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View Poll Results: "S" plastic shield vs broken neck.
"S" shield, cool new power designed to kill powerless enemies. 7 6.93%
Broken neck to save a family and millions of future innocent lives. 94 93.07%
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:43 PM   #76
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Once they started fighting Zod, wasn't letting Supes out of his sight. It was pretty obvious. He was in blind rage because his Kryptonian "purpose" had all but evaporated, his fellow cohorts shipped back to the Phantom Zone, and the terra machines destroyed. That's also why he threatened the lives of every human, to hit Superman at his core ..... but he knew there's no way he could even get to doing so without taking out Supes first.

They take the fight up to outerspace and yet somehow Superman can't keep him out of Metropolis at that point? Uhhh ya, no.
This wasn't like the Zod in Superman II, who's only purpose was to rule Earth and who was intent on following Superman to the fortress so that he could bow to him. This Zod - the MOS one - had lost his purpose once the codex was gone, so his sole remaining desire was to kill as many humans as possible. He stated this. Superman had no other option than to confront him head on. Trying to move the battle away or have Zod pursue him would have been fruitless; Zod would simply have used that window of time to kill a few more hundred civilians.

It was plainly obvious to me that Superman's hands were full simple trying to handle Zod, never mind trying to implement a strategy or move the fight elsewhere.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #77
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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That's not a fact, that is your belief of what could have happened. My belief is that is too risky to fly away to try to draw Zod when Zod could stay, if even for 5 minutes, and kill hundreds of innocent lives.
Oh I get it. Somehow Zod would be able to carry out killing humans while an active revenge brawl is taking place.

Yet, Superman would be unable rescue people while an active revenge brawl is taking place. Oh the irony.

Regardless, it still does not discount the idea that something could've been done to get Zod away from the city ..... but with Goyer's absurd writing somehow MIRACUOUSLY they end up back in Metropolis even AFTER fighting in space.

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Old 06-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #78
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I love Mark Waid but I still haven't forgiven him for The Kingdom. His ideas aren't always good ones.
Oh that was a train wreck, Kingdom Come is my favourite graphic novel ever but the Kingdom was awful. Thy Kingdom Come which Waid had nothing to do with was a great sequel.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:05 PM   #79
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

I'm just going to leave this here. Might enlighten the conversation a bit.
I would point out that, the upload had a weird edit going on so the vid loops half way though, but it get's to the meat of the issue non the less.

also notice how little comments express any such outrage.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


Also notice the space leap and where it ends up afterwards, I suppose goyer is just an idea stealer, figures the hack.
Also notice what it takes for superman to finally realize it's Killing time, another hack move on the part of goyer.

It's hardly canon but, then again what is these days, and does it even matter.

edit, woah, watched the entire full scene(it get's even crazier at the start).

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:07 PM   #80
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Also notice the space leap and where it ends up afterwards, I suppose goyer is just an idea stealer, figures the hack.

It's hardly canon but, then again what is these days, and does it even matter.
I know... I've seen this sort of thing in all sorts of Supes shows and comics and episodes etc. Never heard any complaints about it until MOS.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:09 PM   #81
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I know... I've seen this sort of thing in all sorts of Supes shows and comics and episodes etc. Never heard any complaints about it until MOS.
any ideas why?

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:12 PM   #82
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

No ideas.

I've also never heard anyone complain about Supes killing Zod in Superman II. I've heard complaints about him beating up that guy in the bar but never about him killing Zod. I guess maybe its just because MOS "feels" darker aesthetically that these things are being interpreted more darkly... I dunno.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:17 PM   #83
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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No ideas.

I've also never heard anyone complain about Supes killing Zod in Superman II. I've heard complaints about him beating up that guy in the bar but never about him killing Zod. I guess maybe its just because MOS "feels" darker aesthetically that these things are being interpreted more darkly... I dunno.
Yup. Plus Zod's death in MOS has much more tension and is more dramatic and brutal. In Superman 2, it is played out humorously.

It's funny because once Zod was depowered in Superman 2 all Superman had to do was hand him over to the police. Instead, he decides to crush his hand and toss him. What a swell guy.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:17 PM   #84
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

And as for Mark Waid.

SPOILERS FOR KINGDOM COME worth picking up cause it's a hell of a book.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Kingdom come has him(waid) destroying the entire state of kansas. It's not caused by superman but its death none the less a whole hell of a lot more than MOS, as starting point.

Then later he has a nuclear strike sent out on a field full of countless heroes, it goes off and a hand full survive




Then he has superman enraged by everyone's bad choices including his own, decide it's killing time and he heads over to the un and start to bring the place down, only to be talked out of it by arguably supernatural forces.


Now, there is a point to all of this, perhaps a message against it even. But to act like MoS is some sort of great disservice to the/his character is pretty lame imo. How many lives did superman not save in this story? How many lives did superman decide to take in this story....etc.

Well there was a mourning scene at the end so all is well. And it is an "elseworlds" after all.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:19 PM   #85
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

@Phantasm.
I just think of it as Selective Outrage to be honest.
This sort of thing sometimes happens when people don't like a film.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:24 PM   #86
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Oh that was a train wreck, Kingdom Come is my favourite graphic novel ever but the Kingdom was awful. Thy Kingdom Come which Waid had nothing to do with was a great sequel.
Yeah, same here. I love, LOVE Kingdom Come. It's absolutely perfect and perhaps someday, if we're really lucky, we'll see it turned into a movie (once Cavill is in his mid 40s or so). But The Kingdom made me want to ram my head into a wall. EVERY aspect of that story sucked, other than Batman's son. He was kind of cool. But The Kingdom was the equivalent of The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Never read Thy Kingdom Come. I may have to check that out.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:27 PM   #87
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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I've also never heard anyone complain about Supes killing Zod in Superman II. I've heard complaints about him beating up that guy in the bar but never about him killing Zod. I guess maybe its just because MOS "feels" darker aesthetically that these things are being interpreted more darkly... I dunno.
Did you never go into the 'Should this Superman kill?' Thread before the movie came out?

People have expressed their dislike for that ending plenty.

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Old 06-19-2013, 01:30 PM   #88
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Did you never go into the 'Should this Superman kill?' Thread before the movie came out?

People have expressed their dislike for that ending plenty.
I may have. I honestly can't remember, but the thread sounds familiar.

I like the MOS version more, obviously, because it didn't play up the killing as some sort of humor moment where Supes killed Zod for practically no reason whatsoever. In MOS they made it clear Supes didn't want to kill him, and that he only did it because he felt he had no choice.

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Old 06-19-2013, 03:05 PM   #89
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Yeah, same here. I love, LOVE Kingdom Come. It's absolutely perfect and perhaps someday, if we're really lucky, we'll see it turned into a movie (once Cavill is in his mid 40s or so). But The Kingdom made me want to ram my head into a wall. EVERY aspect of that story sucked, other than Batman's son. He was kind of cool. But The Kingdom was the equivalent of The Dark Knight Strikes Again.

Never read Thy Kingdom Come. I may have to check that out.
That's the dream for me to see this story adapted someday.

Yeah agree with that although I think Strikes Again might be worse.

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Old 06-19-2013, 05:08 PM   #90
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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And as for Mark Waid.

SPOILERS FOR KINGDOM COME worth picking up cause it's a hell of a book.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Kingdom come has him(waid) destroying the entire state of kansas. It's not caused by superman but its death none the less a whole hell of a lot more than MOS, as starting point.

Then later he has a nuclear strike sent out on a field full of countless heroes, it goes off and a hand full survive




Then he has superman enraged by everyone's bad choices including his own, decide it's killing time and he heads over to the un and start to bring the place down, only to be talked out of it by arguably supernatural forces.


Now, there is a point to all of this, perhaps a message against it even. But to act like MoS is some sort of great disservice to the/his character is pretty lame imo. How many lives did superman not save in this story? How many lives did superman decide to take in this story....etc.

Well there was a mourning scene at the end so all is well. And it is an "elseworlds" after all.
You'll get nowhere defending MOS by criticizing Kingdom Come.

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Old 06-19-2013, 05:36 PM   #91
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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You'll get nowhere defending MOS by criticizing Kingdom Come.
I was addressing Mark Waid's hint of hypocrisy.
mos by extension I guess.

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Old 06-19-2013, 05:38 PM   #92
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

I am fine with Superman killing Zod in the film. It came down to 1 life of a criminal versus 3 innocent lives. He clearly couldn't stop Zod so he had to do the next best thing for everyone.

And I would be fine if it happened more in the comics since Batman and co. let their villains go to die another day they end up killing more people in the process.

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Old 06-19-2013, 05:44 PM   #93
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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You'll get nowhere defending MOS by criticizing Kingdom Come.
Yep...KC has its own problems...don't need to heap'em onto MOS.

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Old 06-19-2013, 05:49 PM   #94
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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And I would be fine if it happened more in the comics since Batman and co. let their villains go to die another day they end up killing more people in the process.
It actually makes less sense for Batman to do it, since he's so strident about that one rule. Really the rule goes deep into Bats psychology - he's much less likely just to drop it for the sake of being pragmatic.

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Old 06-19-2013, 07:22 PM   #95
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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even though they didn't show Superman going around rescuing people in Metropolis, they didn't show people falling to their deaths or getting crushed and Superman failing to save them, either.

and besides, Superman really didn't get a chance to go around and save people. he was preoccupied with stopping the superpowered threat, as he's the only one who could stop Zod. The humans had to fend for themselves, or else have the military and police help them.
Here's the thing. I can only speak for myself but I'd think seeing that kind of destruction you'd have some sort of reaction. Particularly there was time for such a reaction before he fights Zod. Yet we never get a sense of I don't know disgust or being upset about the MASSIVE amounts of destruction. I see posters constantly say "well Superman couldn't do anything" or "he's new to the job". Ok that's fine and true but how about a little respect instead of smooching at ground zero and cracking a joke I'm not saying re-write the film but interspersing some scenes with him surveying the destruction, being upset about it etc. We spend the majority of the film establishing that he just wants to help and doesn't want to see people suffering yet when he sees more destruction than he's ever seen before what does he do...crack a joke and kiss the girl. That just seemed out of place.

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Old 06-19-2013, 07:30 PM   #96
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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It actually makes less sense for Batman to do it, since he's so strident about that one rule. Really the rule goes deep into Bats psychology - he's much less likely just to drop it for the sake of being pragmatic.
Compare how that was established in Batman Begins. He's young, directionless, returning home to see his parents killer walk free. He contemplates first degree murder, then right before he can follow through the guy is killed right in front of his eyes...he's in shock. Then the conversation with Rachel where she slaps him not once but twice whaaaat! She tells him his parents would be ashamed of him. This leads to the confrontation with Falcone. The "lesson" he gives Bruce on fear is what sparks the need for his heroic journey. NOW THAT IS HOW YOU ESTABLISH A CHARACTER AND HIS UNIQUE POINT OF VIEW. We see why Batman doesn't carry a gun and go around killing people. It's extremely well done. It more fully establishes his motivation and morality than any other version live action or comic that I've ever seen. That's well thought out and executed story telling.

Now imagine if we just saw Bruce kill someone, react emotionally and swear to never do it again? Same effect?

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Old 06-19-2013, 07:32 PM   #97
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:41 PM   #98
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

My opinion on the matter:

The more I think of the film, the more problems I have with it and the more indulgent I think I was with my initial review... but as for the death of Zod, I have no problem with how it happened. It was a difficult situation, only solvable through the making of a difficult decision. It made sense, and it beat introducing a mega-convenient way of defeating Zod that catered to Superman's need of both defeating him AND keeping his own hands clean. Superman's policy of never killing would only take him so far in the real world.

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Old 06-19-2013, 09:15 PM   #99
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

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Compare how that was established in Batman Begins. He's young, directionless, returning home to see his parents killer walk free. He contemplates first degree murder, then right before he can follow through the guy is killed right in front of his eyes...he's in shock. Then the conversation with Rachel where she slaps him not once but twice whaaaat! She tells him his parents would be ashamed of him. This leads to the confrontation with Falcone. The "lesson" he gives Bruce on fear is what sparks the need for his heroic journey. NOW THAT IS HOW YOU ESTABLISH A CHARACTER AND HIS UNIQUE POINT OF VIEW. We see why Batman doesn't carry a gun and go around killing people. It's extremely well done. It more fully establishes his motivation and morality than any other version live action or comic that I've ever seen. That's well thought out and executed story telling.

Now imagine if we just saw Bruce kill someone, react emotionally and swear to never do it again? Same effect?
yes.
For one very very simple reason.
The act of killing and the effect it can have on someone. Go kill someone tmr, see how you feel about it on sunday, and 4 years later.

I will go as far as to say Goyer put more cues in his begins script to this theme, but when it comes down to which film does the GA walk away from ready to believe that the character has thoughts towards death, I would say it's a toss up, but probably MOS because the death sticks with you more. Now every time people see him fight impossible odds, they will be as thoughtful of this as the character himself. How much power is too much, is he loved or respected by the people he protects and inspires.... I think this is a marvel. But that's me.

The first kill is a big deal in literature. I grew up watching Xena

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Old 06-19-2013, 09:18 PM   #100
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Default Re: How Superman Resolved the Issue of Zod *MEGA SPOILER* - Part 1

To preface, I was okay with how the confrontation with Zod ended in MoS. Granted, I didn't grow up reading the comics (only watching the Reeve films and maybe bits and pieces of one of the animated series) - so maybe that makes my opinion less valid in some eyes, but whatever.

I wanted to throw something out there (and my apologies if I'm bringing up a theory that's already been discussed, I largely stayed away from the boards until I saw the movie last Saturday and a lot of the threads move so quickly it's hard to keep up). This has been percolating in my head since I saw the movie - and I hope this a good place to put this (and that it makes sense)

I know this idea might make the ending even more controversial than it already is but I'm wondering if Superman's scream of anguish after killing Zod wasn't necessarily because he killed Zod (because he killed the last of his people) - but because in order to stop Zod, he had to sacrifice that one family to save the rest of the planet? If I remember correctly Zod's gaze is (as he and Superman are looking at the family) moving to the right to try and get to the family with his heat vision. Superman is struggling against him trying to force his head left. In order to snap his neck, he twists Zod's head to the RIGHT which would take the heat vision right through where that family is/was - add to that that we don't see any hint of the family after. If this is the case, to me, this would, perhaps, only solidify his desire to have a no kill rule?

I don't know... agree, disagree, other thoughts? Was I the only one that thought this was a possibility of what happened? Like I said, I fully acknowledge that I probably need to see the movie again (oh the torture )

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