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Old 06-17-2013, 11:54 AM   #76
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Ramming speed wasn't his first approach, especially before he encountered the fleischer tentacles. If ramming speed was his initial approach he could have done it from the jump no?
You're answering my question with a question ...... I assumed you understood Supes intentions from the get go so I'm asking you.

I'm guessing he left his wire cutting kit and home and was attempting to destroy it. He was sidetracked a bit by the random tentacle monster defense system, but really at the end of the day what was the real struggle here? All it took was for him to fly at full speed at the machine.

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Old 06-17-2013, 12:02 PM   #77
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfgC2esXEaE

This could have been inserted in the middle of the movie. Except, you know, people would have said that it didn't seem awful enough given all the destruction.

Think about how big a deal 9/11 was.

I don't care how much time may have passed from the fight to him biking up to the daily planet. It doesn't work because the audience is asked to have these things happen within 5 minutes of one another. I mean, at least have a framed front page in the offices that says "Man of Steel helps clean up crew". SOMETHING! Anything to indicate this destruction mattered. Because, as it comes across in the film, when one of the civilians says something like "he saved us" while they emerge from a desert of death all I could think was "Yeah, all 5 of you. Everyone else you know and love in this city is deader than dead."


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Old 06-17-2013, 12:18 PM   #78
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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You're answering my question with a question ...... I assumed you understood Supes intentions from the get go so I'm asking you.

I'm guessing he left his wire cutting kit and home and was attempting to destroy it. He was sidetracked a bit by the random tentacle monster defense system, but really at the end of the day what was the real struggle here? All it took was for him to fly at full speed at the machine.
Probably planed to get inside. It's what I call the Woverine vs sentinel approach

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:04 PM   #79
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

I'm getting a little tired of people who cannot see the forest for the trees with regard to the final battle.

Zod told Superman he was going to make the people of Metropolis suffer and die.

And as such, Superman was trying to stop Zod from killing lots of people.

If Superman stopped to...I dunno, catch a building or something (could he even? We never saw Superman display that level of strength in this film, did we?), then what do you think Zod would have done in the meantime? Wait for Superman to save people? Nope. He would have continued to PUMMEL SUPERMAN AND TOSS HIM THROUGH BUILDINGS WHILE SUPERMAN WAS OTHERWISE DISTRACTED.

That's right. Zod would have KILLED MORE PEOPLE. CAUSED MORE DESTRUCTION.

During the sequence, Superman was rightly focused on ENDING THE THREAT. Which was Zod's rampage.

Pay attention to the scene. Superman isn't exactly tackling Zod through buildings, like he did in Smallville. He learned his lesson there about collateral damage and controlling himself. Zod is throwing Superman through them. Zod is strategically picking targets, and tossing Superman through as many structures as he can to maximize the damage he's doing. And once Superman figures that out, he does everything he can to stem the destruction, from starting trying to stop midflight/arc after he's thrown, to changing the very direction of the battle (diving straight down at Zod in that one shot), and eventually takes the battle into space, after which he is finally able to gain the upper hand.

This isn't exactly your typical "disaster" sequence, where Superman has a few "hotspots" to focus on. This is a RAGING SUPERHUMAN attempting to kill as many people as he can because he is out of control.

In context, and by any reasonable standard, Superman didn't do anything wrong in this scene. He shouldn't have needed to stopped to holler to some Metropolis citizens who should damn well have been able to see that their city was being leveled, "Run! It's not safe!". He should have done exactly what he did. Focused on stopping Zod as soon as possible.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:07 PM   #80
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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You're answering my question with a question ...... I assumed you understood Supes intentions from the get go so I'm asking you.

I'm guessing he left his wire cutting kit and home and was attempting to destroy it. He was sidetracked a bit by the random tentacle monster defense system, but really at the end of the day what was the real struggle here? All it took was for him to fly at full speed at the machine.
The struggle was that the machine was making Earth like Krypton so he was weaker, particularly nearest the machine -- hence the coughing. He needed to summon more strength in good ol' kryptonite plot-point fashion.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:12 PM   #81
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I'm getting a little tired of people who cannot see the forest for the trees with regard to the final battle.

Zod told Superman he was going to make the people of Metropolis suffer and die.

And as such, Superman was trying to stop Zod from killing lots of people.

If Superman stopped to...I dunno, catch a building or something (could he even? We never saw Superman display that level of strength in this film, did we?), then what do you think Zod would have done in the meantime? Wait for Superman to save people? Nope. He would have continued to PUMMEL SUPERMAN AND TOSS HIM THROUGH BUILDINGS WHILE SUPERMAN WAS OTHERWISE DISTRACTED.

That's right. Zod would have KILLED MORE PEOPLE. CAUSED MORE DESTRUCTION.

During the sequence, Superman was rightly focused on ENDING THE THREAT. Which was Zod's rampage.

Pay attention to the scene. Superman isn't exactly tackling Zod through buildings, like he did in Smallville. He learned his lesson there about collateral damage and controlling himself. Zod is throwing Superman through them. Zod is strategically picking targets, and tossing Superman through as many structures as he can to maximize the damage he's doing. And once Superman figures that out, he does everything he can to stem the destruction, from starting trying to stop midflight/arc after he's thrown, to changing the very direction of the battle (diving straight down at Zod in that one shot), and eventually takes the battle into space, after which he is finally able to gain the upper hand.

This isn't exactly your typical "disaster" sequence, where Superman has a few "hotspots" to focus on. This is a RAGING SUPERHUMAN attempting to kill as many people as he can because he is out of control.

In context, and by any reasonable standard, Superman didn't do anything wrong in this scene. He shouldn't have needed to stopped to holler to some Metropolis citizens who should damn well have been able to see that their city was being leveled, "Run! It's not safe!". He should have done exactly what he did. Focused on stopping Zod as soon as possible.
Y'know I'm falling for this film as I think about it more and more but the truth is this particular flaw won't go away.

If he's trying so damn hard to protect people by ending the threat quickly, why does he fly Zod straight into a train station full of people?

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:17 PM   #82
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Y'know I'm falling for this film as I think about it more and more but the truth is this particular flaw won't go away.

If he's trying so damn hard to protect people by ending the threat quickly, why does he fly Zod straight into a train station full of people?
Though Superman has Zod, I'm sure Zod has a bit of control over their trajectory -- intentionally or otherwise.

It's like tackling someone. They still have some control over their body despite your opposing force -- unless your force is so much greater, which was not the case.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:22 PM   #83
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

I don't buy it. It's one of those contrived moves to generate a tense situation.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:25 PM   #84
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I don't buy it. It's one of those contrived moves to generate a tense situation.
It's a movie, so yeah.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:27 PM   #85
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Have you considered seeing anyone about this disregard for life in favour of entertainment? Oh wait, it's entertainment. Right...but realism!

How did you feel about the destruction and possible loss of civilian life in The Avengers?

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:29 PM   #86
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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It's a movie, so yeah.
Understandably so, but in the past the Goyer/Nolan films have had such situations as well but they've not intrinsically altered a character's portrayal.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:30 PM   #87
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

The train station happened in The Avengers as well. Hulk and Thor crashed the Leviathan straight through the train station as people inside of the station scurried out of the way. Perhaps some of those poor people were crushed.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:32 PM   #88
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Understandably so, but in the past the Goyer/Nolan films have had such situations as well but they've not intrinsically altered a character's portrayal.
I just don't think Superman purposely crashed him into the station. That's not how I took it at all.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:32 PM   #89
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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So I've always thought Metropolis was the DC equivalent of Chicago. (I know many comics depict it as east coast. And even neighbors with Gotham. But Chicago makes more sense to me. It's closer to Smallville, more central USA, heck there's even a city called Metropolis in Illinois!

Anyway. For example, Chicago has a population of 2.8 million (rounded up) and an area of 234 square miles. No time in the film do we get a survey of the damage of more than a few square miles. Factor that in with the fact that many people (with common sense during an alien invasion) were probably able to escape.

I estimate no more than a 40-50 thousand casualties. Including those in Smallville. Superman saved billions of innocent lives.

40-50 seems extremely low, but I definitely agree that the people claiming that "millions of people" died aren't thinking very clearly.

Even if Metropolis has a population of a few million, no more than a few hundred thousand are going to be in the downtown area at a given time. And it sure looked like a substantial portion of downtown was leveled. Subtracting the people who got out, I think you're looking at a death toll in the thousands, probably something like 10,000-20,000. Well more than 9/11 or London, but not millions of deaths.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:34 PM   #90
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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The train station happened in The Avengers as well. Hulk and Thor crashed the Leviathan straight through the train station as people inside of the station scurried out of the way. Perhaps some of those poor people were crushed.
First off, who cares about Avengers in talking about Man of Steel. It doesn't work to defend a movie by saying another movie did something wrong.

But, if you want to play that game, the Avengers at least had Cap making a plan that was entirely related to containing the threat and trying to get civilians out of harms way. AND, they had that video montage at the end of people either being happy/weary about the Avengers. There was at least acknowledgement. That's all that some of us are asking for.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:36 PM   #91
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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The train station happened in The Avengers as well. Hulk and Thor crashed the Leviathan straight through the train station as people inside of the station scurried out of the way. Perhaps some of those poor people were crushed.
I'm sure they were but there's one major difference between Man of Steel and the Avengers.

First up, Joss Whedon never made a claim to ground the film in realism and repeatedly bash that fact over people's heads.

Secondly whilst the Avengers have surely had humanity's best interests at heart, the swoop in and save the day quality is a Superman thing. It's what I've loved him for. Not having that makes a difference to me.

Thirdly, Joss Whedon explores the loss of life and danger humanity's facing through the entire Captain America arc during the final battle. It addresses it without putting it under the rug from the heroes' perspective.

More so, there was plenty criticism leveled at the Avengers regarding the danger they posed and so on. But they addressed it in the film itself.

Here we get the poorly developed staff at the Daily Planet to play out this certain facet of Superman's character. Yeah. No. It's not enough for me.

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I just don't think Superman purposely crashed him into the station. That's not how I took it at all.
Here's the thing. I don't think he did either. And that's the issue. The Superman I know and love would try his hardest to drive the flightpath away from any place where innocent civilians happen to be. He'd squirm, struggle and push himself till he can do that. And he'd still get up and throw down after.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:37 PM   #92
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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First off, who cares about Avengers in talking about Man of Steel. It doesn't work to defend a movie by saying another movie did something wrong.

But, if you want to play that game, the Avengers at least had Cap making a plan that was entirely related to containing the threat and trying to get civilians out of harms way. AND, they had that video montage at the end of people either being happy/weary about the Avengers. There was at least acknowledgement. That's all that some of us are asking for.
Acknowledgement would have been nice.

I know at some point during production there were these Rebuild Metropolis signs but they must have cut it out or it was just background material.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:38 PM   #93
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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First off, who cares about Avengers in talking about Man of Steel. It doesn't work to defend a movie by saying another movie did something wrong.

But, if you want to play that game, the Avengers at least had Cap making a plan that was entirely related to containing the threat and trying to get civilians out of harms way. AND, they had that video montage at the end of people either being happy/weary about the Avengers. There was at least acknowledgement. That's all that some of us are asking for.

I brought up Avengers because I'm saying that it's not a new concept for heroes to engage in battles causing city-wide destruction and not cause some casualties.

Yes Cap had a plan that contained the threat and the other civilians, and The Avengers carried out the plan by containing the threat. That doesn't change the fact that they still caused damage that could have harmed innocents. Hulk rampaging through a building full of civilians, Iron Man flying through a Leviathan causing it to explode(what about the explosion? Could have harmed people back there, Hulk and Thor crashing a Leviathan through a populated train station.

My point is, during times like this, the civilians need to evacuate as soon as possible. The heroes are busy dealing with much larger threats, so they can't be constantly occupied by trying to get civilians out of harm's way.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:39 PM   #94
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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If he's trying so damn hard to protect people by ending the threat quickly, why does he fly Zod straight into a train station full of people?
Well, I don't think he does just that. I think he and Zod basically grapple it out until that's where they end up as they plummet to Earth amidst the ruins of the satellite. Superman uses the incident to gain the upper hand.

But notice...no one appears to die or be seriously injured, certainly not because of any choices on Superman's part. And this is the one time Superman gets the upper hand. It was a strategic move on his part...the high ground so to speak.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:43 PM   #95
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I'm sure they were but there's one major difference between Man of Steel and the Avengers.

First up, Joss Whedon never made a claim to ground the film in realism and repeatedly bash that fact over people's heads.

Secondly whilst the Avengers have surely had humanity's best interests at heart, the swoop in and save the day quality is a Superman thing. It's what I've loved him for. Not having that makes a difference to me.

Thirdly, Joss Whedon explores the loss of life and danger humanity's facing through the entire Captain America arc during the final battle. It addresses it without putting it under the rug from the heroes' perspective.

Here we get the poorly developed staff at the Daily Planet to play out this certain facet of Superman's character. Yeah. No. It's not enough for me.
In my opinion, it's unrealistic for Superman to constantly feel the need to swoop in and save civilians when he's busy dealing with an enraged monster like Zod. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He had to take down Zod as quick as possible, but he couldn't just go somewhere else and save civilians in danger because he had to keep his eye on Zod.


I understand what you're saying about the loss of life and all, but like I said, Superman had a specific job to do. He will stop and save you if he's not caught up in a brawl(like he did for the Soldier until Dev-Em knocked him away again), but if he's caught up, he can't just pause the fight to take care of someone else. We're not seeing this loss of life while they are brawling, so we are to assume the buildings have been evacuated. It's different from TA, where we actually saw people still in the buildings most of the time.

However, the other things you said about the threat not being reflected on, I do agree with. The Avengers did that well.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:45 PM   #96
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Well, at least when he went through the buildings Superman had the decency to fall on the empty corridors as we see him doing in one scene.
When Supes jumps in between the split-semi truck that showed Lex Corpse in the final battle, Supes pause's for a moment to look up at the buildings when the truck explodes, which led Zod to ambush him from the back. He opened himself up right there to stop and pause from the destruction of what it may have caused.

Superman is just so *****ing awesome. He was portrayed properly and had to Kill Zod from unleashing even further. He saved millions in the process after saving MANKIND. Though thousands perished, those people being targeted was the breaking point. I applaud this re-imagining and applaud Superman for acting in that circumstance. WELL DONE.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:47 PM   #97
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Well, I don't think he does just that. I think he and Zod basically grapple it out until that's where they end up as they plummet to Earth amidst the ruins of the satellite. Superman uses the incident to gain the upper hand.

But notice...no one appears to die or be seriously injured, certainly not because of any choices on Superman's part. And this is the one time Superman gets the upper hand. It was a strategic move on his part...the high ground so to speak.
I agree with that point of view but it was pretty callous nevertheless especially given the nature of his opponent.

However, the true problem regarding the damage/deaths issue is that the writers ignore its potential. Goyer acknowledges the collateral damage but didn't take advantage of the storytelling possible off the back of it.

I would've loved to see Zod figure out a little earlier that Superman had an Achilles heel. That would've made the final battle so much more engaging and emotionally resonating since you'd see two titans battling it out whilst the fate of the world literally rested in the balance.

A proper back and forth where neither specifically gains an upper hand but they both hit each other where it hurts. Emotionally and physically that is.

Consider it a lost opportunity for a much more engaging climax.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #98
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I would've loved to see Zod figure out a little earlier that Superman had an Achilles heel.
He did. It's apparent by the start of the final battle that Zod knows full well what the people of Earth mean to Superman.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:50 PM   #99
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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In my opinion, it's unrealistic for Superman to constantly feel the need to swoop in and save civilians when he's busy dealing with an enraged monster like Zod. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He had to take down Zod as quick as possible, but he couldn't just go somewhere else and save civilians in danger because he had to keep his eye on Zod.


I understand what you're saying about the loss of life and all, but like I said, Superman had a specific job to do. He will stop and save you if he's not caught up in a brawl(like he did for the Soldier until Dev-Em knocked him away again), but if he's caught up, he can't just pause the fight to take care of someone else. We're not seeing this loss of life while they are brawling, so we are to assume the buildings have been evacuated. It's different from TA, where we actually saw people still in the buildings most of the time.

However, the other things you said about the threat not being reflected on, I do agree with. The Avengers did that well.
Quick question: How do we know that's Dev-Em? I missed it.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:52 PM   #100
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Quick question: How do we know that's Dev-Em? I missed it.

I think it was Dev-Em, might have been Faora.

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