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Old 07-08-2013, 03:27 PM   #26
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

I dont think it's very meaningful. I would say it's extremely tacky in the point it wants to make. It's also not particularly well shot , acted , edited. It cuts too many times between the action. Quite a bore , in such a tight film. Not even the bad parts of Begins are that bad.

Rises not being so much of a thriller helps a lot. It's on a totally different scale , the way everything unfolds. But i also thinks its normal that if someone doesn't enjoy the film as a whole , some scenes might drag. But its a totally different situation in TDK , where the momentum is completely broken apart.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:32 PM   #27
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Its not as effective on subsequent viewings when you know what will happen... but it is still just as meaningful, and honestly I don't find it boring. Unlike parts of TDKR which just draaaag. Maybe because they involve characters I don't care as much about, like John Blake.
Snap.

I find myself skipping the Blake centric scenes.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #28
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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I dont think it's very meaningful. I would say it's extremely tacky in the point it wants to make.
Really? Its a battle for Gotham's soul, as Joker explicitly says in the movie. Its when Bruce finally displays the faith in people that Rachel urged him to have. Its the crescendo of Gotham's arc in TDK, i.e. it shows that Gotham can and will be redeemed, that the dawn IS coming. Compare that to TDKR, in which Gotham isn't even a character, its just a setting.

Its more than just a prisoner's dilemma, its the climax of most of the themes of TDK and even Batman Begins (remember Ra's telling Bruce that Gotham was beyond saving?).

I find it quite an emotionally powerful sequence.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:55 PM   #29
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Because TDKR is not a city story like TDK is. It's a different movie with different priorities like Bruce's arch.

I personally never skip the Blake scenes. I don't skip anything in these movies. Blake is actually one of my favorite characters. He represents the best of Gotham City. He represents the best qualities in all of Batman's successors, all the Robins, and other Batman's.

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Old 07-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #30
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Kinda seems weird to shortchange important characters / arcs like Gotham and Gordon in the final film, which is supposed to be the culmination of all those stories. TDKR isn't a city story? Huh. Why was it based off of "A Tale of Two Cities" then?

If ANY of the films should have been a city story it should have been TDKR.

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Old 07-09-2013, 02:43 AM   #31
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Really? Its a battle for Gotham's soul, as Joker explicitly says in the movie. Its when Bruce finally displays the faith in people that Rachel urged him to have. Its the crescendo of Gotham's arc in TDK, i.e. it shows that Gotham can and will be redeemed, that the dawn IS coming. Compare that to TDKR, in which Gotham isn't even a character, its just a setting.

Its more than just a prisoner's dilemma, its the climax of most of the themes of TDK and even Batman Begins (remember Ra's telling Bruce that Gotham was beyond saving?).

I find it quite an emotionally powerful sequence.
In TDKR the city is as developed as any of the other movies. Nolan's presents us the different spectrum of Gotham that matters to his stories by displaying pawns as the actions evolves. I would say it's a hell of a lot more effective , than a bunch of nobodies that yawn everytime the camera is pointed at them. The less the anonymous the better , because the generalizations you make regarding non-existent characters is almost a fallacy. They are nothing more than plot device.

Emotional is seeing Gordon urging himself to save Dent. Emotional is the final payoff between him , bat and harvey. Their actions are meaningful because they are fleshed and developed through the story.

The city is as much of a character when it enters in full apathy when Joker tells them what to do in the boat , as when Bane addresses them. The same sort of reaction. Nothing really separates them.

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:29 AM   #32
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Snap.

I find myself skipping the Blake centric scenes.
Agreed. I probably fast forward through the Blake centered scenes more then any other part of the trilogy.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:20 AM   #33
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Ah, Blake bashing. A favorite pastime here.

I find it pretty wild that now we're putting Coleman Reese...a perfectly fine and serviceable (but also completely unremarkable) subplot from TDK on this pedestal just to put down anything related to Blake.

Here's what it comes down to. If Reese had figured out Bruce's identity based on an emotional connection, that would have been terrible. Why? Because Reese is an unimportant, secondary character. When Blake reveals that he knows who Bruce is, this is the movie's way of showing us that Blake WILL be an important figure in this movie. It's there to represent the "we're the same" component that you usually get in Robin origin stories.

The reason so many reject Blake's explanation in the scene is because they seem to resist the notion of Blake being an important character. Which is perfectly fine, but you see- if you actually appreciate and respect Blake's presence in the film, that scene works really well.

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:10 PM   #34
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Ah, Blake bashing. A favorite pastime here.

I find it pretty wild that now we're putting Coleman Reese...a perfectly fine and serviceable (but also completely unremarkable) subplot from TDK on this pedestal just to put down anything related to Blake.

Here's what it comes down to. If Reese had figured out Bruce's identity based on an emotional connection, that would have been terrible. Why? Because Reese is an unimportant, secondary character. When Blake reveals that he knows who Bruce is, this is the movie's way of showing us that Blake WILL be an important figure in this movie. It's there to represent the "we're the same" component that you usually get in Robin origin stories.

The reason so many reject Blake's explanation in the scene is because they seem to resist the notion of Blake being an important character. Which is perfectly fine, but you see- if you actually appreciate and respect Blake's presence in the film, that scene works really well.

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Old 07-09-2013, 05:14 PM   #35
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Ah, Blake bashing. A favorite pastime here.
Justified, too.

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I find it pretty wild that now we're putting Coleman Reese...a perfectly fine and serviceable (but also completely unremarkable) subplot from TDK on this pedestal just to put down anything related to Blake.
The fall out from the Reese discovery (Citizens going nuts trying to kill him, hospital explosion, even Fox''s brilliant handling of his blackmail attempt) are far more compelling than most of Blake's sleepy scenes with orphans, moral posturing of Gordon, blabbing about looks on faces and feelings in the bones etc.

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Here's what it comes down to. If Reese had figured out Bruce's identity based on an emotional connection, that would have been terrible. Why? Because Reese is an unimportant, secondary character. When Blake reveals that he knows who Bruce is, this is the movie's way of showing us that Blake WILL be an important figure in this movie.
There are other, not to mention better and more plausible ways of showing he will be an important character than this laughable scene.

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The reason so many reject Blake's explanation in the scene is because they seem to resist the notion of Blake being an important character. Which is perfectly fine
Not at all. There's not many fans of Rachel Dawes, but we all accept she was an important character. But people don't have to accept bad writing, like this Blake scene had. Well acted by Levitt, but such awful material he has to verbally spew.

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Old 07-09-2013, 06:14 PM   #36
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

That laughable scene is one of my favorites in the entire trilogy and I get a lump in my throat every time it comes on. What you call sleepy scenes, I found compelling.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:04 PM   #37
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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The fall out from the Reese discovery (Citizens going nuts trying to kill him, hospital explosion, even Fox''s brilliant handling of his blackmail attempt) are far more compelling than most of Blake's sleepy scenes with orphans, moral posturing of Gordon, blabbing about looks on faces and feelings in the bones etc.
I should have been more clear. The Reese subplot had a great payoff with the hospital sequence, but that was mainly due to The Joker's scheme. In other words I'm just saying everything good Reese brings to TDK is more a result of how the characters around him react to him. So he works well as a minor character, I just think it's a bit misguided to compare him to a more important character such as Blake.

And personally, I find the scene between Blake and Gordon to be a very powerful one. And I'm totally on Gordon's side in it. That's what's compelling about it though, they're both right and they're both wrong. A fine tribute to the moral complexity of TDK's ending.

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There are other, not to mention better and more plausible ways of showing he will be an important character than this laughable scene.
I still think it was a good way to establish Blake as an eventual heir to the cave. I know the popular preference is for Blake to have deduced it based on a piece of hard evidence (thus proving himself as a detective), but I still feel like placing the emphasis on the emotional core of their relationship was a good way to go. Not to mention, because of Reese, we've already had a scene in the trilogy where a character explains how he was able to logically deduce the identity based on some snooping. The Blake reveal was more dramatic because it broke from that and he just knew it from a gut level, at least IMO. It took me completely off guard but I liked it for that. The important part of that scene is that Blake is trying to get Bruce back into action. Blake bringing up the loss of his own parents is bound to get through to a hardened and shut-off Bruce. From a storytelling perspective, it's also a good way to start bringing things full circle. Especially after TDK made no mention of the Waynes (which I liked btw). Blake could've went on to elaborate on how he realized the Bruce fit the profile, had the motive and the money, was gone for 7 years and returned shortly before the first appearance of the Batman. But that's kind of unnecessary, because there's no reason to assume he didn't put all of that information together. He does prove himself to be a good detective later in the film, after all.


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Not at all. There's not many fans of Rachel Dawes, but we all accept she was an important character. But people don't have to accept bad writing, like this Blake scene had. Well acted by Levitt, but such awful material he has to verbally spew.
Well, I based that on some of the things I've seen Blake-haters say, such as preferring to see Bruce die in the end if it meant he didn't have to pass the mantle. That's a pretty extreme stance to take IMO (one I totally respect I might add), and to me that indicates a huge resentment of Blake's mere existence in the movie. You can acknowledge something is important while not liking the fact that it's important. That's what I take away from Blake haters. They get it, they just don't like it. And that's FINE. That's the subjective part. All I'm saying (and have been saying for the past year) is that if you actually like Blake as a character and what he represents in the movie, that first scene between him and Bruce is a less cringe-worthy experience. It's a bit melodramatic, sure, but I think Nolan and JGL (with a huge assist from Zimmer) were able to nail down the emotional truth of that scene. When the high-pitched version of the two-note Bat theme creeps in as Blake starts his story, it's like the sound of something faint and dormant awakening within Bruce, while a new separate legend is beginning all at the same time. I love it.

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Old 07-09-2013, 08:15 PM   #38
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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It's funny how I see the film with anybody who isn't a hardcore Bat fan/comic fan...people who watch all kinds of other films that range from dramas to action to artsy films, well written, well directed movies and they ALL thought the scene was very logical and wonderful. Then the only people I talk to who are massive bat fans and comic book readers and a good portion of you guys are the ones who think the scene is unbelievable.

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What a terrible, desperate attempt at an argument

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Old 07-09-2013, 09:45 PM   #39
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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I should have been more clear. The Reese subplot had a great payoff with the hospital sequence, but that was mainly due to The Joker's scheme. In other words I'm just saying everything good Reese brings to TDK is more a result of how the characters around him react to him. So he works well as a minor character, I just think it's a bit misguided to compare him to a more important character such as Blake.
That's not the area in which they're being compared though. The comparison is how each one of them learned Bruce was Batman.

One was plausible, the other was ridiculously unbelievable.

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And personally, I find the scene between Blake and Gordon to be a very powerful one. And I'm totally on Gordon's side in it. That's what's compelling about it though, they're both right and they're both wrong. A fine tribute to the moral complexity of TDK's ending.
I agree, but it was a mere drop in the bucket compared to what we should have gotten given the big deal they made out of the Dent cover up. Nobody reacts to it except Blake.

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I still think it was a good way to establish Blake as an eventual heir to the cave. I know the popular preference is for Blake to have deduced it based on a piece of hard evidence (thus proving himself as a detective), but I still feel like placing the emphasis on the emotional core of their relationship was a good way to go.
It's a good way to go if it's done in a credible way. This is not a little thing Blake has discovered. He has deduced a closely guarded secret. How he did that should be the height of credibility. Instead we got some hogwash about recognizing a look.

I cannot roll my eyes enough at that concept.

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Not to mention, because of Reese, we've already had a scene in the trilogy where a character explains how he was able to logically deduce the identity based on some snooping.
Different kind of scene though. Like we've had two villains with two destroy the city plans using a piece of Wayne tech. You could call that repetitive and old hat.

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The Blake reveal was more dramatic because it broke from that and he just knew it from a gut level, at least IMO. It took me completely off guard but I liked it for that.
It took me off guard, too, for the wrong reasons. I was hoping he'd go on to say the look got him suspicious and then he collated more info and investigations. But no. It was all predicated on some look he saw once when Bruce visited an orphanage.

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The important part of that scene is that Blake is trying to get Bruce back into action. Blake bringing up the loss of his own parents is bound to get through to a hardened and shut-off Bruce.
I'm well aware of the purpose of the scene. It's the execution of it that's horribly done.

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Well, I based that on some of the things I've seen Blake-haters say, such as preferring to see Bruce die in the end if it meant he didn't have to pass the mantle. That's a pretty extreme stance to take IMO (one I totally respect I might add), and to me that indicates a huge resentment of Blake's mere existence in the movie.
I'd say that's more of a case of people hating the idea of anyone except Bruce Wayne being Batman. It's one thing to be a temporary fill in, it's another to inherit the mantle altogether.

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Old 07-09-2013, 10:08 PM   #40
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Fair enough Joker, as always you state your arguments well. At the end of the day there are those of us who are willing to buy "recognizing a look" and those who simply are not. No matter how well we each may back up our POV, it's not going to change that fundamental difference of opinion. In my case, I think it's much more ridiculous if you think of it a real world context, but it makes a lot more sense if you picture Blake's description in your head as a movie scene in which a young Blake watches Bruce at the orphanage, with the two of them maybe locking eyes for a brief moment, and there's an implied connection there. Idk, the way Blake described it was cinematic in my head so I guess that's why I'm able to believe in it. My own girlfriend isn't a huge fan of it, so I totally get that it didn't work for everyone. But I defended it to her just like I do on here

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Old 07-09-2013, 10:11 PM   #41
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Even if I imagine that as a movie scene, it makes no sense. Blake looks at Bruce... they have a connection... and suddenly he knows Bruce is Batman?

Having a connection I can understand. Knowing his superhero identity seems absurd. That's almost a feat of telepathy.

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Old 07-09-2013, 10:25 PM   #42
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Even if I imagine that as a movie scene, it makes no sense. Blake looks at Bruce... they have a connection... and suddenly he knows Bruce is Batman?

Having a connection I can understand. Knowing his superhero identity seems absurd. That's almost a feat of telepathy.
If that were a scene in a movie though, it'd be contextualized with the other orphans telling their own stories about Bruce Wayne being this awesome guy, perhaps even that he was the Batman. That's definitely the implication I get from Blake saying, "To the other kids that's all it was, just stories...". Combine the two things, and in "movie logic" (which is much different than real life logic), when we cut to a closeup of little Blake watching Bruce suspiciously while Bruce's demeanor is noticeably different for a brief fleeting moment, we'd understand that he has a hunch about him. I'm not trying to make a serious argument here, that's just the scene I picture in my head when Blake is telling his story. Just my subjective take on it.

Besides though, to me it's not about him instantly knowing he's Batman. It's about him realizing that the whole playboy thing is a deliberate facade that's hiding...something. That's the ultimate point of that story. He had a hunch that turned out to be correct. He had 8-9 years to further contemplate it, look at the surrounding evidence, etc.

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Old 07-10-2013, 03:11 PM   #43
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Silly thread is silly.

Yes, Coleman's is technically a better reason to know who Batman is. However, JGL's acting is so good in that scene that I can buy he slowly put the pieces together over the years. In all honesty the whole GCPD should considering very few people in Gotham City could afford Batman's arsenal and technical expertise while also completely disappearing from the city. Nevermind that Batman and Bruce Wayne both crop up at the exact same time.

Anyway, Blake works great in TDKR. I think fans just want to take the character down because they consider it a slight that he is "Robin" without ever being called Dick Grayson or wearing the costume. Which to me is irrelevant.

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Old 07-10-2013, 04:21 PM   #44
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Silly thread is silly.

Yes, Coleman's is technically a better reason to know who Batman is. However, JGL's acting is so good in that scene that I can buy he slowly put the pieces together over the years. In all honesty the whole GCPD should considering very few people in Gotham City could afford Batman's arsenal and technical expertise while also completely disappearing from the city. Nevermind that Batman and Bruce Wayne both crop up at the exact same time.

Anyway, Blake works great in TDKR. I think fans just want to take the character down because they consider it a slight that he is "Robin" without ever being called Dick Grayson or wearing the costume. Which to me is irrelevant.
Yeah what is more surprising is not that Blake figured out Wayne was Batman but that nobody else managed to figure it out, that was a bigger suspension of disbelief yet one, little old cop, figures out his secret identity AND THEN EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND!!

Pretty much it seems to me the love or hate of TDKR pretty much revolves around liking or disliking Blake, he seems to be the crux of the film that sends it either way.

Like you however i thought JGL was fantastic in the role and love the way he "acted" as Robin throughout in front of your eyes without realising it or being called it until the last few scenes

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Old 07-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #45
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Anyway, Blake works great in TDKR. I think fans just want to take the character down because they consider it a slight that he is "Robin" without ever being called Dick Grayson or wearing the costume. Which to me is irrelevant.
My problem with Blake is that he is a boring and generic Gary Stu. I thought he was a complete screen vacuum throughout the whole film. When I rewatched TDKR, I started thinking on all the possible things they could have done in the film if Blake was cut out. They could spent more time to develop characters like Catwoman, Bane and even Talia. Instead, we had to watch a very boring and generic character (IMO) who is not only nowhere as interesting as the rest of the characters in the film but is also not a new archetype to this particular continuity. I consider him to be Batman Begins' Gordon only far less interesting.

To be fair though, Joseph Gordon-Levitt delivered a great performance. It just sucks that it wasn't for a more compelling character.

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Old 07-10-2013, 05:01 PM   #46
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

I can only speak for myself and say that my beef with Blake was that I was not convinced with what I saw. Somewhere, I'm guessing, Nolan decided that Wayne would retire and the ending would be that the mantle would be passed on. Having someone pick up the mantle, would mean that some 'new' character would have to be given a lot of screen time and justifications for getting the cape and cowl. From what I saw in TDKR, I never had any connection to Blake's character or saw why he earned it. I didn't get the same feeling, compared to Bruce's journey in BB, that there was anything special about Blake.
In my opinion, they 'hot shotted' or 'fast tracked' Blake. I've seen it tons of times in comics where they want to establish a character by bringing up some faux past connection, which is almost as bad as when they said The Joker killed Wayne's parents in Batman 89. Perhaps if he had been throughout the trilogy, or written differently is a lot of 'ifs and buts". I"ve got nothing against JGL, or his acting or even Blake himself had I just believed in what I was seeing or perhaps if "I felt it in my bones". Till the day I die, I'll never understand how the guy that was credited (of faulted) for bringing realism to the superhero genre could have a scene where Blake knows who Bruce is from just looking at him and being a kindred spirit.


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Old 07-10-2013, 05:54 PM   #47
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

Blake is an interesting concept. Nolan handled the character exactly how I had wanted; if he went that route of having Bruce pass the mantle down to someone. I kind of wish he stayed a prominent character but in the background and then we find out he will step up to take the mantle of the Batman.

With that being said, Blake is probably my least favorite main character in the entire trilogy, yet his scene where he tells Bruce he knows he was Batman still chokes me up, lol. Funny how that is, eh?

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Old 07-10-2013, 07:37 PM   #48
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Yeah what is more surprising is not that Blake figured out Wayne was Batman but that nobody else managed to figure it out, that was a bigger suspension of disbelief yet one, little old cop, figures out his secret identity AND THEN EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MIND!!

Pretty much it seems to me the love or hate of TDKR pretty much revolves around liking or disliking Blake, he seems to be the crux of the film that sends it either way.

Like you however i thought JGL was fantastic in the role and love the way he "acted" as Robin throughout in front of your eyes without realising it or being called it until the last few scenes
I love how Blake is doing those Robin things throughout the film - from doing detective work down to just being an optimist and hopeful presence.

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:32 PM   #49
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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I love how Blake is doing those Robin things throughout the film - from doing detective work down to just being an optimist and hopeful presence.
Plus finding out Batman's identity (Tim).

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Old 07-10-2013, 08:41 PM   #50
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Default Re: Colman Reese vs. John Blake

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Plus finding out Batman's identity (Tim).
I like how that unfolded. You have an orphan who has a similar background to Bruce. Both have a deep-seated anger. Blake senses that there's more to Bruce than the millionaire playboy facade. He gets a feeling that it's just a cover for who Bruce really is. He starts paying attention to the news. He follows up on his gut feelings. He begins to fit the pieces of the puzzle together with 99% certainty.

Then, he takes a risk to directly call Bruce out on it. The emotional connection between them in that scene, and how Blake conveyed it, sold me on the character.

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