I think it should probably be somewhere other than London, but where? Birmingham is the second city, while Manchester is perhaps the second best connected. York has a good historical claim to be England's sub-capital, since it has its own Archbishop, was the "capital" of the viking Danelaw, and is the county town of England's largest historical county.
No-one's going to go all the way up to one of these other cities for that. It should be located in the capital.

__________________
Quote:
Anne Hathaway: "You did not just ask me that!! What a forward young man you are!!! My goodness!!"
Dark Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:13 PM   #16
the_ultimate_evil
CURSE YOU GIN MONKEY.
 
the_ultimate_evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: belfast northern ireland
Posts: 20,762
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

What I'm curious about is, if they vote yes and are successful how long before the morons in charge of here(n.ireland) think they can try it

Yeah because this place need more crap about being in the uk

__________________
And so I walk, into the searing light which banishes all darkness, surrendering my face and form to atoms of dust, seeking the true darkness of peace,the cool shadows of eternity and the unknown fate of nothingness
To view my site tumblr dev art twitter
the_ultimate_evil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:20 PM   #17
Dark Raven
The Gal from Themysicra
 
Dark Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tall and tan and young and lovely
Posts: 19,052
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

So what's going to happen to any Scottish websites? They can't really use .co.uk anymore, and isn't sc or other letters taken by other countries already?

__________________
Quote:
Anne Hathaway: "You did not just ask me that!! What a forward young man you are!!! My goodness!!"
Dark Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:20 PM   #18
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
No-one's going to go all the way up to one of these other cities for that. It should be located in the capital.
I am suggesting that Members of the English Parliament ("EMP's") be a different set of people to Members of the UK Parliament ("MP's"), in just the same way that Scotland has MSP's. In that regard, they will not be going "all the way up anywhere", because they will not be based in London. Living expenses outside the capital are marginal compared to those within, so they would be relatively cheap.

One of the reasons for the insurgence of UKIP, and of the nationalist movements in the fringe nations, is apparently that people feel estranged from a distant, Westminster-based political elite. I think a good way of acknowledging that England exists outside London is to put an English parliament elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_ultimate_evil View Post
What I'm curious about is, if they vote yes and are successful how long before the morons in charge of here(n.ireland) think they can try it

Yeah because this place need more crap about being in the uk
The republican parties wouldn't have the voting weight in Stormont to legislate for it, would they?

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:23 PM   #19
the_ultimate_evil
CURSE YOU GIN MONKEY.
 
the_ultimate_evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: belfast northern ireland
Posts: 20,762
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post


The republican parties wouldn't have the voting weight in Stormont to legislate for it, would they?
Truthfully I don't know, I don't think so but if the somehow managed it but you can bet your ass that every bugger and his brother would turn out to vote.

Hell my country is the only one I know of that has voted willingly in legitimate terrorists from both sides into parliament

__________________
And so I walk, into the searing light which banishes all darkness, surrendering my face and form to atoms of dust, seeking the true darkness of peace,the cool shadows of eternity and the unknown fate of nothingness
To view my site tumblr dev art twitter
the_ultimate_evil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:30 PM   #20
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Actually, at the assembly it appears to be on a knife edge.

The fact that the Conservatives have 15% of the vote but no seats would probably mean that an independence referendum in your country would get a comfortable "no" vote overall, however.

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:34 PM   #21
Dark Raven
The Gal from Themysicra
 
Dark Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tall and tan and young and lovely
Posts: 19,052
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

David Cameron said he would kill himself if Scotland leaves the UK. He didn't just say it, he promised he would do it.

Well, that puts him in a bit of a pickle tomorrow morning if the yes vote is overwhelming.

__________________
Quote:
Anne Hathaway: "You did not just ask me that!! What a forward young man you are!!! My goodness!!"
Dark Raven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 03:56 PM   #22
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Er, source? He said that being assassinated would be a release, of that's what you mean.

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 04:30 PM   #23
JJJ's Ulcer
Old, cigar chompin' grump
 
JJJ's Ulcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The pit of J Jonah Jameson's stomach.
Posts: 11,268
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
David Cameron said he would kill himself if Scotland leaves the UK. He didn't just say it, he promised he would do it.

Well, that puts him in a bit of a pickle tomorrow morning if the yes vote is overwhelming.


I believe that was an 'Onion' article.

__________________
Read this before you reply to me:

"Your" is possessive, used to describe something you own; i.e "I borrowed your book."

"You're" is a contraction of "you" and "are." "You're looking tired today," would be an example of the correct usage.
JJJ's Ulcer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 04:38 PM   #24
JJJ's Ulcer
Old, cigar chompin' grump
 
JJJ's Ulcer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The pit of J Jonah Jameson's stomach.
Posts: 11,268
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

I've heard some commentators say it will be a narrow win for NO. I'm going to go out on a limb and say YES will win. I think the youth vote is being underestimated. Youth don't usually vote in great numbers, because most elections or referendums don't carry this kind of collective and national import. They're engaged this time, because they want to be part of something like the future of their country and being young and idealistic, they probably see independence as a cause. Especially in this wired social media world, I can see teens and early 20's organizing and getting out the vote through Twitter and other means.

__________________
Read this before you reply to me:

"Your" is possessive, used to describe something you own; i.e "I borrowed your book."

"You're" is a contraction of "you" and "are." "You're looking tired today," would be an example of the correct usage.
JJJ's Ulcer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2014, 04:41 PM   #25
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 22,720
Default Re: A New United Kingdom?

Exit poll gives it to "No", 54/46. A much bigger win for "No" than most predicted.

These are usually pretty accurate, but we haven't had a referendum like this before.

__________________
Difficult, difficult, lemon-difficult.
regwec is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.