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Old 06-17-2013, 02:53 PM   #101
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I think it was Dev-Em, might have been Faora.
Sorry, I mean that big guy. How do we know the big dude is Dev-Em?

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:56 PM   #102
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Sorry, I mean that big guy. How do we know the big dude is Dev-Em?
I think I'm mixing my Kryptonian names up. Dev-Em was the guy from the prequel comic who was blonde. In that case, I don't know the tall Kryptonian's name.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:56 PM   #103
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I think I'm mixing my Kryptonian names up. Dev-Em was the guy from the prequel comic who was blonde. In that case, I don't know the tall Kryptonian's name.
Nam-EK?

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:57 PM   #104
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I think I'm mixing my Kryptonian names up. Dev-Em was the guy from the prequel comic who was blonde. In that case, I don't know the tall Kryptonian's name.
Ah, well I may have to get my hands on the prequel comic regardless.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:57 PM   #105
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Nam-EK?
Bingo!

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #106
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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In my opinion, it's unrealistic for Superman to constantly feel the need to swoop in and save civilians when he's busy dealing with an enraged monster like Zod. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. He had to take down Zod as quick as possible, but he couldn't just go somewhere else and save civilians in danger because he had to keep his eye on Zod.


I understand what you're saying about the loss of life and all, but like I said, Superman had a specific job to do. He will stop and save you if he's not caught up in a brawl(like he did for the Soldier until Dev-Em knocked him away again), but if he's caught up, he can't just pause the fight to take care of someone else. We're not seeing this loss of life while they are brawling, so we are to assume the buildings have been evacuated. It's different from TA, where we actually saw people still in the buildings most of the time.

However, the other things you said about the threat not being reflected on, I do agree with. The Avengers did that well.
Ultimately it boils down to striking a balance. As a fan am I expecting him to drop everything and save someone? Of course not. With the Zod fight it was harder since he had to dispatch him asap. I get it. That fight was fine except for the train station bit.

But with the Smallville battle I would've loved to see Goyer heighten the tension regarding Clark's morality being a weakness. It's mentioned and then casually ignored in favour of more punches.

I would've loved to see Clark go for the falling trooper, drop him to safety and then struggle to stop the helicopter from them crashing. He goes for it but gets stopped by the big guy and Faora. The knockout punch that was instead shown was just so...convenient.

I think that's basically it. A lot of the action felt convenient and contrived. And I get it, Goyer's got to write it out and then Snyder has to direct it into something entertaining. But that's the issue for me. It wasn't entertaining because it felt staged beyond what I'd expect to see.

That element of unpredictability, excitement and anxiety at Superman not being able to save lives or the attempt to do so truly costing him the fight wasn't there because it was all coordinated to stress the next big punch.

So when that's then added to the lack of super-saves, it's all a bit underwhelming and compounds the lack of Superman-ness. Sure, fans love the whole 'two superpower beings brawling!' but there's more to it than that for me. There should be more to it than that anyway.

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Old 06-17-2013, 02:58 PM   #107
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Ah, well I may have to get my hands on the prequel comic regardless.
Krumm just told me the big one's name is Nam-Ek. That is right because I remember someone on here commenting how his name is the same as the planet from DBZ.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:01 PM   #108
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Krumm just told me the big one's name is Nam-Ek. That is right because I remember someone on here commenting how his name is the same as the planet from DBZ.
Cool.

It's fun they have all these Kryptonians but they didn't bother to point them out -- unless I missed it.

Though, Jax-Ur was obvious.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:02 PM   #109
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He did. It's apparent by the start of the final battle that Zod knows full well what the people of Earth mean to Superman.
Then that's even more lax storytelling on the filmmakers' part given the information conveyed during that fight too.

Zod knows Superman cares for humanity. The filmmakers have explicitly stated that Kryptonians are bred to be something specific. Zod's meant to be the best warrior on Krypton or I'd assume so anyway. Add to that he confirms that he's now mastered his senses and openly mocks Clark for being trained on a farm.

By that logic Zod for all intents and purposes should be a better fighter than Clark regardless of the latter's potentially souped up strength levels due to increased exposure to Earth's yellow sun.

So then why the hell does the fight seem so one sided? Sure, there's probably more riding in Clark's favour if we go with the concept of belief over raw rage, but still, Zod should've known...he should've known to exploit that Achilles' heal. And he didn't?

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:23 PM   #110
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Ultimately it boils down to striking a balance. As a fan am I expecting him to drop everything and save someone? Of course not. With the Zod fight it was harder since he had to dispatch him asap. I get it. That fight was fine except for the train station bit.

But with the Smallville battle I would've loved to see Goyer heighten the tension regarding Clark's morality being a weakness. It's mentioned and then casually ignored in favour of more punches.

I would've loved to see Clark go for the falling trooper, drop him to safety and then struggle to stop the helicopter from them crashing. He goes for it but gets stopped by the big guy and Faora. The knockout punch that was instead shown was just so...convenient.

I think that's basically it. A lot of the action felt convenient and contrived. And I get it, Goyer's got to write it out and then Snyder has to direct it into something entertaining. But that's the issue for me. It wasn't entertaining because it felt staged beyond what I'd expect to see.

That element of unpredictability, excitement and anxiety at Superman not being able to save lives or the attempt to do so truly costing him the fight wasn't there because it was all coordinated to stress the next big punch.

So when that's then added to the lack of super-saves, it's all a bit underwhelming and compounds the lack of Superman-ness. Sure, fans love the whole 'two superpower beings brawling!' but there's more to it than that for me. There should be more to it than that anyway.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:25 PM   #111
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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Then that's even more lax storytelling on the filmmakers' part given the information conveyed during that fight too.

Zod knows Superman cares for humanity. The filmmakers have explicitly stated that Kryptonians are bred to be something specific. Zod's meant to be the best warrior on Krypton or I'd assume so anyway. Add to that he confirms that he's now mastered his senses and openly mocks Clark for being trained on a farm.

By that logic Zod for all intents and purposes should be a better fighter than Clark regardless of the latter's potentially souped up strength levels due to increased exposure to Earth's yellow sun.

So then why the hell does the fight seem so one sided? Sure, there's probably more riding in Clark's favour if we go with the concept of belief over raw rage, but still, Zod should've known...he should've known to exploit that Achilles' heal. And he didn't?
Hard for either character to do much of anything(in character) if they keep the pressure on each other.

I agree it would have probably destroyed any chance of the fight being seen of as repetitive and it was a missed opportunity, but it makes full sense in itself.

I notice you keep singling out goyer for creative decisions. How this works on forums always intrigues me. One day Bay is responsible for every story point, the next day it's Nolan the director the next it's some high profile producer the next it's the writer(s), the next it's Bryan Singer not having any punches...
I find it odd and pointless to even try.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:25 PM   #112
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

I can never tell whether that clap is sarcastic or not.

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I notice you keep singling out goyer for creative decisions. How this works on forums always intrigues me. One day Bay is responsible for every story point, the next day it's Nolan the director the next it's some high profile producer the next it's the writer(s), the next it's Bryan Singer not having any punches...
I find it odd and pointless to even try.
Eh, it's nothing intentional. As a writer myself I tend to blame the writers in films the most!

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:27 PM   #113
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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So when that's then added to the lack of super-saves, it's all a bit underwhelming and compounds the lack of Superman-ness. Sure, fans love the whole 'two superpower beings brawling!' but there's more to it than that for me. There should be more to it than that anyway.
Problem is, it happens. On more than one occasion.
And alot more than in many other cbms.

It becomes a matter of quantity at this point, an argument that can go on forever.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #114
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I guess maybe the problem regarding that is that there's no standout scene like the scenes in Donner's films and Singer's film.

The Oil Rig/Bus scenes felt ridiculously plastic. There was no 'whoa, that's Superman' feel to them, which is probably why they don't counterbalance the action sequences where the fly down and the save Lois/Random Army Guy scenes don't feel that great.

Concerning the 'whoa, that's Superman' feeling, the flying was a bit odd. Dunno if it was me but whilst I was really pumped to see him go, the decision to go handheld made the entire experience really really jarring. Maybe that's the asthetic they were going for, but damn, it was hard on the eyes.

The standout scene after three viewings for me and the one major moment where I was out of my seat and thinking 'Holy ****, that's Superman' was when he went bonkers on Zod at the farm. 'YOU THINK YOU CAN THREAT MY MOTHER?' No, sir. You're Superman. Get the **** out of here, Zod. Go.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #115
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

I swear sometimes after reading some of the posts here that I think people went and saw a completely different movie than I saw....or just didn't watch the movie period

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:34 PM   #116
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

That's perception and perspective for you. It's crazy and kooky.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:40 PM   #117
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This guy said everything I think needs to be said about the destruction in this movie. Especially as a fellow New Yorker, this guy especially gets why that last scene was so icky.

http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/201...pocalypse.html
Im a New Yorker. And Im still here in NYC. But that was just his experience. Plenty of New Yorkers came out of the theater feeling just fine and enjoyed the movie.

That dude doesnt speak for me.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:50 PM   #118
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Im a New Yorker. And Im still here in NYC. But that was just his experience. Plenty of New Yorkers came out of the theater feeling just fine and enjoyed the movie.

That dude doesnt speak for me.
I can't stand when people presume to tell others what they should be offended by. Plus that dude had to do a lot of mental gymnastics to get to his conclusion.

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Old 06-17-2013, 03:54 PM   #119
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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This guy said everything I think needs to be said about the destruction in this movie. Especially as a fellow New Yorker, this guy especially gets why that last scene was so icky.

http://bullyscomics.blogspot.com/201...pocalypse.html
I was actually more affected by the parallels in STID because of the terrorist angle and the use of explosives than I was by the alien battle of MOS. Yes, the similarities crossed my mind in MOS but STID affected me emotionally.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:04 PM   #120
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

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I guess maybe the problem regarding that is that there's no standout scene like the scenes in Donner's films and Singer's film.

The Oil Rig/Bus scenes felt ridiculously plastic. There was no 'whoa, that's Superman' feel to them, which is probably why they don't counterbalance the action sequences where the fly down and the save Lois/Random Army Guy scenes don't feel that great.
.
I was talking about the in fight saves actually. I personally love those other saves. Lot's of scale with the rig, lot's of struggle.

And with the bus, it was just so interesting. I mean it was fully meant to be a clark exposing himself type of scene. Saving his bullies was a nice touch.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:05 PM   #121
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I can't stand when people presume to tell others what they should be offended by. Plus that dude had to do a lot of mental gymnastics to get to his conclusion.
The way I feel about alot of movie reviews. I mean how could they possible know if there is no emotion felt in the tornado scene or not...
judging art just rubs me the wrong way.

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:13 PM   #122
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Default Re: Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

I just didn't get that Superman was that bothered by the death toll.
In Superman 2 when Ursa and Non grab the bus and Reeve is shouting 'No! Don't do it! The people', you see the concern, you 'feel' the concern and that was BUS, let alone a BUILDING!

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:37 PM   #123
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Ok, having watched the movie again, here's my take on the claimed disregard Superman has for his surroundings:

Smallville:
It starts out with an enraged Superman reacting to a threat towards his mother. A very human reaction, where it appears that Superman is not overly concerned about what they may crash into. I'll give the critics that one. However, as I said, a very human reaction.

As Zod is rescued, the next threat is Faora and the big dude (forget his name). They are walking towards each other, and Superman is telling people to "Get inside. It's not safe!"
The coming fight isn't started by Superman though. It's started by the military, opening fire on the three (who are still on the street, so they're basically opening fire on a small town).
Actually the first thing we see Supes do in this fight, is rescue a pilot, as Faora is targetting the second plane (after the big dude rams the first one). Superman rams Faora just as she is about to hit the plane, thereby saving the pilot.

They crash into iHop and Superman stands up and immediately looks around at the people there, only to be knocked down by Faora.
When they both go at Supes, he's actually trying to get away, but is being pulled back. He then grabs Faora and tries to take her up in the air, but again is pulled down by the big dude. After using his heat vision to get out from underneath them, the military fires again.
The big dude throws a van at a chopper and the pilot falls out. Superman catches him with a "Are you OK?" only to ambushed immediately by the big dude and knocked to the ground.

Now while our hero is busy with the big dude, Faora takes out some soldiers and is moving in on Hardy. Supes lifts the big dude up in the air and knocks him in to the trains. Thereby getting him away from the buildings and into an area where there seem to be no people around. That looks very deliberate to me.
He then rescues Hardy just as Faora is about to "reward" him. Faora states that "For every human you save, we will kill a million more", which in my mind actually underlines the importance on focussing on the big picture and not individuals.
A train comes flying in, and knocks Superman into a building, and a missile is launched at Faora. This is three (3) times the military has fired at this little town. The fight is over.

The town is a mess, but 95 % of the destruction was done by the military and the Kryptonians. Superman hit the gas station and you could argue that he's responsible for the iHop too. The rest is not by his hand. He performed three direct saves in that fight, but it seems that they don't count to some people, dunno why...? Plus he saves Lois just before this whole thing.
He then rushes back to check on his mother (who I guess he also saved).

Metropolis / Earth:
The World Engine is released and must be stopped before it destroys us all. Therefore the focus now HAS to be on stopping the threat. This is common sense. There can be no time wasted saving individuals, as even more people will die while he does that.

After having used all his energy doing "his part" on the other side of the planet (illustrated by the shot of him reaching for the sun, which I loved), he rushes back to Metropolis and saves the plane carrying his ship, just as Zod is about to destroy it.
Zod's ship has to go down, and everyone knows it. If the plane goes down, the plan fails. Superman does his duty and saves the crew on the plane so that they still have a fighting chance.

Lois is saved yet again (as it should be i guess) and all that remains now, is Zod!
Now Zod really starts out by saying "I have nothing left to live for. My purpose in life is gone. And I'm gonna make you pay!". He initiates the fight and all hell breaks loose. He tells Superman that he will take the humans he loves so much from him, one by one.
Zod rams them into the (empty) office building and Zod cuts it in half with his heat vision. After Zod sheds his armor, Superman takes the fight to the sky, where the flying punches occur. It's Zod who brings the fight back down to the buildings, and it's Zod who throws Superman through countless buildings in a phase where our hero is in serious trouble.

They end up in space, where Zod throws a sattelite at Supes and then rams him again, heading back towards earth. As I see it, Superman doesn't get the upper hand before they are just about to hit the building. After the impact Supes has Zod in a headlock and can finally contain him. The rest is history.

The point I'm trying to make is: Superman did make saves when the opportunity was there. But when the threat got too big, there was not time for individuals, the threat had to be stopped.
Superman did pay attention to his surroundings, but everytime he turned his attention away from his opponent, they were all over him.
Superman did not cause the destruction of Smallville and Metropolis. The military and the Kryptonians did.

Now I can understand that many people would have liked to have seen a couple of epic saves in Metropolis, I would too.
But I kinda like the fact that this movie presented Superman with tough choices, where the perfect solution just wasn't there. Where no matter what he does, it comes with a cost.
He still ended up doing the right things, where he saved the most people (IMO).

Whew, that went on to be a much longer post than I intended. I fully understand those of you who didn't make it all the way through

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Old 06-17-2013, 04:40 PM   #124
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I just didn't get that Superman was that bothered by the death toll.
In Superman 2 when Ursa and Non grab the bus and Reeve is shouting 'No! Don't do it! The people', you see the concern, you 'feel' the concern and that was BUS, let alone a BUILDING!
We'll in that scene Ursa and Non were directly threatening the people. Supes saw that and tried to plead. In MOS none of the kryptonians threatened the humans directly. Most of the destruction came from those gravity machines.

Faora was going to attack Melons character but then Superman knocked her out of the way.

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Old 06-17-2013, 05:20 PM   #125
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Ok, having watched the movie again, here's my take on the claimed disregard Superman has for his surroundings:

Smallville:
It starts out with an enraged Superman reacting to a threat towards his mother. A very human reaction, where it appears that Superman is not overly concerned about what they may crash into. I'll give the critics that one. However, as I said, a very human reaction.

As Zod is rescued, the next threat is Faora and the big dude (forget his name). They are walking towards each other, and Superman is telling people to "Get inside. It's not safe!"
The coming fight isn't started by Superman though. It's started by the military, opening fire on the three (who are still on the street, so they're basically opening fire on a small town).
Actually the first thing we see Supes do in this fight, is rescue a pilot, as Faora is targetting the second plane (after the big dude rams the first one). Superman rams Faora just as she is about to hit the plane, thereby saving the pilot.

They crash into iHop and Superman stands up and immediately looks around at the people there, only to be knocked down by Faora.
When they both go at Supes, he's actually trying to get away, but is being pulled back. He then grabs Faora and tries to take her up in the air, but again is pulled down by the big dude. After using his heat vision to get out from underneath them, the military fires again.
The big dude throws a van at a chopper and the pilot falls out. Superman catches him with a "Are you OK?" only to ambushed immediately by the big dude and knocked to the ground.

Now while our hero is busy with the big dude, Faora takes out some soldiers and is moving in on Hardy. Supes lifts the big dude up in the air and knocks him in to the trains. Thereby getting him away from the buildings and into an area where there seem to be no people around. That looks very deliberate to me.
He then rescues Hardy just as Faora is about to "reward" him. Faora states that "For every human you save, we will kill a million more", which in my mind actually underlines the importance on focussing on the big picture and not individuals.
A train comes flying in, and knocks Superman into a building, and a missile is launched at Faora. This is three (3) times the military has fired at this little town. The fight is over.

The town is a mess, but 95 % of the destruction was done by the military and the Kryptonians. Superman hit the gas station and you could argue that he's responsible for the iHop too. The rest is not by his hand. He performed three direct saves in that fight, but it seems that they don't count to some people, dunno why...? Plus he saves Lois just before this whole thing.
He then rushes back to check on his mother (who I guess he also saved).

Metropolis / Earth:
The World Engine is released and must be stopped before it destroys us all. Therefore the focus now HAS to be on stopping the threat. This is common sense. There can be no time wasted saving individuals, as even more people will die while he does that.

After having used all his energy doing "his part" on the other side of the planet (illustrated by the shot of him reaching for the sun, which I loved), he rushes back to Metropolis and saves the plane carrying his ship, just as Zod is about to destroy it.
Zod's ship has to go down, and everyone knows it. If the plane goes down, the plan fails. Superman does his duty and saves the crew on the plane so that they still have a fighting chance.

Lois is saved yet again (as it should be i guess) and all that remains now, is Zod!
Now Zod really starts out by saying "I have nothing left to live for. My purpose in life is gone. And I'm gonna make you pay!". He initiates the fight and all hell breaks loose. He tells Superman that he will take the humans he loves so much from him, one by one.
Zod rams them into the (empty) office building and Zod cuts it in half with his heat vision. After Zod sheds his armor, Superman takes the fight to the sky, where the flying punches occur. It's Zod who brings the fight back down to the buildings, and it's Zod who throws Superman through countless buildings in a phase where our hero is in serious trouble.

They end up in space, where Zod throws a sattelite at Supes and then rams him again, heading back towards earth. As I see it, Superman doesn't get the upper hand before they are just about to hit the building. After the impact Supes has Zod in a headlock and can finally contain him. The rest is history.

The point I'm trying to make is: Superman did make saves when the opportunity was there. But when the threat got too big, there was not time for individuals, the threat had to be stopped.
Superman did pay attention to his surroundings, but everytime he turned his attention away from his opponent, they were all over him.
Superman did not cause the destruction of Smallville and Metropolis. The military and the Kryptonians did.

Now I can understand that many people would have liked to have seen a couple of epic saves in Metropolis, I would too.
But I kinda like the fact that this movie presented Superman with tough choices, where the perfect solution just wasn't there. Where no matter what he does, it comes with a cost.
He still ended up doing the right things, where he saved the most people (IMO).

Whew, that went on to be a much longer post than I intended. I fully understand those of you who didn't make it all the way through
Wohoo finally somebody gets it. Hopefully this will quieten down all the people saying but Superman didn't care about the people. Or they should have shown him saving people in Metropolis. (which he did when he stops Zod in the train station. I counted 5 people there in has way)

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