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View Poll Results: "S" plastic shield vs broken neck.
"S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies. 7 6.93%
Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives. 94 93.07%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-17-2013, 01:04 AM   #576
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I love this scene strictly because there was no cop-out happening. There was 100% resolution. Superman had to put Zod down like the loose wild animal he had become.

Not everyone liked it....but, it was definitive. Credit to the writers for not having Supes fly away and not have to make such a devastating choice. THAT would have been too easy imo.
^ I liked that since they put him in that situation (one that I STILL think he shouldn't have been put in) they went with it. No "I'm not saving you" or launching missiles as being better than "guns and killing."

Superman did everything he could have at the museum to stop Zod. He could have propped his head away, but he wouldn't be able to do that forever. Zod was totally pulling a suicide-by-cop routine.

The transition from horror to comfort felt jarring, but I think it reflects Superman's first encounter with Lois. He comforts her through her fear, she does the same regarding his apprehension. As for not attending to the carnage, either everyone has left, or everyone is dead, since he has superhearing and should be able to hear screams of help from nearby.

The kissing part doesn't hold up to criticism, but neither does Suoperman revealing enough info to Lois for Lex Luthor to piece together his weakness.

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:25 AM   #577
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Someone on another forum had this very good explanation as to how Supes beat the better trained Zod....

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And in response to the question of how Kal-El managed to defeat Zod, I get the distinct feeling that Zod actually WANTED to die. His planet, people, and whole reason for existing were gone. The only thing left for him is a warrior's death, and Kal-El is the only person on Earth who could provide that. So he deliberately pushes Kal-El to the point where he has no choice. That's how I interpret the final battle.

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:31 AM   #578
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Sounds like you guys really wanted a "Safe" movie. You wanted Zod sucked into the Phantom Zone in some lame or contrived way. You're saying that they should have written the scene differently so Superman wouldn't be in that position.

Really? You want the whole scene to be different because you wouldn't want Superman to be in that position? That's so dumb. I liked how he was put in a situation we hadn't seen before, and so it was shocking what he had to do. There was no other choice.

And those that are saying "He could have just flown or turned his head"....okay? Then what? They just continue fighting, destroying more buildings killing more people? Tell me people, what else could have been done? Keep fighting forever until the whole Earth is destroyed? Zod was never going to stop. He couldn't be reasoned with. There was only one thing Superman could do. And it obviously pained him.

SO I'm not seeing the problem.

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Old 06-17-2013, 07:54 AM   #579
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I think it kinda makes superman scary, Which is pretty interesting. Reminds me of that Luthor Man of Steel mini.

As an audience though we know better and we know the circumstances.
-considering how impossible it was for superman to contain that fight even for a second, pretty sure he saved countless cities with that choice, and let's not think of what might have happened if zod got the upper hand later on.

I revisited Superman two and I couldn't help but notice how much down time the villains had during the fight, seemingly standing there and observing(all 3). Put a starbucks cup in zods hands and no one would be the wiser. In MoS there is a vibe that if superman let up on zod for even half a minute it would be a disaster(probably for him).

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:15 AM   #580
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I just have a few questions

First aren't all Kryptonians who comes to Earth becomes Invulnerable and practically Immortal??

How can Superman even able to break his neck?

And if I can buy that Kryptonians are strong enough to break an invulnerable neck then days later Zod's body would have healed and come back due to it being exposed to the power of solar radiation just like Superman did in Superman Doomsday.

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:45 AM   #581
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I just have a few questions

First aren't all Kryptonians who comes to Earth becomes Invulnerable and practically Immortal??

How can Superman even able to break his neck?

And if I can buy that Kryptonians are strong enough to break an invulnerable neck then days later Zod's body would have healed and come back due to it being exposed to the power of solar radiation just like Superman did in Superman Doomsday.
Superman needs his heart to live just like he needs his eyes to see.
Pretty sure if someone could do that to superman he would be down.

But I think you are right, the solar healing factor/process could very well bring him back from the dead. The thing about the doomsday kill was that it didn't "kill superman" but put his body in hibernation mode.

Kryptonite and death under red radiation would probably do it though.

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Old 06-17-2013, 08:58 AM   #582
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Thing is....It doesn't matter what the circumstance.....any circumstance can be invented where Superman is reasonably cornered into using deadly force......The debate should only be around..... whether or not Superman should be allowed to kill....period.

I steadfastly vote no on the question.....it's a line he should never cross.

It seems to me if the answer is yes, which MOS clearly accepts, where do you draw the line? Is deadly force appropriate to save...ten lives, one hundred lives, one thousand lives, Lois' life, or in the case of the crminally insane(can it not be argued that Zod was "criminally insane", i.e. unable to stop or control his desire.).

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:10 AM   #583
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Thing is....It doesn't matter what the circumstance.....any circumstance can be invented where Superman is reasonably cornered into using deadly force......The debate should only be around..... whether or not Superman should be allowed to kill....period.

I steadfastly vote no on the question.....it's a line he should never cross.

It seems to me if the answer is yes, which MOS clearly accepts, where do you draw the line? Is deadly force appropriate to save...ten lives, one hundred lives, one thousand lives, Lois' life, or in the case of the crminally insane(can it not be argued that Zod was "criminally insane", i.e. unable to stop or control his desire.).
It could also be argued that it was a war time kill.
It could also be argued that killing an alien is as morally ambiguous as killing a Dolphin...and then killing a chicken by way of arguement.

As for the simple quesiton, yes, I think he should be allowed to kill. Batman is a creature sprung from death and killing. The theme is embedded into the characters thesis if you will. Superman represents other things. One of which is the "american way" That sense of morality is of the greater good. Unless we want to speculate that the midwestern Kents lived the frontier lifestyle but raised a buddhist.

When given no other choice, I'm fine with superman choosing the greater good. When given a choice I'd rather he take the hard road.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:29 AM   #584
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

This is an origin story, the first time Kal-El shows himself to the people of Earth. It's the first time he encounters a situation where he can potentially save billions of lives by choosing to end a single a life. Kal-El is still young in this movie. I think the execution of Zod is an emotional scene which should be used as motivation for Kal-El to establish a "no killing policy" as he continues to serve as a symbol for hope on Earth.

I like the fact that a young Kal-El learns first-hand what it feels like to kill, to arguably take the easy way out of a confrontation by eliminating his opponent instead of finding a peaceful resolution. The film is aptly titled "The Man of Steel" because Kal-El is not Superman yet, he is still a man who learning to be something greater. This is a powerful scene that challenges conventional depictions of Kal-El and so it has drawn a great deal of criticism, maybe rightfully so. But IMO the criticism doesn't hold up. How can Kal-El truly know the value and sanctity of life without knowing what it feels like to use his incredible powers to take a life?

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:32 AM   #585
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:34 AM   #586
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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Thing is....It doesn't matter what the circumstance.....any circumstance can be invented where Superman is reasonably cornered into using deadly force......The debate should only be around..... whether or not Superman should be allowed to kill....period.

I steadfastly vote no on the question.....it's a line he should never cross.

It seems to me if the answer is yes, which MOS clearly accepts, where do you draw the line? Is deadly force appropriate to save...ten lives, one hundred lives, one thousand lives, Lois' life, or in the case of the crminally insane(can it not be argued that Zod was "criminally insane", i.e. unable to stop or control his desire.).
It could also be argued that it was a war time kill.
It could also be argued that killing an alien is as morally ambiguous as killing a Dolphin...and then killing a chicken by way of arguement.

As for the simple quesiton, yes, I think he should be allowed to kill. Batman is a creature sprung from death and killing. The theme is embedded into the characters thesis if you will. Superman represents other things. One of which is the "american way" That sense of morality is of the greater good. Unless we want to speculate that the midwestern Kents lived the frontier lifestyle but raised a buddhist.

When given no other choice, I'm fine with superman choosing the greater good. When given a choice I'd rather he take the hard road.

I disagree. You certainly can "contrive" of "any" situation in which he would have no choice, but, for the most part, they would be just that, contrived.

I actually completely LOVED this moment, and was genuinely shocked by it.
Although Superman and Batman have nearly identical views on killing, Superman isn't the one who ALWAYS has a million plans of approach for pretty much any situation.

I thought they did an amazing job setting up that situation: a man just as, if not more powerful than Superman, given Zod's training, who has nothing to loose, nothing is more dangerous: Zod was clearly trying to push Superman to that point, in that moment, where he had no choice. It was either total destruction, or his own death for Zod.
But it wasn't even just a matter of saving the billions of POTENTIAL deaths, it was the only option for him, in that moment, to save those lives, on top of everything else.

On top of that, it created a defining moment for him. You KNOW, after that moment, that he will NEVER kill again. This was his first time out basically, and he was basically forced out into the open by Zod. His first real time as Superman, he is facing a freaking alien invasion of Kryptonians. He's an amateur in these moments.

It's not like he's had years of fighting "threats" in a "paper world," if you will, and had any significant experience with dealing with someone (several someones in this case) who's powers match, if not exceed, his own.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:37 AM   #587
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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On top of that, it created a defining moment for him. You KNOW, after that moment, that he will NEVER kill again. This was his first time out basically, and he was basically forced out into the open by Zod. His first real time as Superman, he is facing a freaking alien invasion of Kryptonians. He's an amateur in these moments.
that is exactly the sentiment i was trying to express

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:37 AM   #588
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

I had no issue with Supes killing Zod my only issue was the way it went down. After all the tussling and throwing around Zod was an immovable object?

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:38 AM   #589
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Moreover superman is one of the few who has the fate of billions at stake, not so much with batman.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:42 AM   #590
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

Quote:
A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?
First of all: ridiculous scenario. What case in which Superman brings a murderer to the police are they going to let him go free again? Ridiculous.

But if it happened, I imagine Superman would catch the man again and have him put in prison for life. But that is only if he chose to murder again, because he respects our laws and justice system.

Someone like that would probably be on Superman's radar so I don't think he'd get away with murder, and I think the second time around Kal would make sure not to botch the evidence (though it seems like that's something he'd do the first time).

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:42 AM   #591
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?
No, absolutely not, for the same reason Batman will never kill the Joker.

Killing in a moment of immediate defense, self or of others, is different than an ends justifies the means preemptive killing, and even more so than a punitive killing.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:45 AM   #592
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I had no issue with Supes killing Zod my only issue was the way it went down. After all the tussling and throwing around Zod was an immovable object?
If you can fly off in any direction at any moment at great speeds...I feel like it would be pretty easy to use that same power to hold yourself still. So yes, Zod was immovable, he held himself in that position and forced Superman to either watch those humans die or end his own life.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:45 AM   #593
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I had no issue with Supes killing Zod my only issue was the way it went down. After all the tussling and throwing around Zod was an immovable object?
I think that was the point of all the "tussling and throwing around" before that moment. To establish that there was no way he could have stopped Zod. Zod was, at the very least, from a powers level, Superman's equal, if not greater due to his training. The option of the Phantom Zone was now gone, and Zod really was an "immovable object/unstoppable force" at that point.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:46 AM   #594
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?
In your scenario.....the serial killer has the possibility to either kill or not kill again. You can't guarantee what he will do. So he can't kill him to prevent further crimes that he isn't sure will happen. It's more likely that Superman will keep an eye on the killer and stop him before he kills again, but now have the evidence to put him away.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:48 AM   #595
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I had no issue with Supes killing Zod my only issue was the way it went down. After all the tussling and throwing around Zod was an immovable object?

See what I wrote above. I believe that Zod wanted to die. It was a warriors death. He failed his mission to save Krypton or continue its legacy. So he may not have fought...too hard to win.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:51 AM   #596
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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I just have a few questions

First aren't all Kryptonians who comes to Earth becomes Invulnerable and practically Immortal??

How can Superman even able to break his neck?

And if I can buy that Kryptonians are strong enough to break an invulnerable neck then days later Zod's body would have healed and come back due to it being exposed to the power of solar radiation just like Superman did in Superman Doomsday.
When facing someone the same power level, it makes sense. The same way a steel pipe smashed against another steel pipe would bend said pipe.
It's pretty much the ONLY way he could do it, outside of being weakened by something, magic, or kryptonite, or back in the ship.

Not to mention, it was implied in the film, and stated by the film makers, that the idea is that the longer the exposure, the more his powers would develop. So, even though Zod was able to hone his abilities more quickly, given his training, he simply had not been exposed tot he yellow sun as long as Superman. As such, it is reasonable to assume that his body was not quite as strong as Superman.

Clearly his strength was on par, but his body itself might not have been fully "hardened," if you will, by the sun, compared to Clark's lifetime of exposure.

Also, in the movie world, maybe they aren't making him completely invulnerable.
Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the somewhat underpowered Kal, ala TAS, but they did show him somewhat struggling a bit with holding up the rig in his first scene.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:52 AM   #597
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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As for a final outcome, they'd have to create another wormhole or something for Superman to fling Zod into. It'd be too fantastical for Nolan, I'll guarantee you. I'm sure Goyer already had to provide a LONG explanation on why the PT CAN exist :P
So it's "realistic" the rest of crew to sucked into a wormhole but for Zod to get sucked in...now that's just unrealistic

That's my problem with the so-called "realism" in movies like this. Was it realistic that although there were like a dozen kryptonians Superman only has to fight 3 Not once do with other guys jump in the action when when Zod or Faora are having trouble? Then they all get sucked into the portal? How is any of that realistic?

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:54 AM   #598
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?
Nope. Use his super-hearing, X-ray vision, superspeed, and strength and catch him again before he manages to hurt anyone. Repeat if necessary. There will be evidence sooner or later.

He can monitor anyone closely, but doesn't out of respect. I think being a serial killer on the loose will cost you your privacy.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:56 AM   #599
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

My whole thing is I would've thought someone like Superman (who was so worried about protecting people) would've done something to lure Zod away from the city.

In both fights (Smallville/Metropolis) Supes immediately starts brawling. It's a huge departure from everything I've ever known about the character.

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Old 06-17-2013, 09:57 AM   #600
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER*

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A scenario.......
Clark Kent walking past a building hears a woman scream inside. A quick change to Superman, and he thwarts a crime. The criminal is placed in police custody. Turns out he is a serial killer...responsible for multiple gruesome murders.......Superman arrived just in time to save the woman.

Now assume for the sake of argument that due to a gross mishandling of evidence....the serial killer walks.......Just as sure as the sun rises, he will kill again..... Should Superman for the greater good permanently eliminate this certain threat to life?
He'd write the dudes name on "the list" from Arrow and let Ollie do the job

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