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Old 06-26-2013, 03:51 PM   #101
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Reading through the judgment (again I am no lawyer) is that the question they deal with in the Prop 8 opinion is very narrow: it's about whether or not the petitioners had any legal standing to appeal a decision made when neither of the actual parties to the case (the state of California and the same-sex marriage proponents) asked for it. This was a question of how far a third party with no direct, vested interest in a case can appeal a lower court decision. It had less to do with oppression and more to do with the legal question.

I think Scalia and Roberts reasoned that if you took gay rights out of this case, you're left with a question of how far an intervenor can go in demanding that courts hear an appeal over any lawsuit that A) they were never a named party to, and B) they suffered no damage from. I think from a basic legal process standpoint, the conservative judges saw the can of worms they would open if they decided in the other direction.

That is how I take it as well, but in my experience with Scalia....his conservatism usually ends where his bigotry begins. I find it curious that a standing issue, of all things, is enough to outweigh his bigotry. It is just a curious decision from him. All I can make of it is that Roberts wouldn't back down from his view and that Sotomayor probably would not have stayed on the dissent if it were to become a majority, so Scalia saw it as an opportunity to grandstand and show how originalist he is.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:52 PM   #102
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

Well, he can be a drama llama....

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:55 PM   #103
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oh lord kelly, im just disagreeing with his pov on DOMA, THATS IT. They also arn't the supreme intelligence of the Kree Empire... it's ok to "judge" their actions.. they're human, not infallible.
Your signature is wrong. Prop 8 wasn't slayed on June 26th 2013. On June 26th 2013, the Supreme Court declined to may a ruling on it because the petitioners did not have legal standing to argue on its behalf. A change of heart from the Court of Appeals or a Republican governor of California could easily revive the issue. I'd be more concerned about the latter.

If these opinions are any indication both Scalia and Roberts would've upheld Prop 8 if the governor of California was the one challenging it. Kennedy has made his view very clear....he is willing to let states outlaw gay marriage. The swing vote is on the opposite side of the issue. That should be very concerning to the gay rights movement.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:57 PM   #104
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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That is how I take it as well, but in my experience with Scalia....his conservatism usually ends where his bigotry begins. I find it curious that a standing issue, of all things, is enough to outweigh his bigotry. It is just a curious decision from him. All I can make of it is that Roberts wouldn't back down from his view and that Sotomayor probably would not have stayed on the dissent if it were to become a majority, so Scalia saw it as an opportunity to grandstand and show how originalist he is.
I agree ... his use of the word "sodomy" is appalling.

You can be a bigot all you want, but if you can't keep it out of your work, which is Supreme Court Justice, you need to find a new job.

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Old 06-26-2013, 03:58 PM   #105
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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I agree ... his use of the word "sodomy" is appalling.

You can be a bigot all you want, but if you can't keep it out of your work, which is Supreme Court Justice, you need to find a new job.
it's exactly how i feel about it.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:01 PM   #106
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Your signature is wrong. Prop 8 wasn't slayed on June 26th 2013. On June 26th 2013, the Supreme Court declined to may a ruling on it because the petitioners did not have legal standing to argue on its behalf. A change of heart from the Court of Appeals or a Republican governor of California could easily revive the issue. I'd be more concerned about the latter.

If these opinions are any indication both Scalia and Roberts would've upheld Prop 8 if the governor of California was the one challenging it. Kennedy has made his view very clear....he is willing to let states outlaw gay marriage. The swing vote is on the opposite side of the issue. That should be very concerning to the gay rights movement.
Not to quote myself, but this will be especially concerning in a state like Texas, as Kel pointed out. Rick Perry (or whoever is governor at the time) isn't going to back down. He will order the Texas government to defend any anti-gay marriage law on the books. If Scalia and Roberts are willing to vote rule in the opposite, provided the government challenges it....that precedent is concerning. It can also reinvigorate Prop 8, because such a ruling will effectively overturn the Court of Appeals in regard to California by saying that state governments/constitutions can make their own gay marriage laws.

This may prove to be a short lived victory. The more that I read the opinion, the more concern I have.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:12 PM   #107
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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Not to quote myself, but this will be especially concerning in a state like Texas, as Kel pointed out. Rick Perry (or whoever is governor at the time) isn't going to back down. He will order the Texas government to defend any anti-gay marriage law on the books. If Scalia and Roberts are willing to vote rule in the opposite, provided the government challenges it....that precedent is concerning. It can also reinvigorate Prop 8, because such a ruling will effectively overturn the Court of Appeals in regard to California by saying that state governments/constitutions can make their own gay marriage laws.

This may prove to be a short lived victory. The more that I read the opinion, the more concern I have.

I was going to bring up something else, but you've raised a good point here: the Prop 8 decision is really a double edged sword for the right and the left, which reveals maybe why Scalia and Roberts decided the way they did.

Maybe one day a big corporation sues a state government over a wage or environmental law that it claims threatens its financial rights. A newly elected pro-business governor agrees, so declines to oppose this lawsuit, and the big corporation wins. Under the dissenting opinion, a labor union or environmental group could have kept the lawsuit going, in order to preserve the legislation. But now there is a highest court decision saying they have no standing.

This has profound effects on a lot of areas of the law, hence the "can of worms" argument. Gay rights is no real can of worms, but I'm talking about every other aspect of law: labour, criminal, contracts, environmental standard, health care, etc.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:40 PM   #108
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

I am far from a Scalia fan, but not agreeing with someone's ruling is not grounds to remove them from court...

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:51 PM   #109
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

I think Scalia is a ville excuse for a human being but a lifetime appointment is a lifetime appointment. And Matt is right, the fight is far from over. It's a step forward but not some overwhelming victory.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:56 PM   #110
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I am far from a Scalia fan, but not agreeing with someone's ruling is not grounds to remove them from court...
that's not why i wanted him removed from the court.... it was because he apparently has a hard time putting those feelings aside with his work. Pink Ranger essentially summed up my thoughts perfectly. You've got to keep your personal thoughts at home for this position. And go literally by the books of law. Sometimes it favors one side over the other, and sometimes it doesn't. When you get your own personal politics behind it.. it doesn't really fit into the concept of justice and equality imo

I think the Supreme Court should be the most Un-Biased, and level headed court system in the nation, and i don't feel that they are.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:03 PM   #111
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Sometimes I think people forget that sodomy isn't exclusively a gay thing.

Hell, statistically speaking, it's more of a straight thing than a gay thing.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:05 PM   #112
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I think either way they would consider it unnatural and immoral though.

But yes. I'm not sure they realize how many straight people have anal sex.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:06 PM   #113
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Sometimes I think people forget that sodomy isn't exclusively a gay thing.

Hell, statistically speaking, it's more of a straight thing than a gay thing.
yeah, Sodomy is basically anything but vanilla sex. Oral sex is Sodomy

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:07 PM   #114
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I think either way they would consider it unnatural and immoral though.

But yes. I'm not sure they realize how many straight people have anal sex.
Sodomy isn't even by definition limited to just anal sex

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:09 PM   #115
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Sodomy also covers oral, which has traditionally been considered, risqué at best, and obscene (i.e. criminally vile) at worst.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:32 PM   #116
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SCOTUS can't allow for a circuit split of this magnitude. They will have to rule when the Fifth Circuit rules in the exact opposite way that the Ninth Circuit did for Prop 8. Kennedy, Roberts and Scalia have all tipped their hand. Once SCOTUS rules, the Ninth Circuit's opinion is invalid (once challenged, which it will immediately be). The more I read these opinions, the more that I think that Prop 8 will be valid again within the next five years.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:34 PM   #117
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Boy, who would have thought Iowa would legalize gay marriage before California.

This Prop 8 thing just won't go away.

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Old 06-26-2013, 06:41 PM   #118
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

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that's not why i wanted him removed from the court.... it was because he apparently has a hard time putting those feelings aside with his work. Pink Ranger essentially summed up my thoughts perfectly. You've got to keep your personal thoughts at home for this position. And go literally by the books of law. Sometimes it favors one side over the other, and sometimes it doesn't. When you get your own personal politics behind it.. it doesn't really fit into the concept of justice and equality imo

I think the Supreme Court should be the most Biased, and level headed court system in the nation, and i don't feel that they are.
I hope you mean unbiased.

That being said, there is something to having justices on both sides appointed. Because they'll bring passion to the debate and make sure that their side, and therefore both/all sides, are examined and force the entire court to play Devil's Advocate on their positions, whether their positions be on either side or centrist.

At least in theory.

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Old 06-26-2013, 06:44 PM   #119
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I hope you mean unbiased.
i did, my apologies

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Old 06-26-2013, 06:53 PM   #120
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Default Re: Discussion: Gay Rights XIV

I think Thomas is the worst SCOTUS Judge, not Scalia. Thomas shows no intellectual curiosity whatsoever. Last time he asked a question during oral arguments was in 2006 I think. He's happy to be a rubber-stamp for whatever his conservative colleagues decide. I'm not a fan of Scalia and often find his opinions ridiculous, but I respect his passion and ability to justify his rulings. I have no such regard for Thomas who is more like a tree stump than a Judge.

On a different note, I sincerely hope same-sex marriage is legalized nationwide within our lifetimes. This was a step forward, but not a huge leap. I feel bad for the gay couples in places like Texas which still had anti-sodomy laws on the books up until a decade ago.

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Old 06-26-2013, 09:26 PM   #121
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10 years. 20 tops.

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:26 PM   #122
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I am a little "late to the party" but I am obviously very happy with today's rulings. As others have said, this might not have been exactly what we hoped for but it is a very big step forward. The fight for equality marches on...

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Old 06-26-2013, 10:57 PM   #123
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The rulings are a step forward, but like Matt said... I think it's too early to break out the champagne and start planning city hall weddings.

We've got many steps to go before declaring marriage equality in all 50 states. So far, it only applies to the northwestern states that legalized it.

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Old 06-27-2013, 12:07 AM   #124
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Agreed with the last two posts. It's a really great step in moving forward in equality for everyone

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Old 06-27-2013, 02:18 AM   #125
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10 years. 20 tops.
How do you see that happening? It'd have to be a SCOTUS decision (with a different make-up than the current one), because a federal law isn't going to get passed in the next decade with the way congress is getting more and more polarized (unless views shift even more radically than they have the last decade). I hope you're right, but I think it might take a bit longer. Maybe 20. Don't see Alabama having same-sex marriage by 2023.

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