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Old 07-19-2013, 03:56 PM   #101
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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It would be really interesting if Raimi revealed what he wanted the story for the 4th film to be. The first 3 films have kind of a similar structure in a way(the birth of the enemy, Aunt May speech, and MJ getting kidnapped which leads to the final battle are just a few that come to mind)-But I don't think all 3 films were carbon copies of each other, just similar at times. That's why it would be cool to know if Sam wanted to change things up a bit, have a different structure for the 4th (and 5th and 6th possibly) film(s).

I really like TASM though. The first viewing I didn't really have an opinion b/c I couldn't stop comparing it to the original. But after I knew what they did better, or worse, compared to the original I was able to enjoy the film more. Happy we have a new series.
the difference though is that Raimi didn't write the story for 4. He was working based on the scripts that Columbia was giving him and he was unhappy with all of them.

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Old 07-19-2013, 04:00 PM   #102
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No it didn't. It was obvious it was a different film with a different cast and approach.

People didn't want to see it because they didn't need another origin, thought a reboot was unnecessary and most folks still liked Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man (They polled that one). And it didn't get a lot of repeat business because it wasn't a very good film.

Anyway, despite what folks here might say, Spidey 3 was a hit film with one of the best openings ever.
Batman Begins was obviously a different film with a different cast and approach, but Batman & Robin had somewhat tainted the Batman movie franchise. As good as the film was, BB didn't really break any records in the box office.

As far as saying TASM is not a very good film, I don't know if that is a fair argument for why it made the least amount of money. Firstly, its just your opinion, and many others would disagree with you on the movie's quality. Secondly, generally speaking, audiences DID like TASM, and it probably earned more money that most of us here would have thought. Its the movie that "nobody" wanted, so that really made an impact on the box office results. It had to compete with two giants, The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises, so it had tough competition.

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Old 07-19-2013, 04:01 PM   #103
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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the difference though is that Raimi didn't write the story for 4. He was working based on the scripts that Columbia was giving him and he was unhappy with all of them.
That's what I mean, it would be fun to hear the story Raimi himself wanted, or at least what direction he wanted to go in.

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Old 07-19-2013, 04:50 PM   #104
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
No it didn't. It was obvious it was a different film with a different cast and approach.

People didn't want to see it because they didn't need another origin, thought a reboot was unnecessary and most folks still liked Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man (They polled that one). And it didn't get a lot of repeat business because it wasn't a very good film.

Anyway, despite what folks here might say, Spidey 3 was a hit film with one of the best openings ever.
SM3- 51%
TASM-81%
Just because Tobey was liked didn't mean people weren't going to like TASM.
I don't like IM3 but I don't pretend like it's a badly recieved film. People loved it - 82%. If money matters so much I guess SM3 is the best and SM2 is the worst?

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:00 PM   #105
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

No wonder my dad doesn't like superhero movies, this is the first one he watched in the cinema.

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:02 PM   #106
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And now it's seen to be one of the worst and has a mediocre 51% on RT.
Considering that MOS has a 56% rating,and most people around here are proclaiming it "Bestest Movie Everrrrrr!",I don't think it's that big a deal.

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:10 PM   #107
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I think for the past 7 or so years I was too easy on this movie.

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Old 07-19-2013, 05:17 PM   #108
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Considering that MOS has a 56% rating,and most people around here are proclaiming it "Bestest Movie Everrrrrr!",I don't think it's that big a deal.
That's why I used the user one

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Old 07-19-2013, 06:41 PM   #109
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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SM3- 51%
TASM-81%
Just because Tobey was liked didn't mean people weren't going to like TASM.
I don't like IM3 but I don't pretend like it's a badly recieved film. People loved it - 82%. If money matters so much I guess SM3 is the best and SM2 is the worst?
I don't know where those scores are from. RT has it 63% for Spidey 3 & 73% for TASM but the thing is even many fresh reviews says it isn't very good, just that it isn't terrible. But scores have nothing to do with public acceptance. I believe "Identity thief" scored like 24% and was a monster hit.

Again, most folks simply didn't see the point for another origin this soon.
As for what Raimi film is the best, no, money isn't the determining factor. But if the point is being made that Spidey 3 was so terribly received, then TASM had a worse reception. And Spidey 3 wasn't that poorly received. It's only the fans who care to nitpick that gripe about it. Is it the movie I wanted to see? No. But it wasn't the total POS some folks make it out to be.

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Old 07-19-2013, 06:56 PM   #110
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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I don't know where those scores are from.
51% and 81% are the user review scores from RT for SM3 and ASM, respectively.

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Old 07-19-2013, 06:59 PM   #111
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Batman Begins was obviously a different film with a different cast and approach, but Batman & Robin had somewhat tainted the Batman movie franchise. As good as the film was, BB didn't really break any records in the box office.
Well, honestly that's very different. There was an 8 year gap between films so one really can't say B&R determined the box office for Begins. B&R was an actual flop at the box office, whereas BB made some money although not much. If you ask me, BB wasn't that great a movie either. It wasn't bad in the way that B&R was, just kind of boring. I think it's given praise now more so because its coat-tailed with TDK as being a "Nolan Film". If you love one you have to love them all. Same with TDKR, which I just watched again last Friday and thought was total garbage. That was not Batman on that screen.


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As far as saying TASM is not a very good film, I don't know if that is a fair argument for why it made the least amount of money. Firstly, its just your opinion, and many others would disagree with you on the movie's quality. Secondly, generally speaking, audiences DID like TASM, and it probably earned more money that most of us here would have thought. Its the movie that "nobody" wanted, so that really made an impact on the box office results. It had to compete with two giants, The Avengers and The Dark Knight Rises, so it had tough competition.
The film was spaced out enough not to be competing with either film. It could have made plenty of money and gotten repeat business if people really wanted to see it, and more importantly, wanted to see it again. But that didn't happen.

As for the quality- yeah, it is my opinion. It's also opinion that Spidey 3 was horrible. And much of that isn't based on the quality either but the belief that Venom deserved more screen time.

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Old 07-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #112
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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51% and 81% are the user review scores from RT for SM3 and ASM, respectively.
Yeah. So the fanboys (The only ones who'd go to places like RT to rate films) liked TASM better. That doesn't speak of the GA, which is what determines how these movies actually perform.

What tends to be the case as far as hardcore TASM fans is that many seemed to have been children when Spidey '02 was released and now that they're in their teens and early twenties they've latched onto TASM as the Spidey for "Their Generation" kind of like other cult films that don't really deserve their
status.

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Old 07-19-2013, 07:59 PM   #113
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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No it didn't. It was obvious it was a different film with a different cast and approach.
Fanboys such like ourselves might be caring about that. But people was still believing Batman Begins was a prequel to Burton's movie back in 2005. They can't care less about approaches and such, they care that's "another Spuder-man movie."

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People didn't want to see it because they didn't need another origin, thought a reboot was unnecessary and most folks still liked Tobey Maguire as Spider-Man (They polled that one). And it didn't get a lot of repeat business because it wasn't a very good film.
It was miles better than SM3 and that's why we're getting a sequel.

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Anyway, despite what folks here might say, Spidey 3 was a hit film with one of the best openings ever.
As was Transformers 2, another crappy film.

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Old 07-19-2013, 09:53 PM   #114
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Fanboys such like ourselves might be caring about that. But people was still believing Batman Begins was a prequel to Burton's movie back in 2005. They can't care less about approaches and such, they care that's "another Spuder-man movie."
No one thought it was a prequel to Burton's film. And even if they did, Burton's film was a hit. So they wouldn't have had an issue with B & R either way.



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It was miles better than SM3 and that's why we're getting a sequel.
Spidey 3 was getting a sequel until Raimi quit. Anyway, Sony simply recognizes the money making potential of Spider-Man (The Raimi films made 3 billion bucks) so even if TASM didn't do that well there's always the chance that the sequels could do better. But note how they did things like go back to the Raimi costume.

Quote:
As was Transformers 2, another crappy film.
And TASM was crappy and didn't do that well. Sometimes things work out

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Old 07-19-2013, 10:00 PM   #115
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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51% and 81% are the user review scores from RT for SM3 and ASM, respectively.
Actually it's 53% and 77%. And let's also put it perspective. There were far less users for TASM than SM3. (Less than 800,000 vs. 2.3 million, respectively) so more people still liked SM3 than TASM.

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Old 07-19-2013, 11:34 PM   #116
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Actually it's 53% and 77%. And let's also put it perspective. There were far less users for TASM than SM3. (Less than 800,000 vs. 2.3 million, respectively) so more people still liked SM3 than TASM.
Hey, I was just clearing up where the poster RedBlueWonder got those numbers from since you didn't seem to know, or at least I was under the impression that you didn't know based on the response you gave to his post.

As far as I am concerned, RT doesn't mean very much at all. It's like a half-assed source or reference that isn't very reliable. What is funny is how certain people use the RT scores as a point in an argument on one topic but then turn on it when the numbers don't give them the support they need. I don't need scores from a 'copy and paste' site to make up my own mind. I'm quite capable of forming my own opinion based on my own set of scores or values.

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Old 07-20-2013, 12:07 AM   #117
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No one thought it was a prequel to Burton's film. And even if they did, Burton's film was a hit. So they wouldn't have had an issue with B & R either way.
Yes they did. They even said that Begins ended with the Joker card to make the "connection" with Burton's movie.

But yes it was difficult to get over the bat-credit card, freeze puns (equivalents of dancing finger-gunning Peter), so no matter what movie started all, B&R was just crap.

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Spidey 3 was getting a sequel until Raimi quit. Anyway, Sony simply recognizes the money making potential of Spider-Man (The Raimi films made 3 billion bucks) so even if TASM didn't do that well there's always the chance that the sequels could do better. But note how they did things like go back to the Raimi costume.
The costume was one of Raimi's triumphs.

You won't see any emo dancing finger-gunning Peter, I can tell you that.

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And TASM was crappy and didn't do that well. Sometimes things work out
Well for a movie that give progression to the characters Raimi kept the same for three movies, that doesn't sound too crappy to me.

But well, SM3 is not the first crappy movie that somehow succeeds at the BO, nor it will be the last. Thing is, the money doesn't fix the movie up.

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Old 07-20-2013, 06:49 AM   #118
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I sometimes wonder though I sony even realized that SM3 was not well received. I mean, from their point of view the movie made nearly 900 mill, which for 2007 is basically like earning over a billion today. So from a Sony exec point of view SM3 was a tremendous success and there's nothing wrong with it.

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Old 07-20-2013, 07:11 AM   #119
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Actually it's 53% and 77%. And let's also put it perspective. There were far less users for TASM than SM3. (Less than 800,000 vs. 2.3 million, respectively) so more people still liked SM3 than TASM.
Lol a lot of CBM have dropped for some reason...

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Old 07-20-2013, 07:50 AM   #120
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

SPIDER-MAN 3 IS NOT AS BAD AS YOU THINK IT IS.

It's not a great film, but it's hardly the disaster that people make it out to be. It's at best a solid 3-star movie and at worst...2-and-a-half? It's just not that bad. Not much different from a lot of other superhero flicks (IMO) like:

Batman Returns
Superman Returns
Iron Man 2
X-Men 3
The first 2 Blade movies
Ang Lee's Hulk
Green Lantern
Daredevil

And it's WAY better than a lot of the real ****-ups of the genre such as:

Catwoman
Both Schumacher Batman movies (though these are enjoyably bad)
Superman III and IV
Both Ghost Rider movies
Both Fantastic Four movies
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Elektra
Blade: Trinity

And even...(ready for this one?)

The Amazing Spider-Man.

Yeah, you read that right.

At least the parts where Spidey 3 slips up were due to half-mad creative hubris. TASM is just an uninspired borefest that steals from other franchises.

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SM1: 8.5/10
SM2: 9.5/10
SM3: 6.5/10
TASM: 4/10
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:10 PM   #121
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Hey, I was just clearing up where the poster RedBlueWonder got those numbers from since you didn't seem to know, or at least I was under the impression that you didn't know based on the response you gave to his post.

As far as I am concerned, RT doesn't mean very much at all. It's like a half-assed source or reference that isn't very reliable. What is funny is how certain people use the RT scores as a point in an argument on one topic but then turn on it when the numbers don't give them the support they need. I don't need scores from a 'copy and paste' site to make up my own mind. I'm quite capable of forming my own opinion based on my own set of scores or values.
This.

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Old 07-20-2013, 01:24 PM   #122
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Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

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Yes they did. They even said that Begins ended with the Joker card to make the "connection" with Burton's movie.
I was here when the film was released and everyone got that that scene was lifted from the end of the comic series Batman: Year One. There could be no connection to Batman '89 since Batman was there for the Joker's birth and he clearly wasn't in BB. Anyway, even if there was a connection with Batman '89, that could only help since that was a blockbuster, and certainly had no connection to B&R.


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But yes it was difficult to get over the bat-credit card, freeze puns (equivalents of dancing finger-gunning Peter), so no matter what movie started all, B&R was just crap.
There's no debate there. But 8 years was plenty of time to distance the new franchise from B&R. And anyone watching the trailer would clearly see that the two had nothing to do with each other. And again- B&R was a flop. It didn't even make back it's negative cost. BB was a modest hit. That it wasn't a blockbuster is because the film's own failings. A boring, unknown villain. Tiresome action sequences. Throughout the Nolan series the action was terrible. Batman vs. Bane was a sad joke.

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The costume was one of Raimi's triumphs.
True. Best costume translation yet.

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You won't see any emo dancing finger-gunning Peter, I can tell you that.
But you will see a dorky light bulb headed Electro who's created by being dunked in a tank of EELS. That's right- EELS. The campy portrayal of the Rhino, an idiot in a mech-suit.

And TASM screwed up important scenes like Uncle Ben's death, Captain Stacy's death and the handling of the Lizard.

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Well for a movie that give progression to the characters Raimi kept the same for three movies, that doesn't sound too crappy to me.
What progression? Peter was written as a moron throughout the film. The entire structure was wrong. The only good scene in the film was the school fight.

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But well, SM3 is not the first crappy movie that somehow succeeds at the BO, nor it will be the last. Thing is, the money doesn't fix the movie up.
Well, I'll put it this way- IMO- there are more enjoyable scenes in SM3, flawed as it is, than there was in TASM.

As for the street dancing- I honestly don't think the scene was meant to be taken literally. Peter strutting and dancing to music on the soundtrack- that no one could actually hear. I really think the sequence was more meant to be symbolic of what was going on in Peter's head, showing the mental change happening to him via the symbiote. It was meant to be funny, and ultimately, it was. The scene still makes me laugh to this day.

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Old 07-20-2013, 01:43 PM   #123
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But you will see a dorky light bulb headed Electro who's created by being dunked in a tank of EELS. That's right- EELS. The campy portrayal of the Rhino, an idiot in a mech-suit.
The electric eels come from Spectacular Spider-Man, which is considered to be one of the best, if not THE best version of Spider-Man outside of the comic books. Electro's storyline worked quite well in that show, and I think it could work out fine in TASM2.

How the hell do you know if Rhino's portrayal is going to be campy? Have you seen the movie, or is that just your guess? (We both know its the latter, but I had to ask).

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And TASM screwed up important scenes like Uncle Ben's death, Captain Stacy's death and the handling of the Lizard.
The death of Uncle Ben and Captain Stacy were handled fine IMO. They weren't "screwed up." I do agree that the Lizard could have been portrayed better though.

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What progression? Peter was written as a moron throughout the film. The entire structure was wrong. The only good scene in the film was the school fight.
Not this.

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Well, I'll put it this way- IMO- there are more enjoyable scenes in SM3, flawed as it is, than there was in TASM.
Disagree...

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As for the street dancing- I honestly don't think the scene was meant to be taken literally. Peter strutting and dancing to music on the soundtrack- that no one could actually hear. I really think the sequence was more meant to be symbolic of what was going on in Peter's head, showing the mental change happening to him via the symbiote. It was meant to be funny, and ultimately, it was. The scene still makes me laugh to this day.
You sit there bashing TASM, calling Peter a moron, but you defend Emo Peter dancing down the street in SM3? I'm done here. Your credibility has been thrown right out of a window.

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Old 07-20-2013, 02:16 PM   #124
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The electric eels come from Spectacular Spider-Man, which is considered to be one of the best, if not THE best version of Spider-Man outside of the comic books. Electro's storyline worked quite well in that show, and I think it could work out fine in TASM2.
SSM was a kid's show. It was written that way and in general that's the fanbase. Electro falling into a tank of eels is about as silly a Peter getting bitten from being in a room full of spiders with no explanation of why the spider's bite would affect any change in Peter.

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How the hell do you know if Rhino's portrayal is going to be campy? Have you seen the movie, or is that just your guess? (We both know its the latter, but I had to ask).
Have you seen the photos? Paul Giamatti has a crown of barbed wire on his head. In every scene he's overacting and he winds up in a CG mech-suit.

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The death of Uncle Ben and Captain Stacy were handled fine IMO. They weren't "screwed up." I do agree that the Lizard could have been portrayed better though.
Ben was responsible for his own death- and Peter was close enough to have helped him. Peter learns nothing from Ben's death as he remains an arrogant prick throughout the film.

Captain Stacy's death was a contrivance. Again, Peter could have easily gotten him out of danger- And loaded the bio-cannon. It didn't contain the irony of the comic death, that Peter was indirectly the cause of his death by using an untested device on Ock which sent his tentacles into an uncontrolled rampage.

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Not this.



Disagree...



You sit there bashing TASM, calling Peter a moron, but you defend Emo Peter dancing down the street in SM3? I'm done here. Your credibility has been thrown right out of a window.
And that means... Well, pretty much nothing to me.

What can I tell ya? I wasn't upswept in the calculated Twilight-ish approach to TASM as many of its fans were so that I could overlook its many flaws. And because I can see the obvious joke presented in SM3 whereas the detractors were taking the whole thing far too seriously is I think to my benefit.

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Old 07-20-2013, 02:24 PM   #125
Green Goblin
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,077
Default Re: Are we too harsh on SM3?

I get the feeling you didn't want to like TASM... If I remember SM3 lost in the polls by an embarrassing amount and TASM came 2nd...

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