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Old 07-02-2015, 10:29 PM   #1
HarryOsborn
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Default Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

So if you've been following the news on AoU, you know Joss has been very vocal about the fact the studio was heavily involved with the production of this movie- passing the blame of many people's disappointment onto the shoulders of Marvel Studios. Now it seems like every time I pop online Joss has something negative to say, and frankly I'm sick of it and he's handling the situation absolutely horribly.

As the director of a film you are like the captain of the ship, and you float to shore in glory or you stand by as it sinks. The way Whedon is bashing Marvel is horribly unprofessional and just something you don't see directors doing- directors with actual critical and box office bombs I might add.

Sam Raimi stood by Spider-Man 3 when questioned about 3.1/or a directors cut saying the version in theaters is always his directors cut. He didn't admit it was a bit of a mess for 6 or 7 years! Joel Schumacher didn't apologize for Batman and Robin about a decade. John Faverau didn't complain about Marvel until after Iron Man 2's theatrical run, and Marc Webb- the poster child of studio interference- stood by Avi Arad and Amy Pascall's Amazing Spider-Man 2! Averages age of Ultron was a well received movie that wasn't quite as good as the first in many people's eyes, and Joss has been bashing it since it was released, maybe even a little before.

Sure other creative artists have had their issues with Marvel. Edward Norton was upset he wasn't given final cut privileges of The Incredible Hulk, but he simmered down and promoted the Avengers until he was recast. Edgar Wright and Kenneth Branagh both had their issues, but they did the mature thing and left when they felt they needed to. Joss on the other hand is acting like a spoiled brat. He's had 2 solid films, he's not at a level where he can be this condescending. I wouldn't be surprised if he has trouble finding work in the future because of his childish reaction. Not to mention a lot of the problems with the film came from him and his handling of the characters, not even the script. John Campea put it best, as the director you're given what you're given and told to make the best of it, if you can't then it's your fault above anyone else's.

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Old 07-02-2015, 10:32 PM   #2
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I think the whole experience of directing and writing AoU burnt him out.

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Old 07-02-2015, 10:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Whedon did come off as a bit of a little b**** to me

However, I havent heard him saying anything and it all died down so I dont really care. It's not like he's going around everyday complaining about it

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Old 07-03-2015, 02:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I think What He said wasn't said with rage or hatred towards marvel. We should know better that these kind of frictions happen everytime during production process.He said multiple times he made the movie his own, he was just tired at the end of the run.

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Old 07-03-2015, 03:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

People love to make a big deal out of nothing. I haven't followed every word he's said since the movie came out, so feel free to fill us all in, but this interview seemed to sum it up well.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/adambvary/jo...rvel-adventure

He sounds like he could have been frustrated, and in a EW interview taken while he was editing the film, down to the last minute, he admitted he was stressed. Also keep in kind some people just have a way of talking that doesnt come off well in print, their sarcasm and what not. Listening to his Avengers commentary I can imagine some people took his words with a different inflection than they'd actually hear. But the movie is his. He was in the same position as Sam Raimi, he earned the creative freedom to do as he pleased but the powers that be didn't grant it to him.

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Old 07-03-2015, 03:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

He hasn't said anything in a while, and what he did wasn't exactly said angrily, he simply seemed tired and patiently talked about some of the things that frustrated him a little while making Avengers 2.

As for the names you mentioned as examples, i think Marc Webb would probably be regarded better among the fan community if he had stated how the studio interference ruined what he wanted to make or something like that. Marvel Studios however has too much of a fan following.

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Old 07-03-2015, 04:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

It depends on industry 'clout', how much you have, and how much you can afford to say before you talk yourself out of future work and you damage the credit you have accumulated.

Wheedon has delivered back-to-back $1 billion+ films for the studio. He's guarrenteed work in the future for other studio's as he's now a 'bankable' name and he can do any 'personal' projects he likes and Marvel keep the money in the bank and make more $$$$ to keep the show on the road. Everyone's happy.

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Old 07-03-2015, 07:38 AM   #8
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

After The Avengers i thought he would have the same freedom as a filmmaker as Nolan and Bay when it comes to pursuing his oun original large scale projects, but after this controversy, i have a feeling studios will be less interested in investing in someone who can end up badmouthing them. Not to mention that this burnout might make him uninterested in working on multiple projects for a while, when he ends up wanting to make something of his oun with a big budget, it might already be too late and many years after his back-to-back avengers success.

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Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
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Old 07-03-2015, 07:40 AM   #9
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Just because he doesn't say things angrily doesn't mean anything.

You have a problem about someone, say it to them. And I bet Whedon did.

But if you do confront or talk to the person that you have a problem with someone, then that's it. It's done.

Don't go whining to your friends, or in this case the media. That's just being weak to me.

And even they excuse of "Well they asked and I answered" is a weak cop out too for people who are just lame and looking for an excuse to badmouth or "vent"

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Old 07-03-2015, 09:42 AM   #10
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I just want an extended cut of the movie. Not deleted scenes, I want the stuff they cut for "TIME"

I'd complain too if they told him he could do one thing and change what they meant as they went along

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Old 07-03-2015, 09:49 AM   #11
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I think Whedon could be great if he directed a solo superhero film. DC should keep their eyes on him...

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Old 07-03-2015, 10:26 AM   #12
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Whedon should focus on original stand alone ideas

Why would DC be different than MArvel? Building a shared universe requires a lot of collaboration and a common tone. He'll run into the same problem that he ran into Marvel.

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Old 07-03-2015, 12:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Whedon feels slighted. That's all, and he's vocal and obviously the success of the first one left an impact on him. Don't blame him. Is he being a bit much, handling it poorly, and as one said being a *****? Yeah, he is. Since AoU took backseat to JW this year, and since objectively AoU wasn't as good as some of Marvel's other best films, avengers hype has worn off, FOR NOW, and he doesn't want to appear to be the one responsible for it, since he feels he wasn't. He wasn't, especially since there were other big movies this year, and maybe he feels he may be the one responsible in the public's eyes. Whedon is a human being, and as a result, defense mechanisms kick in (while being on a world state).. he has emotions, he's handling it the same way I would be. Not great, but he's only human and is definitely burned out by Marvel, and is a little bit bitter towards the cooperate side of it.

Fiege is a fan of the material of course, but at the end of the day.. to quote the ever lovely Dragonheart "one must make a living". Fiege is a businessman, first and foremost and Marvel Studios is a business..Whedon saw this side of it, and probably is irritated. It is what it is in my opinion.

Whedon is talented and his formula worked well for Avengers 1, but at the end of the day I don't think it seemed to work for AoU because of Ultron. Ultron is Ultron, and there were preconceived opinions of how he should be (they are valid)
Whedon either
1. Can't write a good threatening villain (he's a professional filmmaker, so this can't be the case)
2. Chooses not to write a threatening villain for the sake of the heroes. I think this is the case.
The character Ultron just doesn't really fit into Whedon's style of film making, and that's okay cause he made the most of it

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Old 07-03-2015, 12:38 PM   #14
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackman View Post
Just because he doesn't say things angrily doesn't mean anything.

You have a problem about someone, say it to them. And I bet Whedon did.

But if you do confront or talk to the person that you have a problem with someone, then that's it. It's done.

Don't go whining to your friends, or in this case the media. That's just being weak to me.

And even they excuse of "Well they asked and I answered" is a weak cop out too for people who are just lame and looking for an excuse to badmouth or "vent"
this is what it is, and he's a public figure.

He's still a human being, with a personality structure which means like any human being, he's subject to normal forms of coping with stressors, it just manifests through the media because of his career and fame. I don't agree with his behavior either, but I get it.
Let's give the guy a break. Regardless of how famous you are, it hurts to hear people saying mean things about you. F

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Old 07-03-2015, 12:51 PM   #15
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I don't think Whedon said anything that outrageous. I think he was just burnt out and if he were speaking about this a year from now he'd be probably saying different things. But I'm bewildered by the backlash on AOU. No matter how you feel about the final product - it was an incredible achievement in and of itself and I'm grateful for Joss for coming back for round 2. He's passionate. He put his heart and soul into this and it took a lot of spinning plates just to make a film like this actually happen. Joss is all right in my book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Whedon feels slighted. That's all, and he's vocal and obviously the success of the first one left an impact on him. Don't blame him. Is he being a bit much, handling it poorly, and as one said being a *****? Yeah, he is. Since AoU took backseat to JW this year, and since objectively AoU wasn't as good as some of Marvel's other best films, avengers hype has worn off, FOR NOW, and he doesn't want to appear to be the one responsible for it, since he feels he wasn't. He wasn't, especially since there were other big movies this year, and maybe he feels he may be the one responsible in the public's eyes. Whedon is a human being, and as a result, defense mechanisms kick in (while being on a world state).. he has emotions, he's handling it the same way I would be. Not great, but he's only human and is definitely burned out by Marvel, and is a little bit bitter towards the cooperate side of it.

Fiege is a fan of the material of course, but at the end of the day.. to quote the ever lovely Dragonheart "one must make a living". Fiege is a businessman, first and foremost and Marvel Studios is a business..Whedon saw this side of it, and probably is irritated. It is what it is in my opinion.

Whedon is talented and his formula worked well for Avengers 1, but at the end of the day I don't think it seemed to work for AoU because of Ultron. Ultron is Ultron, and there were preconceived opinions of how he should be (they are valid)
Whedon either
1. Can't write a good threatening villain (he's a professional filmmaker, so this can't be the case)
2. Chooses not to write a threatening villain for the sake of the heroes. I think this is the case.
The character Ultron just doesn't really fit into Whedon's style of film making, and that's okay cause he made the most of it
First off, I love Dragonheart!

Second, yeah Ultron is all on Joss.

http://www.themarysue.com/joss-whedo...ron-interview/

He explains pretty clearly that this is his version of Ultron. I dug it. It was different than what I expected but I appreciated what he did with the character. I also understand some of the complaints about him as well.

But to me the beautiful thing about Ultron is that he always comes back. There's no way Marvel just one-shotted one of the Avengers biggest villains. Especially someone as easy to bring back as Ultron. He's a virtual consciousness. He's everywhere and can get into everything. Maybe Vision stored his essence in the Mind Stone ala Adam Warlock? Maybe Ultron escaped through a backdoor in his own firewall? Maybe Zola and Ultron will run into each other on the information superhighway who the heck knows. But I would be shocked if that is truly the last we've ever seen of him. Marvel would be idiots to do that.

And when Ultron does come back he won't be a child anymore. He will grow. He will evolve. And when that happens I imagine a much more mature but vengeful, bitter, frightening version of Ultron. So Joss gets to make his Ultron and another director will get to give us Ultron 2.0.

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Old 07-03-2015, 01:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

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Originally Posted by Blackman View Post
Whedon should focus on original stand alone ideas

Why would DC be different than MArvel? Building a shared universe requires a lot of collaboration and a common tone. He'll run into the same problem that he ran into Marvel.
To me, and I say, to me, before anyone 'chops me down' in a Marvel v DC attack (this is not), it appears to me, from films released in this genre previously, WB / DC have a more 'let the director's vision be told' attitude than Marvel Studio's. I appreciate ALL studio exec's are going to have 'final say', it's their money after all, but WB at least do appear to have a shade more leiniency towards allowing more scope on the director's desired end vision.

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Old 07-03-2015, 01:36 PM   #17
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To me, and I say, to me, before anyone 'chops me down' in a Marvel v DC attack (this is not), it appears to me, from films released in this genre previously, WB / DC have a more 'let the director's vision be told' attitude than Marvel Studio's. I appreciate ALL studio exec's are going to have 'final say', it's their money after all, but WB at least do appear to have a shade more leiniency towards allowing more scope on the director's desired end vision.
I believe this may be true when they lack confidence in the director's vision for a film or if they feel it diverts too much from the big picture. Maybe it's playing it safe at times but they haven't allowed a stinker to sully their film slate. They clearly let guys like the Russos, Shane Black and James Gunn do their thing. You don't hear a peep out of those directors complaining about Marvel interference and whether you liked their films or not - they break the mold. Guys like Alan Taylor were unproven and maybe they shouldn't have made the hire to begin with but they were right to step in and take over. (Just look at Terminator: Genisys) I think the most egregious case of interference was Iron Man 2 but that was in the early days of the studio. I think they've continued to learn since then and the last two years have been remarkable. CA:TWS, GOTG and the Netflix Daredevil series are without a doubt home runs for Marvel.

It will be interesting to see how DC fares now that they're attempting a new brand of universe building of their own. I actually dislike the term "DCCU" at the moment because up till now there hasn't been one. Let's see how this all comes together first before we grant them that achievement. Nolan without a doubt had free regin but he is in a class of his own as a director and his films exist outside the so called "DCCU". But then you have a case like Martin Campbell's Green Lantern. It would seem Man of Steel was the movie Snyder wanted to make and we saw how that turned out. I'm very cynical about BvS at this stage but David Ayer's Suicide Squad looks extremely promising.

I think in the next 4-5 years we can look back and decide which approach worked best in the grand scheme of things.

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Old 07-03-2015, 06:02 PM   #18
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It depends on industry 'clout', how much you have, and how much you can afford to say before you talk yourself out of future work and you damage the credit you have accumulated.

Wheedon has delivered back-to-back $1 billion+ films for the studio. He's guarrenteed work in the future for other studio's as he's now a 'bankable' name and he can do any 'personal' projects he likes and Marvel keep the money in the bank and make more $$$$ to keep the show on the road. Everyone's happy.
The thing is who's getting the industry clout, Whedon or Marvel? If Whedon comes out with a new film next year that earns huge numbers, he's going to be a certified bankable name. Right now though the only thing that's proven is that the Avengers are certified and bankable. Someone like James Cameron or Michael Bay who consistently delivers high box office returns over a diverse library of titles is someone who's bankable.

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Old 07-03-2015, 06:19 PM   #19
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Whedon feels slighted. That's all, and he's vocal and obviously the success of the first one left an impact on him. Don't blame him. Is he being a bit much, handling it poorly, and as one said being a *****? Yeah, he is. Since AoU took backseat to JW this year, and since objectively AoU wasn't as good as some of Marvel's other best films, avengers hype has worn off, FOR NOW, and he doesn't want to appear to be the one responsible for it, since he feels he wasn't. He wasn't, especially since there were other big movies this year, and maybe he feels he may be the one responsible in the public's eyes. Whedon is a human being, and as a result, defense mechanisms kick in (while being on a world state).. he has emotions, he's handling it the same way I would be. Not great, but he's only human and is definitely burned out by Marvel, and is a little bit bitter towards the cooperate side of it.

Fiege is a fan of the material of course, but at the end of the day.. to quote the ever lovely Dragonheart "one must make a living". Fiege is a businessman, first and foremost and Marvel Studios is a business..Whedon saw this side of it, and probably is irritated. It is what it is in my opinion.

Whedon is talented and his formula worked well for Avengers 1, but at the end of the day I don't think it seemed to work for AoU because of Ultron. Ultron is Ultron, and there were preconceived opinions of how he should be (they are valid)
Whedon either
1. Can't write a good threatening villain (he's a professional filmmaker, so this can't be the case)
2. Chooses not to write a threatening villain for the sake of the heroes. I think this is the case.
The character Ultron just doesn't really fit into Whedon's style of film making, and that's okay cause he made the most of it
Writing has almost nothing to do with the final product- shocking, but true. You can have a shoddy, questionable script, like Kick-Ass or Star Trek 2009. But if the characters are directed well and the shots are interesting and there's tangible emotion in the scenes then the movie will work.

Good example, watch Batman Forever- at least the opening sequence. Sans the "I'll get drive through" line, everything in the script could have been done seriously. Listen to Tommy Lee Jone's lines and think about Aaron Eckart's version saying them and it works.

Ultron was depicted too much as some goofy guy- and while James Spader did a great job with that, had he been directed to read his lines in a more menacing more cold and calculating way it could have worked better.

My biggest issue was that this film missed a huge opportunity Joss or at least someone at Marvel should have seen. This movie could really have serious ramifications and could neatly tie-up Tony's arc- whilst starting a new different road for him. Tony becomes Iron Man as sort of penance for his sins as a weapons maker, but he learns the consequences of his Iron Man armor getting into the wrong hands and has to save himself and his loved ones in Iron Man. In the Avengers and Iron Man 3 Tony learns there's a world of threats out there far more complex than the science he understands, and decides he wants a simple life. He creates Ultron in the Avengers 2 as a means to quit being Iron Man, thus returning to making weapons- and he should have had to pay for that emotionally. I firmly believe Pepper or Rhodey should have died- leaving Tony scarred and (possibly) wanted to once again become more involved thus setting up civil war and his new role in the MCU. Instead Banner seems to take more heat than Tony, despite his role being the most critical in the creation of Ultron.

There was none of Hank Pym's emotional struggle transported into Tony and that was a huge missed opportunity that stopped this film from being great for me.

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Old 07-03-2015, 06:23 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ragnaroknroll View Post
I don't think Whedon said anything that outrageous. I think he was just burnt out and if he were speaking about this a year from now he'd be probably saying different things. But I'm bewildered by the backlash on AOU. No matter how you feel about the final product - it was an incredible achievement in and of itself and I'm grateful for Joss for coming back for round 2. He's passionate. He put his heart and soul into this and it took a lot of spinning plates just to make a film like this actually happen. Joss is all right in my book.



First off, I love Dragonheart!

Second, yeah Ultron is all on Joss.

http://www.themarysue.com/joss-whedo...ron-interview/

He explains pretty clearly that this is his version of Ultron. I dug it. It was different than what I expected but I appreciated what he did with the character. I also understand some of the complaints about him as well.

But to me the beautiful thing about Ultron is that he always comes back. There's no way Marvel just one-shotted one of the Avengers biggest villains. Especially someone as easy to bring back as Ultron. He's a virtual consciousness. He's everywhere and can get into everything. Maybe Vision stored his essence in the Mind Stone ala Adam Warlock? Maybe Ultron escaped through a backdoor in his own firewall? Maybe Zola and Ultron will run into each other on the information superhighway who the heck knows. But I would be shocked if that is truly the last we've ever seen of him. Marvel would be idiots to do that.

And when Ultron does come back he won't be a child anymore. He will grow. He will evolve. And when that happens I imagine a much more mature but vengeful, bitter, frightening version of Ultron. So Joss gets to make his Ultron and another director will get to give us Ultron 2.0.
Hate to tripple post but we're not going to see Ultron or Loki as the villains again- there's too many Avengers antagonists to retread ground like that. What's Ultron 2 going to be titled- Avengers: Era of Ultron? He might come back in a minor role, but this was his big day in the sun pal. Kang, the masters of evil, Korvac, Norman Osborn and HAMMER, the Thunderbolts, The Dark Avengers, etc are all going to make it up there at some point and those names alone will span decades of film. Ultron isn't coming back for at least 20 year- mark my words.

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Old 07-03-2015, 09:26 PM   #21
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

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Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
this is what it is, and he's a public figure.

He's still a human being, with a personality structure which means like any human being, he's subject to normal forms of coping with stressors, it just manifests through the media because of his career and fame. I don't agree with his behavior either, but I get it.
Let's give the guy a break. Regardless of how famous you are, it hurts to hear people saying mean things about you. F
As a public figure he should be more tough.

Of course it sucks when you hear people saying mean things about you or you don't get your way.

But that doesnt mean you go out and complain about it a lot. At least to me, you shouldnt.

I feel for Whedon. But the best thing wouldve been to just leave, keep his mouth shut, move on, and make them miss him when he comes out with another hit project.

He didnt say anything really bad, but I still think his behavior was weak.
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Originally Posted by Mandon Knight View Post
To me, and I say, to me, before anyone 'chops me down' in a Marvel v DC attack (this is not), it appears to me, from films released in this genre previously, WB / DC have a more 'let the director's vision be told' attitude than Marvel Studio's. I appreciate ALL studio exec's are going to have 'final say', it's their money after all, but WB at least do appear to have a shade more leiniency towards allowing more scope on the director's desired end vision.
Don't worry I dont think your posts are Marvel v DC

WB/DC Let the director's vision be told when they werent building or maintaining a shared universe.
I really dont think DC/WB is going to let their films be all over the place tonally and aesthetically if they take place in the same universe.

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Old 07-03-2015, 09:48 PM   #22
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

It's clear that Whedon had issues with Marvel during the production of AoU. But when was the last time you heard a director speak negatively during the actual press tour for the movie? I was surprised by this.

Disagreements do happen and James Gunn has spoken about disagreeing with Feige on one creative decision, but he makes it clear it didn't harm his working relationship with Marvel.

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Originally Posted by HarryOsborn View Post

My biggest issue was that this film missed a huge opportunity Joss or at least someone at Marvel should have seen.
I am puzzled how so many strange creative decisions got made for AoU, and I would love to know if anyone objected at any stage. We know that Marvel wanted to keep QS alive, but I wonder what they really thought (not their reaction to test screenings) of other stories that have been questioned like 'jokey' Ultron, Thor's cave scene, Hawkeye's family, Brutasha etc.

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Old 07-03-2015, 11:20 PM   #23
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryOsborn View Post
Hate to tripple post but we're not going to see Ultron or Loki as the villains again- there's too many Avengers antagonists to retread ground like that. What's Ultron 2 going to be titled- Avengers: Era of Ultron? He might come back in a minor role, but this was his big day in the sun pal. Kang, the masters of evil, Korvac, Norman Osborn and HAMMER, the Thunderbolts, The Dark Avengers, etc are all going to make it up there at some point and those names alone will span decades of film. Ultron isn't coming back for at least 20 year- mark my words.
Well when you put it like that...

... still holding out hope though. Loki has already featured in three films. Characters like the Joker, Lex Luthor etc. keep coming back again and again. Why can't Ultron?

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Old 07-03-2015, 11:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

I'd put my money on Ultron returning before the Dark Avengers are ever added to the MCU. They did make it a point to take out every single drone... but that doesn't mean there weren't drones anywhere else.

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Old 07-04-2015, 02:40 PM   #25
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Default Re: Anyone else fed up with Whedon's complaining?

Joss Whedon didnt complain about squat. He has always been candid about the behind the scenes negotiations and sacrifices with producers. During his work in Buffy he always said very similar things about the fights and negotiations with the network or bosses while he was still working with the same people for next season. It never felt malicious, mostly because he also has always been very sincere about his own mistakes and shortcomings and because he has always admited that you need to keep the people with the money happy without selling your soul.

The same time he was saying all this, he was saying he hoped to keep working with Marvel cause he loved these guys. This is nothing new coming from him. Listen to his Buffy audio commentaies. Its just so unusual for a director to be this candid taht it seems more than it really is.

And believe me, he has complained about things before, sometimes, in my view, rightly so, sometimes not so rightly and not very profesionally. But this, in my opinion, knowing his public persona track, aint one of them. This is just honesty without malice, wich is refreshing.

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