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Old 06-26-2013, 09:57 AM   #76
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Lawyers are mercenaries at heart: you pay their bills, and they will temporarily adopt whatever position you want them to.

I may have to eat my own words though, about the US Supreme Court being about politics rather than legal arguments, when I look at the breakdown of the Prop 8 decision.
No, actually Ted has spoken out quite a bit on this. There is a large number of Republicans now speaking out, strong voices like Olson and Margaret Hoover. Olson was the main spokesperson in California when they were fighting there and Boies was the main spokesperson on this decision in Washington.

Hoover will have quite a bit to say on this on her blog I'm sure in a few hours.

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Old 06-26-2013, 09:57 AM   #77
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Well, you can't remove a Supreme Court justice, so no point in wasting energy on that.
oh im aware, but he can step down... be it his own decision or health. I can wait...

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:00 AM   #78
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Lawyers are mercenaries at heart: you pay their bills, and they will temporarily adopt whatever position you want them to.

I may have to eat my own words though, about the US Supreme Court being about politics rather than legal arguments, when I look at the breakdown of the Prop 8 decision.
yeah, the Prop 8 ruling was really bizzare by those who decided to strike it down, including Scalia himself.. which really doesn't make sense to me. Not sure how he can find Prop 8 dissmissable, but voted for DOMA to stand. I'll have to read it all tonight

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:06 AM   #79
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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I might take some time to read the Prop 8 opinion today; it is fascinating.
Here ya go....http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions...2-144_8ok0.pdf

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:10 AM   #80
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Thanks!

I am no lawyer and not an American (only an undergraduate degree in Canadian law) but I really want to look at the legal reasoning in both the majority and dissent. I wonder what implications this decision has for citizen referenda in general, not just in the gay rights circle.

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:15 AM   #81
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Isn't he considered the "swing judge" though? When I say "conservative" I am thinking of the other four who are stubbornly out there on the far right.
He's firmly conservative. A lot of his views tend to be more on the libertarian side hence why you see him oppose things like Obamacare, Section V of the Civil Rights Act, DOMA, etc.

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:34 AM   #82
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He's firmly conservative. A lot of his views tend to be more on the libertarian side hence why you see him oppose things like Obamacare, Section V of the Civil Rights Act, DOMA, etc.
In other words, Kennedy is a rare breed of "true conservative" then, which are scarcely to be found in rightwing political parties as of late.

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Old 06-26-2013, 11:45 AM   #83
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Prop 8 is also dead, SCOTUS as predicted dissmissed it. Marriages to resume in California


this is a major step forward for gay rights, just not the giant leap we needed.

Scalia should also be removed from court... he apparently said in his dissent that DOMA "has no prejudicial basis therefore should be left to stand"

that ideology needs to go away... especially if you can't tell what's prejudice and what's not.

imo SCOTUS should be role models... and i don't believe role models should be worry about they're reputation and saving their butts from scrutiny. They should simply be worried about doing what's right. And I'm not sold that they are
Well, I guess if we all thought alike, there wouldn't be a need for a Supreme Court now would there? Many agree with his dissent, they have as much right to that belief being heard as you do to your dissent of their belief. We can disagree, but doesn't mean that it does not have a right to be heard. I will fight for the opposing sides right to be heard as much as I will fight for my right to be heard. When one side no longer has that right, we have lost a freedom that is a cornerstone of this country.

I believe that what is right, wins in the end. The journey to that end may be a tough one, as it was for blacks and women in this country, and both are still fighting for those rights...but I believe that we have the greatest system of government in the world, and though we disagree to the point of blows, in the end the right will win, and I mean "right" as in "correct"...does not always mean the "right" as in conservative. I am a conservative, I have always been a conservative in many areas of my life, but I still believe in anyone's right to get married and live their lives as they believe as long as it is within our laws. If our laws need to be changed then we go through the process we hear ALL SIDES, and we move from there. That is what happened today, it still works. : )

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Old 06-26-2013, 11:47 AM   #84
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Well, I guess if we all thought alike, there wouldn't be a need for a Supreme Court now would there? Many agree with his dissent, they have as much right to that belief being heard as you do to your dissent of their belief. We can disagree, but doesn't mean that it does not have a right to be heard. I will fight for the opposing sides right to be heard as much as I will fight for my right to be heard. When one side no longer has that right, we have lost a freedom that is a cornerstone of this country.
well good for that. And people can believe what they wish. However... I believe Scalia's dissent is completely ignorant and wrong. And I'd have a few choice words to say to those who agreed with his.

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Old 06-26-2013, 11:51 AM   #85
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well good for that. And people can believe what they wish. However... I believe Scalia's dissent is completely ignorant and wrong. And I'd have a few choice words to say to those who agreed with his.
Do you believe that they have the right to reply? Because as soon as their right to reply is taken away, your right is gone as well....

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Old 06-26-2013, 11:58 AM   #86
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Do you believe that they have the right to reply? Because as soon as their right to reply is taken away, your right is gone as well....
of course they have the right to reply ( never said squat nor implied that by the way ) I'm just speaking of Scalia's mentality.. which is prejudice, and outdated. And imo has no place for the highest court in the nation. It's impossible to be completely Biased, but I feel he's one of the least biased out there

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Old 06-26-2013, 12:29 PM   #87
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

I'm pleased with this decision but I'm still not pleased with the court.

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Old 06-26-2013, 12:35 PM   #88
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

Yeah. Today's decision is a big step forward, but there's many more left.

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Old 06-26-2013, 12:43 PM   #89
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I'm pleased with this decision but I'm still not pleased with the court.
Agrees

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Old 06-26-2013, 01:43 PM   #90
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Agrees
This isn't the thread for this but the voting rights act gutting infuriated me. I hope I'm going to be allowed to vote in the next election. They might make up a rule all black women have to make out with the poll worker before they are allowed to vote. I'll be **** out of luck.

Anyway, I have to admit it would have been nice if "all" the Justices agreed that two people should be allowed to enter into a marriage contract regardless of gender because it's no one else's ****ing business. Instead we had people ruling based on their own personal religious beliefs and not based on what America is all about. I'm disgusted by Donald Trump being allowed to trade in his wives for younger wives when he gets bored but you don't hear me wanting SCOTUS to rule that he shouldn't be allowed to enter into his marriage contracts.

That embarrassment to my state John Boehner cried in some statement about marriage being between a man and a woman and his tanning bed. It's funny how conservatives forget to mention that marriage has not always been between one man and one woman. They keep peddling that lie, hell most of them probably have a nice little piece of ass on the side.

On behalf of all the intelligent people in Ohio, I'd like to apologize for John crybaby Boehner's existence.

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Old 06-26-2013, 01:47 PM   #91
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

Uh, are we allowed to turn down public support? Just askin'.

Dimon Joins Goldman Sachs Praising Court on Gay Marriage
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...-marriage.html

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Old 06-26-2013, 01:58 PM   #92
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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This isn't the thread for this but the voting rights act gutting infuriated me. I hope I'm going to be allowed to vote in the next election. They might make up a rule all black women have to make out with the poll worker before they are allowed to vote. I'll be **** out of luck.

Anyway, I have to admit it would have been nice if "all" the Justices agreed that two people should be allowed to enter into a marriage contract regardless of gender because it's no one else's ****ing business. Instead we had people ruling based on their own personal religious beliefs and not based on what America is all about. I'm disgusted by Donald Trump being allowed to trade in his wives for younger wives when he gets bored but you don't hear me wanting SCOTUS to rule that he shouldn't be allowed to enter into his marriage contracts.

That embarrassment to my state John Boehner cried in some statement about marriage being between a man and a woman and his tanning bed. It's funny how conservatives forget to mention that marriage has not always been between one man and one woman. They keep peddling that lie, hell most of them probably have a nice little piece of ass on the side.

On behalf of all the intelligent people in Ohio, I'd like to apologize for John crybaby Boehner's existence.
as one ohioan to another... AMEN! preach it!!! No Boehner needs to go away as well...

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:11 PM   #93
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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This isn't the thread for this but the voting rights act gutting infuriated me. I hope I'm going to be allowed to vote in the next election. They might make up a rule all black women have to make out with the poll worker before they are allowed to vote. I'll be **** out of luck.

Anyway, I have to admit it would have been nice if "all" the Justices agreed that two people should be allowed to enter into a marriage contract regardless of gender because it's no one else's ****ing business. Instead we had people ruling based on their own personal religious beliefs and not based on what America is all about. I'm disgusted by Donald Trump being allowed to trade in his wives for younger wives when he gets bored but you don't hear me wanting SCOTUS to rule that he shouldn't be allowed to enter into his marriage contracts.

That embarrassment to my state John Boehner cried in some statement about marriage being between a man and a woman and his tanning bed. It's funny how conservatives forget to mention that marriage has not always been between one man and one woman. They keep peddling that lie, hell most of them probably have a nice little piece of ass on the side.

On behalf of all the intelligent people in Ohio, I'd like to apologize for John crybaby Boehner's existence.
I usually don't comment in here, but I wanted to address this, because I've argued conservatives about this point.

Devout Christian Conservatives (particularly protestants) believe marriage was sanctioned by God. Because of this any other form of marriage than what the Bible discusses is illegitimate and isn't actually marriage. So other religions and cultures that don't meet their "idea" of what marriage is isn't actually a marriage in their eyes. To them there is only one kind of marriage and the rest is not in line with God. This is why the Conservatives can keep peddling that lie. Its a ridiculous way of looking at marriage and completely close minded and ignorant of human culture and history, but indoctrination has that effect.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:20 PM   #94
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What a weird day. The Court does exactly what I predicted, and punts the issue based on standing (not quite the same as dismissing it Spideyboy, nor is it as dead as you seem to believe...court of appeals can still revisit the issue and if a Governor of California, who does have standing, choses to do so...the Court can revisit it). But what makes it weird is that Sotomayor joined the dissent. That shocked the hell out of me. Furthermore, the rest of the liberal sect sidestepped. This says 2 things to me:

1) Even liberals on the Supreme Court have no interest in giving any sort of heightened civil rights scrutiny to homosexuals.

2) Homosexuals should be very grateful that Roberts and Scalia decided to play fair. The two of them could've very easily joined with Kennedy, Alito and Thomas (and apparently Sotomayor ) and given states free reign to ban gay marriage. I get Roberts doing it. He is very legacy-driven. He doesn't want his legacy to be that of oppression. I am absolutely floored by Scalia. I almost think he is just messing with people at this point.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:28 PM   #95
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Scalia should also be removed from court... he apparently said in his dissent that DOMA "has no prejudicial basis therefore should be left to stand"

that ideology needs to go away... especially if you can't tell what's prejudice and what's not.
You really don't know much about the law, do you? He isn't talking about the type of prejudice that you think. I believe he is referring to the legal concept of prejudice, which is very distinct from the term as you are using it.

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imo SCOTUS should be role models... and i don't believe role models should be worry about they're reputation and saving their butts from scrutiny. They should simply be worried about doing what's right. And I'm not sold that they are
I don't think SCOTUS much cares about saving their butts or reputation considering it is a lifetime appointment with no oversight. Furthermore, interpreting the law isn't about doing what is right. It is about doing what is legal. So no, to everything that you said.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:35 PM   #96
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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of course they have the right to reply ( never said squat nor implied that by the way ) I'm just speaking of Scalia's mentality.. which is prejudice, and outdated. And imo has no place for the highest court in the nation. It's impossible to be completely Biased, but I feel he's one of the least biased out there
So, people that think has he does should not have representation in our highest court?

Isn't that being discriminatory against them?

Something that you are fighting against?


And you talk about bias, so because 5 spoke "in your favor" you believe they aren't biased?

He and the others, look at the law, they make decisions...why would they give a rat's ass about "how it looks"? They are there for life if they choose. He interpreted it differently than 5 others. Those that marriage is between a man and woman only, they agree with him.

I'm very doubtful that we will ever get 9 justices that will interpret things the same. That is why there are 9.

I guess I'm just glad that the Supreme Court decision was what it was....not sure that I need to judge the judges....

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:43 PM   #97
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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2) Homosexuals should be very grateful that Roberts and Scalia decided to play fair. The two of them could've very easily joined with Kennedy, Alito and Thomas (and apparently Sotomayor ) and given states free reign to ban gay marriage. I get Roberts doing it. He is very legacy-driven. He doesn't want his legacy to be that of oppression. I am absolutely floored by Scalia. I almost think he is just messing with people at this point.
Reading through the judgment (again I am no lawyer) is that the question they deal with in the Prop 8 opinion is very narrow: it's about whether or not the petitioners had any legal standing to appeal a decision made when neither of the actual parties to the case (the state of California and the same-sex marriage proponents) asked for it. This was a question of how far a third party with no direct, vested interest in a case can appeal a lower court decision. It had less to do with oppression and more to do with the legal question.

I think Scalia and Roberts reasoned that if you took gay rights out of this case, you're left with a question of how far an intervenor can go in demanding that courts hear an appeal over any lawsuit that A) they were never a named party to, and B) they suffered no damage from. I think from a basic legal process standpoint, the conservative judges saw the can of worms they would open if they decided in the other direction.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:45 PM   #98
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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I usually don't comment in here, but I wanted to address this, because I've argued conservatives about this point.

Devout Christian Conservatives (particularly protestants) believe marriage was sanctioned by God. Because of this any other form of marriage than what the Bible discusses is illegitimate and isn't actually marriage. So other religions and cultures that don't meet their "idea" of what marriage is isn't actually a marriage in their eyes. To them there is only one kind of marriage and the rest is not in line with God. This is why the Conservatives can keep peddling that lie. Its a ridiculous way of looking at marriage and completely close minded and ignorant of human culture and history, but indoctrination has that effect.
but then why even fight this? if any other marriage isn't a "real" marriage to them, then why is gay marriage such a threat? i don't see them protesting another religion's wedding, nor do i see them attacking the court system for allowing justice's of the piece (or boat captains for that matter) to wed anyone. It just seems like a waste of breathe to me if that's there belief

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:46 PM   #99
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Reading through the judgment (again I am no lawyer) is that the question they deal with in the Prop 8 opinion is very narrow: it's about whether or not the petitioners had any legal standing to appeal a decision made when neither of the actual parties to the case (the state of California and the same-sex marriage proponents) asked for it. This was a question of how far a third party with no direct, vested interest in a case can appeal a lower court decision. It had less to do with oppression and more to do with the legal question.

I think Scalia and Roberts reasoned that if you took gay rights out of this case, you're left with a question of how far an intervenor can go in demanding that courts hear an appeal over any lawsuit that A) they were never a named party to, and B) they suffered no damage from. I think from a basic legal process standpoint, the conservative judges saw the can of worms they would open if they decided in the other direction.
Well, the decisions that were made and how they are worded already opens up all kinds of cans of worms.

Hell, just wait until Texas gets involved in this where same sex marriage is on the books as "against the law". I don't think our strong democratic women in our legislature have the energy for another all night filibuster again....

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:50 PM   #100
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So, people that think has he does should not have representation in our highest court?

Isn't that being discriminatory against them?

Something that you are fighting against?


And you talk about bias, so because 5 spoke "in your favor" you believe they aren't biased?

He and the others, look at the law, they make decisions...why would they give a rat's ass about "how it looks"? They are there for life if they choose. He interpreted it differently than 5 others. Those that marriage is between a man and woman only, they agree with him.

I'm very doubtful that we will ever get 9 justices that will interpret things the same. That is why there are 9.

I guess I'm just glad that the Supreme Court decision was what it was....not sure that I need to judge the judges....
oh lord kelly, im just disagreeing with his pov on DOMA, THATS IT. They also arn't the supreme intelligence of the Kree Empire... it's ok to "judge" their actions.. they're human, not infallible.

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