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Old 06-12-2013, 06:38 PM   #26
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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Exactly. This is a term that's being used far too generously. I think he's a hero in his own mind, based on some of his statements...for example, describing his actions as speaking "truth to power"...a phrase that people normally use to praise their own heroes or people whom they admire, not themselves.

I see Snowden as a clueless whiner, and an arrogant, reckless, spineless coward. I don't want to see him locked up for life, but he should stand before the law like a man instead of running and hiding in Honk Kong. He said he would not hide! But he's now effectively hiding behind govt. officials in HK. Now he's talking to the Chinese press about US Govt. hacking, as if they didn't already know. Clearly trying to gain some sympathy for letting him remain there. People still see this man as a hero?

I understand his concern of not trusting the criminal justice system all too well. The problem is, the info he leaked was not worth the penalty he now potentially faces. He just doesn't have a strong case. I believe his cause was just, but his actions of releasing classified Top Secret docs and then running to China cannot be justified.

I see him as a whiner, for continuing to work for Uncle Sam even after feeling disillusionment from experiences in the Army and with the CIA. He took that job, took the money, then backstabbed his employer, his co-workers and the US Govt, threw his family under the bus and ran to China. Instead of creating this mess, he should've left his job and started his own, legal, grassroots effort to make the changes he believes in.
That's my main beef with calling him a hero.

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Old 06-12-2013, 07:47 PM   #27
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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You mean how its no different than any other government in the world? Each government does things to protect its citizens as it sees fit and sometimes they may seem a bit extreme. Is what the US Government possibly overstepping its bounds? Yes.
Hence the 'how much' in my post. You seem to be boxing shadow arguments if you think I said my government doesn't. I'm saying yours is on another level entirely, on the heels of the Patriot Act, warrantless searches, spying, etcetera. I'm deeply afraid when Abbott gets in he'll try something similar, though certainly the extremes America goes to wouldn't really fly here due to cultural differences.

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Old 06-12-2013, 08:04 PM   #28
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:32 PM   #29
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Obviously this isn't the norm. Unless you used to live in the Soviet Bloc, this isn't business as usual. This is government intrusion on an unprecedented scale.

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Old 06-13-2013, 06:12 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Its up to American citizens to judge if he is a hero or traitor so I won't comment on that and none of us personally know the man so we can only go by what we are seeing about Edward Snowden in the media in regards to if his intentions were genuine or not.

I don't think he did this for fame. There are easier and safer ways to gain fame and infamy than exposing things about your government that will mean you will probably spend the rest of your days on the run and never be allowed to set foot in your own country again without the threat of arrest.

I'm all for people blowing the whistle on governments wrong doing as long as it doesn't put peoples lives at risk.

I think for the most part people are fine with government's clandestine activities regarding terrorism but if these thinks develop into more like secret files on citizens to McCarthy levels then I'm sure attitudes would change.

If they are capable of secretly doing these kinds of things who knows what else they are up to. We shouldn't be so quick to hand over the keys to our lives to faceless organisations we might regret it later on.

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Old 06-13-2013, 10:01 AM   #31
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This man is no traitor he's just brought into sharp focus what the US government has been working toward in secret for some time and there not finished yet not even close, these data farms are massive in the true meaning of the word. If you think that all there going to be used for is to look for terrorists (who by the way don't trust phones or the internet) your forgetting how polices change and if you consider that all the approvals for this were done in secret a change of who can be scrutinized and why could also happen without anyone knowing. You may not get another Edward Snowden and if the free people of America can't protect him you won't.
The US government is getting really good at crucifying patriots by calling them traitors.

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Old 06-13-2013, 01:04 PM   #32
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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Instead of creating this mess, he should've left his job and started his own, legal, grassroots effort to make the changes he believes in.
Which would have not worked and no one would have payed attention to.

What he did here drew attention to the problem in a way "grass roots campaigning" could never do. This isn't getting your town's mayor elected to congress, this is trying to change or shut down an intelligence agency.

Also, I see no problem with a person breaking the law if the law stinks.

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Old 06-13-2013, 02:00 PM   #33
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IMO, a TRUE HERO is someone that thinks about others before themselves. Not saying that this particular information rises to the grade of "putting people at risk", but it very well could really mess up our ability in the future to work with people.

So, as I said before, I think he could have done this in a much smarter way.

Not a hero, by a long shot.

So, you would prefer we all just follow the government and let them trample over our rights? Because you can't have it both ways...dealing with the truth and government is going to get messy. If we don't want messy...then we may as well hand over our rights right now.

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Old 06-13-2013, 02:39 PM   #34
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The American press largely failed themselves when they allied with the establishment and left Assange and Manning to be crucified. They made their bed when they sought to please the people in power. Just look at the recent AP scandal and we are still surprised at what Snowden did ?

What choice now do potential whistleblowers have left ? The U.S. government, under President Obama, has prosecuted whistleblowers more aggressively and more prolifically than any other prior administration in American history by far. Twice the amount of all past administrations combined.

They argue that they may suck in the information, they may store it, they may monitor it, but the law says they can’t actually listen to it or read it if it’s by and between Americans without first going to a FISA court. And what Edward Snowden is telling you is that, although that might be the law, the monitors, the systems at NSA allow full and unfettered access at any time to any one of these analysts to go and listen to whatever it is they want, to read whatever emails they want, to monitor in real time whatever online chats are taking place.

And because there’s no oversight, because there’s really no accountability or transparency, there is no check on this abuse. When human beings are able to spy on other human beings in the dark, abuse, rampant abuse, is inevitable. That was supposed to be why we don’t have spying abilities without accountability any longer.

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Old 06-13-2013, 03:27 PM   #35
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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So, you would prefer we all just follow the government and let them trample over our rights? Because you can't have it both ways...dealing with the truth and government is going to get messy. If we don't want messy...then we may as well hand over our rights right now.
Nope didn't say that at all. I am speaking of this particular issue, with this particular guy. The HOW, the WHAT, and the WHY...is where my questions lie. I don't like the idea of the government doing what he said they are doing. BUT, I would much rather him have gone to his Senator, they would have gone to the particular committee leader, and taken it from there. I DO NOT however, like our dirty laundry being screamed from the roof tops for all to hear....ALL MEANING, China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, etc. Is that the only way he could have gone? No there are several people that I have heard over the last few days that would have listened to him, and taken this through the proper channels.

Never once did I say I was ok with it.

Let's not let the..."lets stick it to the man" mentality to override the reality of the situation he has put our national security in....probably creating problems (problems that I have no idea about...) but the possibility is definitely there that some of our national security contacts are now saying....no thanks.

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Old 06-13-2013, 04:24 PM   #36
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Which would have not worked and no one would have payed attention to.

What he did here drew attention to the problem in a way "grass roots campaigning" could never do. This isn't getting your town's mayor elected to congress, this is trying to change or shut down an intelligence agency.

Also, I see no problem with a person breaking the law if the law stinks.
I said "efforts" not "campaigning." We'll never know if it would've worked, because he never tried. We do know that throughout history, grassroots movements have been successful in making changes in society. You can't just throw your hands up and say "it'll never work!" and then go straight to extreme actions. I'm not convinced that what he's doing now is working all that well. Most people still do not care or know about this issue at all, which is probably a sign that he's not being successful.

And again, nobody forced him to work for Booz. It's not like he was breaking out of prison after being wrongly convicted, or being oppressed by a dictator. Hell, he didn't even make a substantive case for revealing any criminal wrongdoing. Was it worth it? I don't know. I think he should turn himself in. If he hadn't been such a coward, then he would've turned himself in from the start, and faced the consequences of what he did. I think he would've gained more sympathy and drawn more attention to the cause if he was actually in custody and having to go to court.

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Old 06-13-2013, 05:36 PM   #37
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

This guy is a much bigger hero than Snowden:

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Probably because he actually did something heroic that forever affected the lives of three families who had been searching for answers for a decade.

Charles Ramsey > Edward Snowden

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Old 06-13-2013, 05:43 PM   #38
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Yeah too bad he's a convicted wife beater.

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Old 06-13-2013, 05:49 PM   #39
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I said "efforts" not "campaigning." We'll never know if it would've worked, because he never tried. We do know that throughout history, grassroots movements have been successful in making changes in society. You can't just throw your hands up and say "it'll never work!" and then go straight to extreme actions. I'm not convinced that what he's doing now is working all that well. Most people still do not care or know about this issue at all, which is probably a sign that he's not being successful.

And again, nobody forced him to work for Booz. It's not like he was breaking out of prison after being wrongly convicted, or being oppressed by a dictator. Hell, he didn't even make a substantive case for revealing any criminal wrongdoing. Was it worth it? I don't know. I think he should turn himself in. If he hadn't been such a coward, then he would've turned himself in from the start, and faced the consequences of what he did. I think he would've gained more sympathy and drawn more attention to the cause if he was actually in custody and having to go to court.
I don't think it's cowardly to evade a jail sentence for doing something you don't think was wrong.

I don't understand why starting up a grass roots movement would have been better. I don't see how what he did was wrong, either. If there's an injustice, and you can do something that might inhibit it and draw attention to it in the media (which his action absolutely did), then I can't see a reason not to do it. At least, I can't see a reason not to do it in this case.

Basically, what's wrong with extreme actions when trying to address an extreme problem?

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:55 AM   #40
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Are we a nation of laws, or not? With your logic, anyone can kill, steal, destroy...anything...and justify it based on what they think needed to be done in order to change policy, change people's minds, change history, prove a point...and so on. What gives Snowden the right to decide for the rest of us which laws need to be broken for the sake of the greater good? Apparently, he only worked at Booz for 3 months! Think about that for a second...he made no attempt to work for change within the system before he basically threw his life away. That's not a hero, that's a rash, reckless young man who possibly needed a psych eval and some serious life counseling.

Why did he run to China? Of all places to run off to...considering his technical specialty and the access he's unfortunately had for the past several years...is he really that naive? Now he's already being used for anti-American Chinese propaganda. To be fair, he invited it before they even started by talking to the local newspapers about American hackers. Forget about the fact that China has been actively, relentlessly and blatantly hacking, spying and infiltrating the US as well. What kind of hero or patriot does such things? He's created an air of suspicion over his motives that didn't need to exist. So again, I agree with the spirit behind what he was trying to do, but he went about it the wrong way and now he needs to face the consequences.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:46 PM   #41
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Are we a nation of laws, or not? With your logic, anyone can kill, steal, destroy...anything...and justify it based on what they think needed to be done in order to change policy, change people's minds, change history, prove a point...and so on. What gives Snowden the right to decide for the rest of us which laws need to be broken for the sake of the greater good? Apparently, he only worked at Booz for 3 months! Think about that for a second...he made no attempt to work for change within the system before he basically threw his life away. That's not a hero, that's a rash, reckless young man who possibly needed a psych eval and some serious life counseling.

Why did he run to China? Of all places to run off to...considering his technical specialty and the access he's unfortunately had for the past several years...is he really that naive? Now he's already being used for anti-American Chinese propaganda. To be fair, he invited it before they even started by talking to the local newspapers about American hackers. Forget about the fact that China has been actively, relentlessly and blatantly hacking, spying and infiltrating the US as well. What kind of hero or patriot does such things? He's created an air of suspicion over his motives that didn't need to exist. So again, I agree with the spirit behind what he was trying to do, but he went about it the wrong way and now he needs to face the consequences.

It sounds to me like you are defending a country that blatantly breaks the laws and betrays its people whenever it feels like it?

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #42
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Him doing all this from China is rather... ironic.

I'd take him a lot more seriously if he did it in a country not notorious for its mass surveillance and internet censorship.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:56 PM   #43
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Him doing all this from China is rather... ironic.

I'd take him a lot more seriously if he did it in a country not notorious for its mass surveillance and internet censorship.
I agree, and I'm beginning to see him in a far more negative view with each passing day. I have a feeling we are going to be surprised at what comes out about him over the next few months.

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:37 PM   #44
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It sounds to me like you are defending a country that blatantly breaks the laws and betrays its people whenever it feels like it?
I oppose the policy of snooping on phone and internet records, as it's currently set up.

But the thread is about the man who leaked classified Top Secret docs and then ran to China. He said he would not hide, but he sneaked out of his hotel room last week, and his whereabouts are not publicly known at this time. I would totally have more respect for him if he turned himself in at the start. In the interview, referred to himself as "sacrificing." He later said that he was speaking "truth to power." He's getting eviscerated in public opinion for being a narcissist, and well, he deserves it.

I'm fascinated by the way in which people rushed so quickly to hail him as a hero or traitor. I put some blame on the media. I think the mainstream media encourages us to get swept up emotionally in every big news story and makes us feel like we have to pick a side, instead of really finding out the facts and thinking about the problems. That's how they get us to tune in, and to keep coming back for more.

If you believe the polls that are coming out, then most Americans agree that Snowden should face trial:

In a USA TODAY/Pew Research Center Poll, most Americans say the NSA leaker should be prosecuted, but two-thirds don't like the idea the U.S. government is collecting their own communication records.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/p...-poll/2430583/

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WASHINGTON A majority of Americans say the person responsible for leaking top-secret documents about U.S. surveillance of phone and Internet records should be criminally prosecuted, a new USA TODAY/Pew Research Center Poll finds, even as views are closely divided about the wisdom of the programs themselves.

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:02 PM   #45
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The average person wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Still, when the next attack happens, they'll happily give up more of their civil liberties in exchange for the promise of more security.

Just look at the TSA. In ten years, they have been harassing and irradiating people at airports in the name of security. How many terrorist plots have they actually foiled? How many would-be terrorists have they apprehended? Nada.

And then when a Dutchman tackles an actual terrorist with smoking underwear on a plane, Janet Napolitano has the gall to say that "the system worked".

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:25 PM   #46
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The average person wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Still, when the next attack happens, they'll happily give up more of their civil liberties in exchange for the promise of more security.

Just look at the TSA. In ten years, they have been harassing and irradiating people at airports in the name of security. How many terrorist plots have they actually foiled? How many would-be terrorists have they apprehended? Nada.

And then when a Dutchman tackles an actual terrorist with smoking underwear on a plane, Janet Napolitano has the gall to say that "the system worked".
Can't argue with you on that one....

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:27 PM   #47
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Lets say that Snowden is a traitor and lets also argue that he has aided the terrorists doesn't it in some way justify his claim that this is all kind of wrong, after all they gave him the job, they've also hired thousands more. No guaranty there isn't any actual traitors amongst them, can't expect a real traitor to out themselves. By there own admission the data isn't secure.
And where are the terrorists who had there plots foiled, shouldn't they be behind bars somewhere, There like bad magicians telling us there's a rabbit in the hat but not pulling it out. Trust me there really is a rabbit in there

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:35 PM   #48
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I think people should realize that they are never safe and never will be. It is completely impossible to make a country or its citizens 100% safe.

If people really want to kill people they will always find a way to do it.

The civil liberties in exchange for the promise of more security is never really going to work. Its more about if people think or feel safer than if they actually are safer.

Its like how murder and violent crime has actually been falling in many western countries yet you hear people say its getting worst which is probably more down to heightened fear drummed up by the media.

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Old 06-19-2013, 03:56 PM   #49
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Let's see... you're 1048 times more likely to die in a car accident than in a terrorist attack... and my personal favorite, you're 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than a terrorist.

I think that about says it all.

The security is more likely to kill you than the threat.

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Old 06-19-2013, 06:42 PM   #50
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

I think this whole phone thing is bunk, I thought the Patriot Act was bunk. But, after listening to this guys dad in an interview? It didn't sound like his dad was too thrilled with his decision, and he's headed down the road of..."son don't make this any worse, think before you act again..." kind of thinking.

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