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Old 06-24-2013, 10:34 PM   #101
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The analogy only works if Harriet Tubman would have moved to another country famous for its slavery.
You're looking for a perfect analogy which would require a modern equivalent to the Northern sanctuary Tubman was blessed with.

Snowden isn't stupid. He knows 90% of countries would quickly hand him over to Obama. No questions asked.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:41 PM   #102
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It looks ridiculous.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:51 PM   #103
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It looks ridiculous.
At least people are looking.

The sooner he's locked in a secret prison the sooner the media and government can sweep this under the rug.

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Old 06-25-2013, 08:27 AM   #104
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

I hope we get to see more secrets revealed. That would be interesting

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Old 06-25-2013, 08:34 AM   #105
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Because if those documents are classified, that is the very definition of treason. To reveal our capabilities and methods is, by definition, giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The twisted logic you are using is the same used by vigilantes. "I saw him commit a murder, so I shot him rather than calling the police." Get it? He should have used our system rather than operating outside it. To operate outside it, especially in the way he did, made him a criminal.
"Used our system" ? So...to prove the goverment's corruption...we use the system that the government controls? Yeah. THAT makes sense.

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Old 06-25-2013, 10:48 AM   #106
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If you don't see the irony and hypocrisy of someone criticizing the US for violating rights, in the backyard of a country especially known for violating those same rights... then, I don't think I can explain why it matters.

And then there's the part where he runs to Russia.

It's like complaining about how racist the government in the US is, while standing in Johannesburg circa 1980.
It would be hypocrisy if he was saying "the U.S. sucks for this. Not like China, China is great and has never done any of this things." But that's not the case. He didn't go to China, and the Russia, because China and Russia are better countries than the U.S. He went to those places because that's how he could avoid going to prison.

He's no promoting these countries as being innocent of the crimes he accuses the Unites States of, so why does it matter?

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Old 06-25-2013, 12:06 PM   #107
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How many college graduates failed to alert the public about the far-reaching abuse of our civil liberties?

Countless college graduates.

Alot of good those college degrees did the American people.
I'm not implying that. The big question is, how on Earth did Snowden manage to secure a job at a high-ranking government organization with only a GED to his name in the first place?

If you're at a business for a long time, and work your way up... that's one story. But it's another if a friend at the business is 'suggesting' your name for a top position where you're lacking one or several key requirements... and you get the position anyway.

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Old 06-25-2013, 12:34 PM   #108
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I'm not implying that. The big question is, how on Earth did Snowden manage to secure a job at a high-ranking government organization with only a GED to his name in the first place?
By being good at his job. It happens. Someone probably referred him for being good with numbers and computers and people who are in charge of hiring agreed with that assessment and then hired him.

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Old 06-25-2013, 01:09 PM   #109
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....but he still could have gone to the Inspector General, which is exactly what he should have done. If that had failed to get anything done, THEN he could have gone to the press and would have a much better defense. He has none now.
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Thomas Drake is an example of a real whistleblower. When charged with espionage, he didn't run. He faced it, and in the end, only got a misdemeanor. He stood up for what he believed in, and faced the consequences of his actions. Notice how Drake himself refuses to say whether Snowden did the right thing or not.

But this thread is about Snowden. He made this story about himself in the way he went about fighting this battle. When he first ran away, people were touting him as a hero (some still are). I'm saying, hold up, slow down and think about it: what did he actually do and why? And if it was right to do what he did, then why did he seek asylum from countries whose governments would conceivably hold an interest in exploiting him for his technical knowledge, the information that he stole, his political status or all of the above?

Cassidy asks which side we are on. I'm on the side of doing the right thing. The ends don't justify the means. You felt like you needed to break your lawful OATH to not disclose Top Secret info? Okay then, if you believe you did the right thing, stand before the court with your head held high. Don't go running off to countries that have even worse rules regarding the very thing you're fighting against!
+1


And Snowden's leaving the U.S. for China and Russia--while not necessarily holding them as the bastians of personal freedom--matters, because of two reasons:

1.) It destroys the credibility of the ideological stance he claimed to hold dear; the one that compelled him to expose top secret documents and blow the lid on our governments illegal activities in the first place, instead of looking the other way. He acted as though he felt he had a moral responsibility to unveil proof that our government is butchering our constitutional rights and sidestepping the law when it is inconvenient for them; that he had a duty to shout from the rooftops because personal privacy and freedom is something he feels all people should have. He says he won't run.

Then soon after he takes secret documents with him and flees to China, and to Russia shortly after that. Why? Because he needs a country that won't extradite him back to the U.S. Snowden asked Russia for help--for Asylum. A country that has a long history of denying it's citizens personal freedoms.

Suddenly, all his ideological grandiosity blustered to the newspapers in which he painted himself as a hero, is dropped to the wayside in favor of doing what is immediately purely practical only in the interest of self protection. Not sacrificing ideology and assuming practicality in the interest of the people, but practicality that will only benefit himself.



2.) It matters because Snowden has stolen top secret information with him while he is staying in Russia. I would be shocked if either China or Russia didn't ask for a little trade in exchange for their help.

And that, is a very big problem. That matters.



Snowden started off doing the right thing by blowing the lid on our government's illegal activities. (Although he should have used his head first and went through the proper internal channels before going to the papers, as Kelly has said. It most likely wouldn't have accomplished anything, but at least he would have had a case as a legitimate whistleblower when he was brought before the court. He could at least say, "Hey, I tried to do it the proper way!")

But as soon as he took sensitive information with him to go to Russia, of all places....its becoming clearer and clearer that this is all about him now--However noble and self sacrificing and "for the people" it may have been at the start. It is no longer that way now.

It is also irritating just how much our administration is directing attention away from proof of thier breaking the law; choosing instead to focus on how much Snowden is a "traitor" and an extreme danger to our national security. The rampant display of nepotism is staggering to me.

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Old 06-25-2013, 01:40 PM   #110
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Default Re: The Edward Snowden thread

True, going through what I proposed first probably would not have done anything....that's really not the point of going through those steps. What it does is make you more credible when nothing is done, so you THEN GO TO THE PRESS. Going to the press first, and then running threw out all credibility IMO.

As far as the government breaking the law? Unless it can be proven that they listen to the details of the phone calls without a warrant, is when they are breaking the law. If that can't be proven, no evidence, no law broken. : /

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:06 PM   #111
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He's only going to China and Russia to cover his tracks somewhat and transit to an undisclosed location that will grant asylum.

He's not staying in Russia or China for any extended amount of time. He's doing what he has to in order to find asylum in another country instead of rotting in a prison or being assassinated.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or transit in this case).

In no way does using certain a ”evil” country's airport overshadow the great service this man has done for the American people. He deserves to be free and happy even if that means using Chine/Russian terminals or planes.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:11 PM   #112
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True, going through what I proposed first probably would not have done anything....that's really not the point of going through those steps. What it does is make you more credible when nothing is done, so you THEN GO TO THE PRESS. Going to the press first, and then running threw out all credibility IMO.

As far as the government breaking the law? Unless it can be proven that they listen to the details of the phone calls without a warrant, is when they are breaking the law. If that can't be proven, no evidence, no law broken. : /
Yeah of course it's hard to prove. The supreme court can't even get the NSA to share the details of their operations no matter how valid the concerns.

They are above government, above any laws and easily above any public oversight.

They answer to no one.

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Old 06-25-2013, 03:32 PM   #113
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This man is a genuine patriot and hero. Could anyone with truth in hindsight say you could stand up and tell the truth of wrongful doings of the government? Could you stand up and say what you knew, knowing you would be hunted down everyday for the rest of your life? Its hard to imagine to be honest. Everyday I try to at least tell myself I could do the right thing no matter the consequences, after all that is a real hero.

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Old 06-25-2013, 03:55 PM   #114
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This man is a genuine patriot and hero. Could anyone with truth in hindsight say you could stand up and tell the truth of wrongful doings of the government? Could you stand up and say what you knew, knowing you would be hunted down everyday for the rest of your life? Its hard to imagine to be honest. Everyday I try to at least tell myself I could do the right thing no matter the consequences, after all that is a real hero.
He's no hero; more like a coward for running to foreign countries, talking to the press about what he did, and getting help from WikiLeaks. Plus, threatening to release names of NSA employees if he's arrested is beyond cowardly and potentially dangerous to those names he has. He could easily have found some sympathetic ears in the Senate or House to get to the bottom of the NSA's program, but instead stole the information and is now seemingly selling himself and the information to whoever will have him.

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Old 06-25-2013, 04:00 PM   #115
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Yeah of course it's hard to prove. The supreme court can't even get the NSA to share the details of their operations no matter how valid the concerns.

They are above government, above any laws and easily above any public oversight.

They answer to no one.

I agree...

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Old 06-25-2013, 05:09 PM   #116
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He's no hero; more like a coward for running to foreign countries, talking to the press about what he did, and getting help from WikiLeaks. Plus, threatening to release names of NSA employees if he's arrested is beyond cowardly and potentially dangerous to those names he has. He could easily have found some sympathetic ears in the Senate or House to get to the bottom of the NSA's program, but instead stole the information and is now seemingly selling himself and the information to whoever will have him.
I didn't know about the whlole threatening to release employees thing. Either way, maybe he has more to tell in interviews in those other counties before he wants to be found. Also, whats wrong with wikileaks?

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Old 06-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #117
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Pepper your anguses for my opinion:

Snowden was a hero for alerting us to the government's wiretapping activities. When Snowden compromised the country by exposing our spying activities abroad, he became the villain. I can't help but wonder if US agents are closer to Snowden than the media is letting on. If Snowden is captured while reports continue to run about Snowden being on the dodge, the agents have carte blanche to interrogate him however they like. Once news of Snowden's capture becomes public, the feds will have to deal with whatever lawyers Snowden can get.

Those college degrees did do the degree holders a lot of good--they got them cushy jobs with a nice retirement plan. I can't hold it against them for being mum about the wiretapping stuff.

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Old 06-25-2013, 05:36 PM   #118
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He's only going to China and Russia to cover his tracks somewhat and transit to an undisclosed location that will grant asylum.

He's not staying in Russia or China for any extended amount of time. He's doing what he has to in order to find asylum in another country instead of rotting in a prison or being assassinated.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend (or transit in this case).

In no way does using certain a ”evil” country's airport overshadow the great service this man has done for the American people. He deserves to be free and happy even if that means using Chine/Russian terminals or planes.
You are aware that it is against the law to assassinate US citizens who haven't revoked their citizenship.

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Old 06-25-2013, 05:41 PM   #119
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To be fair, the government has targeted and killed US citizens, so... I don't know how much that law means these days.

But the man has lost all credibility in my eyes.

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Old 06-25-2013, 06:49 PM   #120
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Hong Kong is pretty different from mainland China.

And either way, I feel like the primary reason for going to China wasn't because he supports what China does, it was a matter of pragmatism. China doesn't have any extradition treaties with the United States, so it's a pretty safe place to flee to.

Basically, I don't really see why the country he fled to matters.

it doesn't. it's the running that makes him a coward.

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:15 PM   #121
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Why is avoiding unfair proscecution considered cowardly?

Are political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries cowardly?

Our government protects criminals who snitch on other criminals but targets patriots who inform the public about war crimes and civil liberty abuses for lengthy jail sentences.

Why would anyone surrender to such hypocrisy? He deserves a medal of freedom, not a 30 year stint in darkened, secret prison. If he was guaranteed an open and fair trial that's one thing but he'll just get quickly locked away for decades like Bradley Manning.

What's the point of that? It sends the wrong message to potential whistleblower/patriots.


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Old 06-25-2013, 07:20 PM   #122
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You are aware that it is against the law to assassinate US citizens who haven't revoked their citizenship.
Are you saying the CIA is above playing dirty?

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:22 PM   #123
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Why does avoiding unfair proscecution cowardly?

Are political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries cowardly?

Our government protects criminals who snitch on other criminals but targets patriots who inform the public about war crimes and civil liberty abuses lengthy jail sentences.

Why would anyone surrender to such hypocrisy? He deserves a medal of freedom, not a 30 year stint in darkened, secret prison. If he was guaranteed an open and fair trial that's one thing but he'll just get quickly locked away for decades like Bradley Manning.

What's the point of that? It sends the wrong message to potential whistleblower/patriots.
Exactly, by him not giving in hes not stooping o the level of ouovernment.

Besides I highly doubt almost anyone on here could do what he did knowing the consequences. Trust prison would probably be a better standard of living for him compared to the way hes living currently

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:24 PM   #124
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Why is avoiding unfair proscecution considered cowardly?

Are political dissidents who seek asylum in other countries cowardly?

Our government protects criminals who snitch on other criminals but targets patriots who inform the public about war crimes and civil liberty abuses for lengthy jail sentences.

Why would anyone surrender to such hypocrisy? He deserves a medal of freedom, not a 30 year stint in darkened, secret prison. If he was guaranteed an open and fair trial that's one thing but he'll just get quickly locked away for decades like Bradley Manning.

What's the point of that? It sends the wrong message to potential whistleblower/patriots.
If the dissidents don't stand up for their beliefs in the face of the system that they view as broken, yes.

Snowden stepped from patriot to traitor when he disclosed information about our overseas information networks.

Your third point assumes that Snowden won't be interrogated before the media reports that Snowden has been found.

I can't address your last point. As I've stated, I'm glad Snowden let it leak about our govt keeping tabs on its superiors.

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Old 06-26-2013, 02:58 PM   #125
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Apparently Hong Kong disapproved of the US' extradition orders due to the US government using the wrong middle name for Snowden. Sloppy work by whoever prepared the documents.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...rong-hong-kong

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