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Old 06-23-2013, 02:10 PM   #76
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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Could you please explain it? Because all you've been doing is saying it's wrong and not saying why.


I don't think it's inherently wrong to leak government documents. If the government is doing something wrong, and those documents prove that the government is doing something wrong, I think leaking them is a person's moral obligation. That's how you keep the government honest.

Please tell me where I'm mistaken here.
Because if those documents are classified, that is the very definition of treason. To reveal our capabilities and methods is, by definition, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The twisted logic you are using is the same used by vigilantes. "I saw him commit a murder, so I shot him rather than calling the police." Get it? He should have used our system rather than operating outside it. To operate outside it, especially in the way he did, made him a criminal.

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:03 PM   #77
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Okay, now he's a traitor.

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:12 PM   #78
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

What, you thought he left the country to take advantage of his frequent flyer miles?

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:14 PM   #79
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

No, but he had some legitimate grievances. Going to Russia though, he loses all credibility.

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:15 PM   #80
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Yep. He's shopping for a buyer. Traitor, pure and simple.

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Old 06-23-2013, 06:46 PM   #81
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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So it's never okay to defy the government to stop the government from doing something wrong
There are steps he could have taken, we have had many whistle blowers that have gone a very different route, spoke before Congress, etc...they didn't fly off to a communist country, a country that has hacked the hell out of us.

Plain and simple, no he doesn't have whistle blower protection because he isn't a Federal employee....but he still could have gone to the Inspector General, which is exactly what he should have done. If that had failed to get anything done, THEN he could have gone to the press and would have a much better defense. He has none now.

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:09 PM   #82
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

Call the guy a traitor, whatever, I don't care about the guy. But whoever truly believes what the US is doing is ok needs to have their head examined.

This came as no surprise to me, neither did people defending the government's actions. Its like the South Park movie where Kyle' mom is obssesed with making the country a better place to live for kids and in the process turns it into hell on Earth (although its not that bad).

They were also trying to take it a step further with the Xbox One where the Kinect always has to be on and constantly connected to the internet for it to work.

People are gonna die, you can't stop it no matter how hard you try.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:01 PM   #83
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

DEMONIZING EDWARD SNOWDEN: WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?
POSTED BY JOHN CASSIDY

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...re-you-on.html

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As I write this, a bunch of reporters are flying from Moscow to Havana on an Aeroflot Airbus 330, but Edward Snowden isn’t sitting among them. His whereabouts are unknown. He might still be in the V.I.P. lounge at Sheremetyevo International Airport. He could have left on another plane. There are even suggestions that he has taken shelter in the Ecuadorian Embassy in Moscow.

What we do know is that, on this side of the Atlantic, efforts are being stepped up to demonize Snowden, and to delegitimize his claim to be a conscientious objector to the huge electronic-spying apparatus operated by the United States and the United Kingdom. “This is an individual who is not acting, in my opinion, with noble intent,” General Keith Alexander, the head of the National Security Agency, told ABC’s “This Week” on Sunday. “What Snowden has revealed has caused irreversible and significant damage to our country and to our allies.” Over on CBS’s “Face the Nation,” Senator Dianne Feinstein, head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said, “I don’t think this man is a whistle-blower… he could have stayed and faced the music. I don’t think running is a noble thought.”

An unnamed senior Administration official joined the Snowden-bashing chorus, telling reporters, “Mr. Snowden’s claim that he is focussed on supporting transparency, freedom of the press, and protection of individual rights and democracy is belied by the protectors he has potentially chosen: China, Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and Ecuador. His failure to criticize these regimes suggests that his true motive throughout has been to injure the national security of the U.S., not to advance Internet freedom and free speech.”

It is easy to understand, though not to approve of, why Administration officials, who have been embarrassed by Snowden’s revelations, would seek to question his motives and exaggerate the damage he has done to national security. Feinstein, too, has been placed in a tricky spot. Tasked with overseeing the spooks and their spying operations, she appears to have done little more than nod.

More unnerving is the way in which various members of the media have failed to challenge the official line. Nobody should be surprised to see the New York Post running the headline: “ROGUES’ GALLERY: SNOWDEN JOINS LONG LIST OF NOTORIOUS, GUTLESS TRAITORS FLEEING TO RUSSIA.” But where are Snowden’s defenders? As of Monday, the editorial pages of the Times and the Washington Post, the two most influential papers in the country, hadn’t even addressed the Obama Administration’s decision to charge Snowden with two counts of violating the Espionage Act and one count of theft.

If convicted on all three counts, the former N.S.A. contract-systems administrator could face thirty years in jail. On the Sunday-morning talk shows I watched, there weren’t many voices saying that would be an excessive punishment for someone who has performed an invaluable public service. And the person who did aggressively defend Snowden’s actions, Glenn Greenwald, the Guardian blogger who was one of the reporters to break the story, found himself under attack. After suggesting that Greenwald had “aided and abetted” Snowden, David Gregory, the host of NBC’s “Meet the Press,” asked, “Why shouldn’t you, Mr. Greenwald, be charged with a crime?”

After being criticized on Twitter, Gregory said that he wasn’t taking a position on Snowden’s actions—he was merely asking a question. I’m all for journalists asking awkward questions, too. But why aren’t more of them being directed at Hayden and Feinstein and Obama, who are clearly intent on attacking the messenger?

To get a different perspective on Snowden and his disclosures, here’s a portion of an interview that ABC—the Australian Broadcasting Company, not the Disney subsidiary—did today with Thomas Drake, another former N.S.A. employee, who, in 2010, was charged with espionage for revealing details about an electronic-eavesdropping project called Trailblazer, a precursor to Operation Prism, one of the programs that Snowden documented. (The felony cases against Drake, as my colleague Jane Mayer has written, eventually collapsed, and he pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor.)

INTERVIEWER: Not everybody thinks Edward Snowden did the right thing. I presume you do…
DRAKE: I consider Edward Snowden as a whistle-blower. I know some have called him a hero, some have called him a traitor. I focus on what he disclosed. I don’t focus on him as a person. He had a belief that what he was exposed to—U.S. actions in secret—were violating human rights and privacy on a very, very large scale, far beyond anything that had been admitted to date by the government. In the public interest, he made that available.

INTERVIEWER: What do you say to the argument, advanced by those with the opposite viewpoint to you, especially in the U.S. Congress and the White House, that Edward Snowden is a traitor who made a narcissistic decision that he personally had a right to decide what public information should be in the public domain?

DRAKE: That’s a government meme, a government cover—that’s a government story. The government is desperate to not deal with the actual exposures, the content of the disclosures. Because they do reveal a vast, systemic, institutionalized, industrial-scale Leviathan surveillance state that has clearly gone far beyond the original mandate to deal with terrorism—far beyond.

As far as I’m concerned, that about covers it. I wish Snowden had followed Drake’s example and remained on U.S. soil to fight the charges against him. But I can’t condemn him for seeking refuge in a country that doesn’t have an extradition treaty with the United States. If he’d stayed here, he would almost certainly be in custody, with every prospect of staying in a cell until 2043 or later. The Obama Administration doesn’t want him to come home and contribute to the national-security-versus-liberty debate that the President says is necessary. It wants to lock him up for a long time.

And for what? For telling would-be jihadis that we are monitoring their Gmail and Facebook accounts? For informing the Chinese that we eavesdrop on many of their important institutions, including their prestigious research universities? For confirming that the Brits eavesdrop on virtually anybody they feel like? Come on. Are there many people out there who didn’t already know these things?

Snowden took classified documents from his employer, which surely broke the law. But his real crime was confirming that the intelligence agencies, despite their strenuous public denials, have been accumulating vast amounts of personal data from the American public. The puzzle is why so many media commentators continue to toe the official line. About the best explanation I’ve seen came from Josh Marshall, the founder of T.P.M., who has been one of Snowden’s critics. In a post that followed the first wave of stories, Marshall wrote, “At the end of the day, for all its faults, the U.S. military is the armed force of a political community I identify with and a government I support. I’m not a bystander to it. I’m implicated in what it does and I feel I have a responsibility and a right to a say, albeit just a minuscule one, in what it does.”

I suspect that many Washington journalists, especially the types who go on Sunday talk shows, feel the way Marshall does, but perhaps don’t have his level of self-awareness. It’s not just a matter of defending the Obama Administration, although there’s probably a bit of that. It’s something deeper, which has to do with attitudes toward authority. Proud of their craft and good at what they do, successful journalists like to think of themselves as fiercely independent. But, at the same time, they are part of the media and political establishment that stands accused of ignoring, or failing to pick up on, an intelligence outrage that’s been going on for years. It’s not surprising that some of them share Marshall’s view of Snowden as “some young guy I’ve never heard of before who espouses a political philosophy I don’t agree with and is now seeking refuge abroad for breaking the law.”

Mea culpa. Having spent almost eighteen years at The New Yorker, I’m arguably just as much a part of the media establishment as David Gregory and his guests. In this case, though, I’m with Snowden—not only for the reasons that Drake enumerated but also because of an old-fashioned and maybe nave inkling that journalists are meant to stick up for the underdog and irritate the powerful. On its side, the Obama Administration has the courts, the intelligence services, Congress, the diplomatic service, much of the media, and most of the American public. Snowden’s got Greenwald, a woman from Wikileaks, and a dodgy travel document from Ecuador. Which side are you on?

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:06 PM   #84
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While he certainly brought a legitimate issue to light, him doing it from China (albeit it Hong Kong) is a little suspect. Him then fleeing to America's longtime adversary, a country with a dreadful human rights / transparency record effectively destroys any credibility he might have.

No one had to demonize Snowden. He went to hell himself.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:07 PM   #85
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I honestly feel if he had so much conviction he'd have stayed here and done it. Yes, it would be much more dangerous but that's the principle.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:26 PM   #86
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

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While he certainly brought a legitimate issue to light, him doing it from China (albeit it Hong Kong) is a little suspect. Him then fleeing to America's longtime adversary, a country with a dreadful human rights / transparency record effectively destroys any credibility he might have.

No one had to demonize Snowden. He went to hell himself.
Hong Kong is pretty different from mainland China.

And either way, I feel like the primary reason for going to China wasn't because he supports what China does, it was a matter of pragmatism. China doesn't have any extradition treaties with the United States, so it's a pretty safe place to flee to.

Basically, I don't really see why the country he fled to matters.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:35 PM   #87
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No, Hong Kong does have extradition treaties with the United States, which is why he left. Unless the mainland intervenes, Hong Kong would have had to extradite him (even if they didn't want to, which they didn't), which is why he left. Hong Kong apparently wasn't cooperative, but if the US had really pushed for it, they would have to comply (or face the political ramifications).

If you don't see the irony and hypocrisy of someone criticizing the US for violating rights, in the backyard of a country especially known for violating those same rights... then, I don't think I can explain why it matters.

And then there's the part where he runs to Russia.

It's like complaining about how racist the government in the US is, while standing in Johannesburg circa 1980.

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Old 06-24-2013, 08:37 PM   #88
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Thomas Drake is an example of a real whistleblower. When charged with espionage, he didn't run. He faced it, and in the end, only got a misdemeanor. He stood up for what he believed in, and faced the consequences of his actions. Notice how Drake himself refuses to say whether Snowden did the right thing or not.

But this thread is about Snowden. He made this story about himself in the way he went about fighting this battle. When he first ran away, people were touting him as a hero (some still are). I'm saying, hold up, slow down and think about it: what did he actually do and why? And if it was right to do what he did, then why did he seek asylum from countries whose governments would conceivably hold an interest in exploiting him for his technical knowledge, the information that he stole, his political status or all of the above?

Cassidy asks which side we are on. I'm on the side of doing the right thing. The ends don't justify the means. You felt like you needed to break your lawful OATH to not disclose Top Secret info? Okay then, if you believe you did the right thing, stand before the court with your head held high. Don't go running off to countries that have even worse rules regarding the very thing you're fighting against!

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:30 PM   #89
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Hong Kong is pretty different from mainland China.

And either way, I feel like the primary reason for going to China wasn't because he supports what China does, it was a matter of pragmatism. China doesn't have any extradition treaties with the United States, so it's a pretty safe place to flee to.

Basically, I don't really see why the country he fled to matters.

Yeah, let him flee to the country that has been hacking the hell out of the pentagon and high level companies in the US for years....yeah, nothing matters there at all. But hey, he's in Russia now...so all is good, right?

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:42 PM   #90
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Least it isn't North Korea... I guess.

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:56 PM   #91
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Thomas Drake is an example of a real whistleblower. When charged with espionage, he didn't run. He faced it, and in the end, only got a misdemeanor. He stood up for what he believed in, and faced the consequences of his actions. Notice how Drake himself refuses to say whether Snowden did the right thing or not.

But this thread is about Snowden. He made this story about himself in the way he went about fighting this battle. When he first ran away, people were touting him as a hero (some still are). I'm saying, hold up, slow down and think about it: what did he actually do and why? And if it was right to do what he did, then why did he seek asylum from countries whose governments would conceivably hold an interest in exploiting him for his technical knowledge, the information that he stole, his political status or all of the above?

Cassidy asks which side we are on. I'm on the side of doing the right thing. The ends don't justify the means. You felt like you needed to break your lawful OATH to not disclose Top Secret info? Okay then, if you believe you did the right thing, stand before the court with your head held high. Don't go running off to countries that have even worse rules regarding the very thing you're fighting against!

Where did "not running" get Bradley Manning?

Oh that's right, the bottom of a secret prison almost completely forgotten by the public.

Playing martyr will not help Snowden's cause.

He will not get a nationally televised trail where fair pundits dissect every moment. He'll be labelled a terrorist and hidden away until the media can discuss sports again.

The people after him are bigger than the president. They answer to no one and don't care about any kind of justice. They simply want to discourage any future whistle blower by using Snowden as an example.

and if you think Snowden will get a slap on wrist then you don't understand the scope of what he uncovered.


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Old 06-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #92
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7 myths about Edward Snowden.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/174963...#axzz2XC22az1Z

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:06 PM   #93
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MD, I don't give a flying damn what happens to Snowden, at this point. Whatever happens, it will probably be worse than what would've happened if he hadn't run away to China and Russia. He should've considered these things more carefully before he decided to take this course of action.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:14 PM   #94
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Bro, did you read this article? At one point, the author compares Snowden with Harriet Tubman.

Seriously?

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:18 PM   #95
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There are steps he could have taken, we have had many whistle blowers that have gone a very different route, spoke before Congress, etc...they didn't fly off to a communist country, a country that has hacked the hell out of us.
I think the lack of higher education is what affected Edward Snowden's actions. How on Earth do you go from a GED to working with a high-up government agency? Don't they require a college degree at the very least? You just have to wonder.

Don't get me wrong, there are some smart non-college educated people out there. He should've consulted with an attorney, at the very least, and did what you posted earlier. Fleeing the country just multipled his problems by 100.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:19 PM   #96
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MD, I don't give a flying damn what happens to Snowden, at this point. Whatever happens, it will probably be worse than what would've happened if he hadn't run away to China and Russia. He should've considered these things more carefully before he decided to take this course of action.
Again, how did surrendering help Bradley Manning or Bradley Manning's cause?

Being a fugitive doesn't make a person immoral. Thousands of a runaway slaves, political prisoners and refugees seeking asylum were right to run.

and with God's grace most of them successfully escaped to a free and happy place.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:24 PM   #97
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Bro, did you read this article? At one point, the author compares Snowden with Harriet Tubman.

Seriously?
Serious as a heart attack.

People forget sometimes the law is wrong and the hunted fugitive is right.

They're not saying Snowden is a old black slave-woman.

They were both fugitives who were completely justified when the law of their time vilified and hunted them.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:27 PM   #98
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The analogy only works if Harriet Tubman would have moved to another country famous for its slavery.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:28 PM   #99
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Manning didn't exactly surrender. Somebody told the FBI what he was doing, and after they confirmed it, they arrested him and threw him in the brig.

It's true that being a fugitive doesn't make you immoral. Snowden doesn't exactly fall into or anywhere near any of the categories of fugitive you've mentioned, though.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:30 PM   #100
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I think the lack of higher education is what affected Edward Snowden's actions. How on Earth do you go from a GED to working with a high-up government agency? Don't they require a college degree at the very least? You just have to wonder.

Don't get me wrong, there are some smart non-college educated people out there. He should've consulted with an attorney, at the very least, and did what you posted earlier. Fleeing the country just multipled his problems by 100.
Or maybe the minimized indoctrination (no college) allowed him to become the whistle blower who exposed the biggest domestic spying case in public history.

"You have to wonder."

How many college graduates failed to alert the public about the far-reaching abuse of our civil liberties?

Countless college graduates.

Alot of good those college degrees did the American people.


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