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View Poll Results: "S" plastic shield vs broken neck.
"S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies. 7 6.93%
Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives. 94 93.07%
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:46 AM   #51
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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And that was only AFTER they killed billions of people. And Superman was not just starting out in his career either. There was a lot more to that story than just snapping a neck to save a family. It was a defining moment for his character and they spent a lot of time dealing with the repercussions. This film did neither.
yeah superman should've waited until zod an co killed billions of people. then he would have a reason to kill zod


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Old 06-19-2013, 10:47 AM   #52
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I respect your opinion, tbh if I wrote the movie I would probably have gone a different way. I would go a different way for lots of movies, especially cbms. That doesn't devaule the films though. You think it would have been a "better" (superman)story with a more traditional approach(this is pretty darn traditional btw), but just as many people think otherwise. I'm looking for the why's though. Beyond, "I wanted the storyline...a less brutal ending to a comic book movie about superman".
Ok great.
You could say the same about the death of superman arc too, that's not how you go about criticizing that story imo.
Thank you. Most of the complaints I've seen about this film from fans AND critics seems to be a bunch of people saying, "I wanted THIS but they did THIS instead." And fine, were there things I would have done differently with this movie? Sure. There are things I would have done differently with TDK and The Avengers too. Doesn't mean anyone else would like my choices any better.

Thousands of writers have taken on Superman over the years and each one has put his or her own spin on the character. And while MOS must be held to a higher standard than a simply 4-issue comic book story arc, it's still one of many interpretations. It's both very faithful to the source material and yet fresh and new enough that it doesn't feel like a stale retread.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:20 AM   #53
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Not sure when I called you purists, in fact I went on to state that some people are acting like purists and some are explaining themselves beyond holding up source material that argues against their point better than I could ever hope to.

I respect your opinion, tbh if I wrote the movie I would probably have gone a different way. I would go a different way for lots of movies, especially cbms. That doesn't devaule the films though. You think it would have been a "better" (superman)story with a more traditional approach(this is pretty darn traditional btw), but just as many people think otherwise. I'm looking for the why's though. Beyond, "I wanted the storyline...a less brutal ending to a comic book movie about superman".
Ok great.
You could say the same about the death of superman arc too, that's not how you go about criticizing that story imo.


Before I address this, could you please tell me if you are being serious? Honest question.
For every Yin there is a Yang... Apples and Pears etc...

We can't all be the same, that's rather boring. So I appreciate many posters will have opposing views to mine. I personally think the killing of Zod in such a brutal manner isn't appropriate for Superman. Life's too short to analyse every person Superman has possibly or possibly not killed in his history. He has never really in the mainstream been seen to be so brutal as we saw at the end of MoS. It didn't sit well with me, and obviously many other going with the responses on here.

I think there could have been a much more creative way to end the story. I don't believe what we saw at the end adds to the story, or creates questions about morality or his character. It just didn't seem very 'Superman' to me... Superman doesn't snap people's neck in my eyes.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:29 AM   #54
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

I love Mark Waid. Maybe my favorite writer there. But people keep bringing him up and I find it lame.

If Mark Waids many issues with the film, alot of which are understandable and also debatable. It's just all comes out sounding so disingenuous and not just because he wrote a different take on the character so his objectivity in criticism is worth questioning. Ignoring that Waids superman is a vegan in his origin...

The issue of the life saving element not being present enough is a matter of opinion. The issue of reckless abandon is an even weaker opinion. But this issue of Disaster Porn is bs. And what I see as trying to justify his dislike by bringing something up he thinks can't be refuted. How disturbed is he by the lives lost, does he think a superman story can't have a large element of disaster or something?

I'm also confused about his thoughts on Superman's no kill rule, his approach to it in his muddled at best.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:31 AM   #55
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

I love Mark Waid but I still haven't forgiven him for The Kingdom. His ideas aren't always good ones.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:34 AM   #56
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Thank you. Most of the complaints I've seen about this film from fans AND critics seems to be a bunch of people saying, "I wanted THIS but they did THIS instead." And fine, were there things I would have done differently with this movie? Sure. There are things I would have done differently with TDK and The Avengers too. Doesn't mean anyone else would like my choices any better.

Thousands of writers have taken on Superman over the years and each one has put his or her own spin on the character. And while MOS must be held to a higher standard than a simply 4-issue comic book story arc, it's still one of many interpretations. It's both very faithful to the source material and yet fresh and new enough that it doesn't feel like a stale retread.

Ironically, that's pretty much my argument for Hulk 2003, which I admit has bigger pacing issues.


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I love Mark Waid but I still haven't forgiven him for The Kingdom. His ideas aren't always good ones.

That's how I feel about Alan Moore.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:43 AM   #57
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I love Mark Waid. Maybe my favorite writer there. But people keep bringing him up and I find it lame.

If Mark Waids many issues with the film, alot of which are understandable and also debatable. It's just all comes out sounding so disingenuous and not just because he wrote a different take on the character so his objectivity in criticism is worth questioning. Ignoring that Waids superman is a vegan in his origin...

The issue of the life saving element not being present enough is a matter of opinion. The issue of reckless abandon is an even weaker opinion. But this issue of Disaster Porn is bs. And what I see as trying to justify his dislike by bringing something up he thinks can't be refuted. How disturbed is he by the lives lost, does he think a superman story can't have a large element of disaster or something?

I'm also confused about his thoughts on Superman's no kill rule, his approach to it in his muddled at best.
I think they call it that b/c it shows us gratuitous destruction in nauseating detail but then never follows up with the emotional aftermath. Additionally not seeing Superman do a lot of rescuing in those scenarios or even just a look of his face at the devastation left people feeling cold. The complaint isn't that the destruction shouldn't have happened or that he should've prevented it but that there should be some sort of visible reaction to it a real sense of devastation and lost that simply is overlooked in the film.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:44 AM   #58
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Originally Posted by Max Newlander View Post
For every Yin there is a Yang... Apples and Pears etc...

We can't all be the same, that's rather boring. So I appreciate many posters will have opposing views to mine. I personally think the killing of Zod in such a brutal manner isn't appropriate for Superman. Life's too short to analyse every person Superman has possibly or possibly not killed in his history. He has never really in the mainstream been seen to be so brutal as we saw at the end of MoS. It didn't sit well with me, and obviously many other going with the responses on here.

I think there could have been a much more creative way to end the story. I don't believe what we saw at the end adds to the story, or creates questions about morality or his character. It just didn't seem very 'Superman' to me... Superman doesn't snap people's neck in my eyes.
Fair point and I wish more people would phrase their disdain(sp) in such a way.

Anyways on to your issue. The matter of brutality is definitely worth discussing and breaking down. One could just as easily argue that Doomsday has the most brutal death in all of comicdom. One could argue that they would rather have their neck snapped by superman than falling to their icy deaths...Kryptonite doesn't seem like the most peaceful way to go...and so on and so fourth.
(and let's not get into the TDK trilogy).

I think what's jarring is how powerfully it was directed. There could have been more subtlety(a cut away) there could have even been a different posing. To me I think it was pretty lax. If they tried to communicate a death via punch...that wouldn't be to pretty if you really think about.

And then there is "The Elite" story line. Superman cuts pieces of a mans brain out. This is real brutality that harkens back to stone age psychiatry. Not the most moral approach but some times Superman goes there. I love that story cause Joe Kelly gave superman a back door to killing but the result was possibly even uglier.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:06 PM   #59
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I think they call it that b/c it shows us gratuitous destruction in nauseating detail but then never follows up with the emotional aftermath. Additionally not seeing Superman do a lot of rescuing in those scenarios or even just a look of his face at the devastation left people feeling cold. The complaint isn't that the destruction shouldn't have happened or that he should've prevented it but that there should be some sort of visible reaction to it a real sense of devastation and lost that simply is overlooked in the film.
I'm inclined to agree with the rhetoric, but I think there is a level of hyperbole with such statements. I don't remember seeing one dead bodies for example. The can't be said for even waids work.

I'd hate to point to avengers again but there was far more character glee taken during that battle. I personally think this more serious and day I say respectful treatment of the doom is it's downfall with the detractors. People want fun. Yes there is a brief news cast about the event after, used even more so for more up beat exposition, but I personally think the choice to not pull a TDK and end both avengers and MoS on nothing but joy is a good one, only something isn't clicking here.

I do find it funny that perry white ends up doing the pedestrian saving at a pivotal moment in this movie. Considering he has no powers...I think that's neat.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:09 PM   #60
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

I think it's also quite possible that those buildings we saw falling over during the final battle were completely evacuated. Once Zod's ship showed up and started wreaking havoc, my guess is, anyone who survived that got the hell out of there.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:10 PM   #61
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

As for the destruction, this was a brand new superman. He wasn't going to do all the "supermany" stuff we expected right out the gate because this is a guy who literally just learned how to fly.

The actions Mark Waid talked about he would have liked to see from superman do during his battle with zod, like multi-tasking and saving people while still fighting off zod would have been the actions of a veteran superman not a just born one.

I'm sure we'll see that in the sequel. This version is the rough and tumble one. Think Batman in begins he wasn't polished right off the bat (no pun).

This was not the avengers team who were all almost veterans by the time they were fighting in New York.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:16 PM   #62
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I think it's also quite possible that those buildings we saw falling over during the final battle were completely evacuated. Once Zod's ship showed up and started wreaking havoc, my guess is, anyone who survived that got the hell out of there.
It's not impossible to believe that quite a few of those buildings would have been evacuated. Although the people at the DP seem to really take their sweet time from that time that ship shows up to them actually hightailing it out of there.

Or maybe it was a Saturday when Zod attacked and there were less people around.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:20 PM   #63
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

The fact that he wasnt completely confident in his fighting abilities is even MORE reason for him to find a way to move the fight outside the city.

And NONE of the Avengers were veterans of that kind of battle/warfare. Widow clearly states that the situation was "nothing we were ever trained for". The Hulk had NEVER been a part of a coordinated battle with teammates. ALL of them, except maybe Thor, were in over their heads. That was the point.

Frankly I'm okay with this new Superman (one who kills). It reflects the world we've been living in the last 12 years. Perpetual war, war crimes condoned and tacitly approved by large swaths of the population, a loss of privacy through constant surveillance, et cetera et cetera.

The Batman and Superman we have are the heroes we deserve. Thanks Chris!!

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:25 PM   #64
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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The fact that he wasnt completely confident in his fighting abilities is even MORE reason for him to find a way to move the fight outside the city.

And NONE of the Avengers were veterans of that kind of battle/warfare. Widow clearly states that the situation was "nothing we were ever trained for". The Hulk had NEVER been a part of a coordinated battle with teammates. ALL of them, except maybe Thor, were in over their heads. That was the point.
Zod says to Superman before they are about to fight that he will kill humans because he sees how much Superman values them. So Superman should fly away and hopes Zod chases him? What if Zod doesn't and starts decimating thousands of innocent lives while Superman waits to be followed? Maybe Zod does go after Superman, after 10 minutes of killing as many humans as he can. Superman cannot risk that. He chose to take out the threat immediately especially after hearing him say something like that.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:28 PM   #65
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Zod says to Superman before they are about to fight that he will kill humans because he sees how much Superman values them. So Superman should fly away and hopes Zod chases him? What if Zod doesn't and starts decimating thousands of innocent lives while Superman waits to be followed? Maybe Zod does go after Superman, after 10 minutes of killing as many humans as he can. Superman cannot risk that. He chose to take out the threat immediately especially after hearing him say something like that.
Once they started fighting Zod, wasn't letting Supes out of his sight. It was pretty obvious. He was in blind rage because his Kryptonian "purpose" had all but evaporated, his fellow cohorts shipped back to the Phantom Zone, and the terra machines destroyed. That's also why he threatened the lives of every human, to hit Superman at his core ..... but he knew there's no way he could even get to doing so without taking out Supes first.

They take the fight up to outerspace and yet somehow Superman can't keep him out of Metropolis at that point? Uhhh ya, no.


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Old 06-19-2013, 12:28 PM   #66
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

Its all made up man. The writers couldve done ANYTHING with the material. If Superman "had no choice", that's because the writers made sure he had no choice. You act as if this is part of some historical record and not fiction.

Spot on, Rock. The battle couldve literally gone anywhere (the moon? Antarctica? The Indian Ocean? Euro Disney?) at that point. Going back to Metropolis was a choice that the writers made because it was convenient. Period.

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At the risk of being totally offensive...there's a quote from Ghandi about Christianity that can be reappropriated for this.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:30 PM   #67
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

even though they didn't show Superman going around rescuing people in Metropolis, they didn't show people falling to their deaths or getting crushed and Superman failing to save them, either.

and besides, Superman really didn't get a chance to go around and save people. he was preoccupied with stopping the superpowered threat, as he's the only one who could stop Zod. The humans had to fend for themselves, or else have the military and police help them.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:32 PM   #68
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Its all made up man. The writers couldve done ANYTHING with the material. If Superman "had no choice", that's because the writers made sure he had no choice. You act as if this is part of some historical record and not fiction.

Spot on, Rock. The battle couldve literally gone anywhere (the moon? Antarctica? The Indian Ocean? Euro Disney?) at that point. Going back to Metropolis was a choice that the writers made because it was convenient. Period.
Precisely. They wrote Superman into a corner with many situations I considered patently absurd or mindlessly gratuitous.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:34 PM   #69
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Once they started fighting Zod, wasn't letting Supes out of his sight. It was pretty obvious. He was in blind rage because his Kryptonian "purpose" had all but evaporated, his fellow cohorts shipped back to the Phantom Zone, and the terra machines destroyed. That's also why he threatened the lives of every human, to hit Superman at his core ..... but he knew there's no way he could even get to doing so without taking out Supes first.

They take the fight up to outspace and yet somehow Superman can't keep him out of Metropolis at that point? Uhhh ya, no.
Superman and Zod indirectly ended up there and in other places. It wasn't like Superman was directing where the fight was heading. He was engaged in a vicious fight. He wasn't able to direct where the fight would go.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:36 PM   #70
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Superman and Zod indirectly ended up there and in other places. It wasn't like Superman was directing where the fight was heading. He was engaged in a vicious fight. He wasn't able to direct where the fight would go.
Oh c'mon ..... he can punch Zod around like a ragdoll mid-air. He can canonball people in the movie. He's the one who had been exposed to the Earth's yellow sun the longest. Yet he can't figure out a way to move the fight away from the public?

Again, Zod wasn't going anywhere. He was so completely fixated on Supes and their brawl that Superman could've taken it somewhere else.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:37 PM   #71
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Oh c'mon ..... he can punch Zod around like a ragdoll mid-air. He can canonball people in the movie. He's the one who had been exposed to the Earth's yellow sun the longest. Yet he can't figure out a way to move the fight away from the public?
And Zod was punching back. Sounds easier said than done.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:38 PM   #72
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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And Zod was punching back. Sounds easier said than done.
How did they end up back in Metropolis after being in space anyways?

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #73
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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And then there is "The Elite" story line. Superman cuts pieces of a mans brain out. This is real brutality that harkens back to stone age psychiatry. Not the most moral approach but some times Superman goes there. I love that story cause Joe Kelly gave superman a back door to killing but the result was possibly even uglier.
He didn't cut out anything from Manchester Black's brain - he only pretended to in order to scare Black and show him what he was capable of. From memory, I think in the end he gave him nothing more than a 'focused concussion' which temporarily nullified Black's power.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:40 PM   #74
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Again, Zod wasn't going anywhere. He was so completely fixated on Supes and their brawl that Superman could've taken it somewhere else.
That's not a fact, that is your belief of what could have happened. My belief is that is too risky to fly away to try to draw Zod when Zod could stay, if even for 5 minutes, and kill hundreds of innocent lives.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:41 PM   #75
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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How did they end up back in Metropolis after being in space anyways?
They landed there after fighting some more?

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