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Old 06-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #51
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

I wasn't judging him before, but I have to seriously side eye him taking a stand against the US wiretapping and surveillance of its citizens, and then go to China, of all possible places.

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Old 06-20-2013, 03:45 AM   #52
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Well China is probably one of the places that won't extradite him or allow him to be black bagged by the CIA and sent to Gitmo. Its a better decision than Julian Assange one to go to the UK where he is now stuck in the Ecuadorian embassy which he can't leave because he will be arrested and extradited.

A security expert said the U.S government most likely knows exactly where he is and will pick him up sooner or later.

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Old 06-20-2013, 05:55 PM   #53
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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Certainly he has courage. As an Australian I am shocked at how much the American govt polices its citizens, so I would certainly call him heroic in that regard. I've never been comfortable with the idea that someone is a traitor in anything other than legalities when it comes to protesting the actions of a government. Your nation celebrates its founding on actions such as this (even if the oppressive aspect of Britain is overplayed in American culture as far as I can tell).
You are aware that pretty much every Western government is attempting to do this in some form. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually more government surveillance programs from Great Britain to France to Australia are exposed.

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Old 06-20-2013, 05:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

I wonder if those people that share this information run to China?

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Old 06-20-2013, 06:45 PM   #55
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You are aware that pretty much every Western government is attempting to do this in some form. I wouldn't be surprised if eventually more government surveillance programs from Great Britain to France to Australia are exposed.
I do not deny my government does some shady stuff, but these 'they're all the same' arguments need to stop. It is clear that America's government has gone above and beyond other western nations in taking away privacy and removing rights: Guantamano Bay, the PATRIOT Act, NSA surveillance, TSA, warrantless searches.

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Old 06-20-2013, 07:01 PM   #56
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I do not deny my government does some shady stuff, but these 'they're all the same' arguments need to stop. It is clear that America's government has gone above and beyond other western nations in taking away privacy and removing rights: Guantamano Bay, the PATRIOT Act, NSA surveillance, TSA, warrantless searches.
Actually they're all just as bad as the United States. The United Kingdom and Australia were cooperative with the US with Guantanamo Bay. The UK, France, and Australia all have instances if warrantless searches, anti-terror laws and surveillance laws on par with the US. And Australia is actually working with the NSA to implement surveillance apparatuses. There is a massive load of cooperation between the Western governments on this issue and to just accuse the United States for being the most guilty when they're all equally guilty is just well...wrong. It's just criticizing the United States just for the sake of criticism.

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Old 06-20-2013, 08:04 PM   #57
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Actually they're all just as bad as the United States. The United Kingdom and Australia were cooperative with the US with Guantanamo Bay. The UK, France, and Australia all have instances if warrantless searches, anti-terror laws and surveillance laws on par with the US. And Australia is actually working with the NSA to implement surveillance apparatuses. There is a massive load of cooperation between the Western governments on this issue and to just accuse the United States for being the most guilty when they're all equally guilty is just well...wrong. It's just criticizing the United States just for the sake of criticism.
No, the American government started all these initiatives, and other Western governments followed suit in supporting. I cannot speak for the UK, but most people here characterise our govt as spineless for supporting America's wars simply because they are allies and more powerful. This does not change the fact that the American government began all of them, and that support from other nations is largely support of America's treatment of its own citizens. I'm not nationalistic or patriotic, I am merely pointing out that the instances of American authoritarianism far outclass that of Australia. Which is very frightening, since if the US takes the lead in some action, most other western governments will show some support, through economic and political pressure as well as other reasons.

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Old 06-20-2013, 08:12 PM   #58
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

To be fair, John Howard tried to be as bad as Bush.

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Old 06-20-2013, 08:24 PM   #59
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To be fair, John Howard tried to be as bad as Bush.
I wouldn't put it that far, he certainly didn't start any wars, but he was pretty terrible apart from enacting gun control, which I'm in favour of. I was happy to see him kicked out when he tried to destroy the unions and install Workchoice though.

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Old 06-20-2013, 10:25 PM   #60
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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No, the American government started all these initiatives, and other Western governments followed suit in supporting.
If your government is supporting it, that means they're just as bad. It doesn't matter who starts the damn thing, it all comes down to the very simple fact that all these governments have the exact same goals, are colluding with one another, and are doing so at the expense of civil liberties. The United States is bad at this, but so are the others. You can't just condemn one nation when all the others are complicit.

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I cannot speak for the UK, but most people here characterise our govt as spineless for supporting America's wars simply because they are allies and more powerful. This does not change the fact that the American government began all of them, and that support from other nations is largely support of America's treatment of its own citizens. I'm not nationalistic or patriotic, I am merely pointing out that the instances of American authoritarianism far outclass that of Australia. Which is very frightening, since if the US takes the lead in some action, most other western governments will show some support, through economic and political pressure as well as other reasons.
Again, doesn't matter who started it. Australia has been extremely supportive of the US' initiatives and it's extremely hypocritical to criticize the American government when your government complies with them. There are a lot of Americans who aren't fond of this authoritarian behavior that our government is exhibiting, just like how there are a lot of Australians who are not fond of their government colluding with the American government on the War on Terror. Instead of hypocritically pointing fingers at who is worse, we should be coming together to stand up to this nonsense.

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Old 06-23-2013, 11:37 AM   #61
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

He could flee to South America:

http://news.yahoo.com/former-nsa-con...080843121.html

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Old 06-23-2013, 12:36 PM   #62
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Can't even stand to fight and runs to hostile countries like a little chickensh**. And now Ecuador is becoming a thorn in the US' side. Screw WikiLeaks as well.

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Old 06-23-2013, 12:38 PM   #63
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

While it appears to be scare tactics calling him a traitor and what not, I am curious about what his overall goal is aside from possibly unleashing U.S. secrets to others.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:13 PM   #64
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While it appears to be scare tactics calling him a traitor and what not, I am curious about what his overall goal is aside from possibly unleashing U.S. secrets to others.
Who knows, right now the maximum he can get is 10 years. If I really felt like what I saw in my government job was to the extreme that he says it was....I think I could handle the possibility of 10 years as the max, knowing I would probably not get that, and even if I did I would probably serve about 6.6 of it. If I wasn't willing to do that, I sure as hell wouldn't head for a communist country that is the main hacker of our government.

I have no idea what is going through the guys head.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:21 PM   #65
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Back when America really meant/stood for something traitor equaled dead and all citizens applauded because they understood the simple necessity of that. Now in this age of glamorous stupidity in a country that has no central morals or values traitor equals rock star or at least someone who's "misunderstood." Meh. We get what we deserve as evidenced by our last few Presidents.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:38 PM   #66
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Back when America really meant/stood for something traitor equaled dead and all citizens applauded because they understood the simple necessity of that. Now in this age of glamorous stupidity in a country that has no central morals or values traitor equals rock star or at least someone who's "misunderstood." Meh. We get what we deserve as evidenced by our last few Presidents.
So it's never okay to defy the government to stop the government from doing something wrong

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Wow. Did I say that? Oh. Nope I didn't.

It is in fact never Ok to release classified information and then run to China with more of same. That is being a traitor and begs execution.

Getting ahold of your Senator or the Senate Judiciary Committee or some other group within the government is how you deal with such things.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:48 PM   #68
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Wow. Did I say that? Oh. Nope I didn't.

It is in fact never Ok to release classified information and then run to China with more of same. That is being a traitor and begs execution.

Getting ahold of your Senator or the Senate Judiciary Committee or some other group within the government is how you deal with such things.
But why?

I mean, by that logic, we should demonize the founding fathers. Starting a war to secede from your country which results in thousands of deaths is a much greater act of treason than releasing classified information that proves that the government is doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Why is it inherently wrong to do what he did?

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #69
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Wow. Did I say that? Oh. Nope I didn't.

It is in fact never Ok to release classified information and then run to China with more of same. That is being a traitor and begs execution.

Getting ahold of your Senator or the Senate Judiciary Committee or some other group within the government is how you deal with such things.
This is why I think how he's going about things is all wrong and not worthy of being called a hero. Instead of going through channels where I'm sure there were/are a few sympathetic ears to his cause, he goes to countries openly hostile to the US and says they're open to questioning of governments and privacy when in fact they aren't. They're using him as a political ploy against the US than actually caring about what he originally started out to do.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:53 PM   #70
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But why?

I mean, by that logic, we should demonize the founding fathers. Starting a war to secede from your country which results in thousands of deaths is a much greater act of treason than releasing classified information that proves that the government is doing something they shouldn't be doing.

Why is it inherently wrong to do what he did?
Um...no. That logic says nothing about demonizing anyone. You just wanted to work that statement in.

As I stated, it is inherently wrong to release classified info and then run with more of it to our enemies. I'm sorry if you can't grasp this simple premise.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #71
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Um...no. That logic says nothing about demonizing anyone. You just wanted to work that statement in.

As I stated, it is inherently wrong to release classified info and then run with more of it to our enemies. I'm sorry if you can't grasp this simple premise.
You haven't explained why it's inherently wrong. It's not a problem of me not being able to grasp concepts when you make a statement and then do not back it up with anything.

And perhaps demonizing was the wrong word. But by your logic, it was inherently wrong for the founding fathers to do what they did, as it was an act of treason. One that was significantly more destructive than what Edward Snowden did.

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Old 06-23-2013, 01:56 PM   #72
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This is why I think how he's going about things is all wrong and not worthy of being called a hero. Instead of going through channels where I'm sure there were/are a few sympathetic ears to his cause, he goes to countries openly hostile to the US and says they're open to questioning of governments and privacy when in fact they aren't. They're using him as a political ploy against the US than actually caring about what he originally started out to do.
Exactly. Although I think that what he started out to do was make money or fame or he would have gone through channels.

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Old 06-23-2013, 02:00 PM   #73
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You haven't explained why it's inherently wrong. It's not a problem of me not being able to grasp concepts when you make a statement and then do not back it up with anything.

And perhaps demonizing was the wrong word. But by your logic, it was inherently wrong for the founding fathers to do what they did, as it was an act of treason. One that was significantly more destructive than what Edward Snowden did.
We have yet to see what the destructive effects of Snowden's actions may be. And I see now that you are simply choosing not to see why it's inherently wrong because you either don't want to or you are supportive of treason.

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Old 06-23-2013, 02:03 PM   #74
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We have yet to see what the destructive effects of Snowden's actions may be. And I see now that you are simply choosing not to see why it's inherently wrong because you either don't want to or you are supportive of treason.
Could you please explain it? Because all you've been doing is saying it's wrong and not saying why.


I don't think it's inherently wrong to leak government documents. If the government is doing something wrong, and those documents prove that the government is doing something wrong, I think leaking them is a person's moral obligation. That's how you keep the government honest.

Please tell me where I'm mistaken here.

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Old 06-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #75
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Could you please explain it? Because all you've been doing is saying it's wrong and not saying why.


I don't think it's inherently wrong to leak government documents. If the government is doing something wrong, and those documents prove that the government is doing something wrong, I think leaking them is a person's moral obligation. That's how you keep the government honest.

Please tell me where I'm mistaken here.
But you don't leak the stuff and then go run off to countries openly hostile to the US, ask for asylum, and still expect people to respect your decisions. It's like a hit-and-run accident where he avoids all consequences of his actions. He's supposedly doing this so that the US is a better place to live yet he's asking for asylum, likely never to return to the US and see if what he did changed anything. Cowardly is a better description of his actions.

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