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Old 07-15-2013, 12:21 PM   #101
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ I feel like that person would be too closed-minded to appreciate TA, and would point out only its flaws, real or perceived.
We're all kind of guilty of that. I'm one of those people that freaked out over the Iron Man 3 twist. It ruined the rest of the experience for me because I was too upset to give the rest a chance. I'm sure it's a great movie, but I got turned off over something that I probably shouldn't have.

In regard to MoS sequels, every sequel needs to focus on it's core characters first, but I don't see a reason why including shared universe elements would hinder it. There are a lot of movies that are bad without those additional elements. This also potentially gives us a Superman series and a Justice League series. I'm perfectly fine with seeing my favorite character more often.

I will say this, if MoS came out before Reynolds' Green Lantern movie then Green Lantern would have turned out better because of the influence that the MoS universe would have had on it. Just my two cents.

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #102
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The Avengers and MOS are both awesome. We are lucky to be getting so many great superhero movies now.

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:28 PM   #103
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The Avengers and MOS are both awesome. We are lucky to be getting so many great superhero movies now.
So freakin' true.

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:38 PM   #104
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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The Avengers and MOS are both awesome. We are lucky to be getting so many great superhero movies now.

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:41 PM   #105
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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The Avengers and MOS are both awesome. We are lucky to be getting so many great superhero movies now.

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:43 PM   #106
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

TA plot is relatively simple. You have so much going in that film that having a really elaborate and complex plot would be a bridge too far. The plot was simple, but also effective (Star Wars and Indiana Jones both had simple plots, but they were still great films). The best thing in TA was the character interactions (how these very different people played off each other). The acting was great all around and the action was fantastic. Also, Tom Hiddleston's Loki was a joy to watch (he was loving every second of that role). MOS is also great, but in different ways (though the character interactions/action was also great in MOS).

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:48 PM   #107
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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We're all kind of guilty of that. I'm one of those people that freaked out over the Iron Man 3 twist. It ruined the rest of the experience for me because I was too upset to give the rest a chance. I'm sure it's a great movie, but I got turned off over something that I probably shouldn't have.

In regard to MoS sequels, every sequel needs to focus on it's core characters first, but I don't see a reason why including shared universe elements would hinder it. There are a lot of movies that are bad without those additional elements. This also potentially gives us a Superman series and a Justice League series. I'm perfectly fine with seeing my favorite character more often.

I will say this, if MoS came out before Reynolds' Green Lantern movie then Green Lantern would have turned out better because of the influence that the MoS universe would have had on it. Just my two cents.
I absolutely WANT Mos3 to be a shared universe film. Not a Justice League film, but maybe with some cameos from other characters here and there. I don't want it to feel like it was designed to mainly set up JLA, or even feel like a JLA-lite film. I want it to be its own film.
I even wouldn't mind having Wonder Woman in it somewhere.

Just so the scale is big enough that it's pretty much a Superman story, but small enough to not be Justice League0lite.

I want World's Finest to be the film that ESTABLISHES that shared universe.
Imagine how much better Iron Man 2 would be if it didn't have to lead up into the Avengers. By splitting MOS2 and the "lead in" movie into two separate films, one is free to just be a good sequel, while the other is free to just be a good film.

Furthermore, Batman would be a liability in MOS3, being human and whatnot. He would have to play an advisory role at most.

The thing is, if MOS3 follows WF, it can take elements and themes FROM MOS2 AND WF, creating an interesting mix. The comic bookish whimsy of Superman/Batman, and the serious "real-world" approach of MOS2.

That to me, would be the definitive combination, taking everything fantastical from comics and bringing it to life, but with realistic characters and a realistic Earth environment. I see no reason why MOS shouldn't try to CAREFULLY and thoughtfully expand its horizons, and I'm glad that Zack's open to the idea of a bigger world.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:08 PM   #108
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I absolutely WANT Mos3 to be a shared universe film. Not a Justice League film, but maybe with some cameos from other characters here and there. I don't want it to feel like it was designed to mainly set up JLA, or even feel like a JLA-lite film. I want it to be its own film.
I even wouldn't mind having Wonder Woman in it somewhere.

Just so the scale is big enough that it's pretty much a Superman story, but small enough to not be Justice League0lite.

I want World's Finest to be the film that ESTABLISHES that shared universe.
Imagine how much better Iron Man 2 would be if it didn't have to lead up into the Avengers. By splitting MOS2 and the "lead in" movie into two separate films, one is free to just be a good sequel, while the other is free to just be a good film.

Furthermore, Batman would be a liability in MOS3, being human and whatnot. He would have to play an advisory role at most.

The thing is, if MOS3 follows WF, it can take elements and themes FROM MOS2 AND WF, creating an interesting mix. The comic bookish whimsy of Superman/Batman, and the serious "real-world" approach of MOS2.

That to me, would be the definitive combination, taking everything fantastical from comics and bringing it to life, but with realistic characters and a realistic Earth environment. I see no reason why MOS shouldn't try to CAREFULLY and thoughtfully expand its horizons, and I'm glad that Zack's open to the idea of a bigger world.
I agree for the most part, but I still don't think that Iron Man 2 failed because of the shared universe elements. The Avengers was pretty much Thor 2 over Iron Man 3/Cap 2/Hulk 2.

For MoS 2, I'd like to see at least one shared universe cameo. I don't care if it's Batman, Flash, Martian Manhunter or even Cyborg. There are ways of writing these characters in to actually bring something to the story than simply be thrown in to progress the universe.

I'm going to get blasted for this, but... I think that the TV show Smallville did a great job of introducing the Martian Manhunter as a Superman supporting character. It helped grow his personal universe and add more to the story of his heritage. This is a chacter that could have previously encountered kryptonians, thanogarians, Darkseid, Brainiac, Green Lanterns, world engines, Phantom Zones, etc. I feel like he's the best option for MoS 2.

For MoS 3, I simply agree.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:20 PM   #109
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^ Me too. I wouldn't mind it if it were "someone in disguise." This could be mentioned in the Justice League movie. Just so it doesn't BRING me out of the narrative. The key word subtle. It shouldn't spell out the set-up, but be a logical part of Superman's world.

Heck, I wouldn't mind a "Phil Coulson" type character to connect the movies. Just as long as the plot doesn't feel squished to fit in the larger universe.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:33 PM   #110
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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^ Me too. I wouldn't mind it if it were "someone in disguise." This could be mentioned in the Justice League movie. Just so it doesn't BRING me out of the narrative. The key word subtle. It shouldn't spell out the set-up, but be a logical part of Superman's world.

Heck, I wouldn't mind a "Phil Coulson" type character to connect the movies. Just as long as the plot doesn't feel squished to fit in the larger universe.
The beauty is that it doesn't always need to be the same character pulling them together. Marvel used SHIELD as the device to introduce their superheroes to each other. DC could let it happen more naturally. For example, MM could be the link between Superman and GL. Batman could investigate the "mysterious Flash" in Central City. Wonder Woman and Aquaman could be at war. The point is that they could end up meeting through interesting stories than being forced together.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:36 PM   #111
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^ I'd like that to be a "behind-the-scenes" kind of thing. Like if MOS3 happens after WF, I'd want an explanation on why Bruce isn't around. Or something

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:44 PM   #112
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^ I'd like that to be a "behind-the-scenes" kind of thing. Like if MOS3 happens after WF, I'd want an explanation on why Bruce isn't around. Or something
Absolutely. We couldn't have a movie about Batman investigating the Flash, but if we saw an Easter Egg of Flash being up on the Batcomputer just before some (stuff) breaks out in Gotham, then it gets the point across that Batman is aware of him.

To get back on topic, MoS has already started several small instances like this. They just need to keep progressing them in MoS 2, 3, etc.

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Old 07-15-2013, 01:53 PM   #113
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^ Exactly. I like the Wayne Enterprises satellite. It doesn't interrupt the flow of the narrative in any way, it just establishes that yes, Bruce DOES exist within the DC universe.

I feel like MOS2 should cover the bulk of the character development to free the sequels for awesomely plotted movies. I feel like the "villain-dominated" film should be MOS3 this time.

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Old 07-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #114
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I dunno. I'd say that about everything else, but Superman means alot to me.
Hey me too, sometimes I feel like Superman is my religion

But, like ever kind of fanatacism... sometimes you just have to calm down

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It makes for an interesting question. What would Superman's overall arc be?

We know he can't stop famine, drug trade, human trafficking, religious wars, etc, but that doesn't stop him from trying.

Just him existing inside that universe gives the people inspiration and hope.

Perhaps the whole 'mankind acceptance and appreciation' thing started by MOS could run until the end of the third film, where he makes the ultimate sacrifice and in his passing the world recognizes him as a hero, as Superman, and everyone raises flags and wears the 'S' symbol with pride, recognizing it means 'hope'.
I hope that Superman's arc is more about him discovering his principals/what's important to him and what it is he's actually fighting for.

I think an interesting thing to explore in MOS would be 'is it really worth it? am I actually making a difference?'

There's a great bit in one of the early LnC episodes where Luthor is setting up 'tests' for Superman to see what he can handle. And then he just starts staging so many attacks that Superman can't save everyone, and people are suffering because of Luthor's vendetta against him.

It takes Lois to remind him that it's not about what he can't do, or the people he can't get to... it's about the people that he can. And that just by trying, he IS making a difference.

We as human beings are constantly fighting each other, and there are people out there who will never embrace the change that Superman wants to bring about.

He sort of has to accept that it's a constant battle, but one worth fighting for the for as long as it takes, even if we don't thank him for it.

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He's not troubled by his own demons like Batman who just wanted to find peace within, and retired with Selina.
I don't feel like that was Batman's arc in TDK/BB at all.

I just thought that what he set out to do was create a symbol that could be immortalised as something inspirational and have an effect on the spirit of the people of Gotham.

And once he'd done that, he could retire.

By the end of TDK they seemed to have reached the conclusion that Harvey Dent was the symbol that could be immortalised, but they were wrong.

The ending of TDKR was Bruce figuring out that by having 'The Batman' make the ultimate sacrifice, he would be completely immortalised as Gotham's hero/legend. That people would always know that someone had stood up and fought for them, and that would be enough to encourage them not to give up.

At least, that's why I thought he didn't tell anyone about fixing the auto pilot.

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Old 07-15-2013, 02:00 PM   #115
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I agree for the most part, but I still don't think that Iron Man 2 failed because of the shared universe elements. The Avengers was pretty much Thor 2 over Iron Man 3/Cap 2/Hulk 2.

For MoS 2, I'd like to see at least one shared universe cameo. I don't care if it's Batman, Flash, Martian Manhunter or even Cyborg. There are ways of writing these characters in to actually bring something to the story than simply be thrown in to progress the universe.

I'm going to get blasted for this, but... I think that the TV show Smallville did a great job of introducing the Martian Manhunter as a Superman supporting character. It helped grow his personal universe and add more to the story of his heritage. This is a chacter that could have previously encountered kryptonians, thanogarians, Darkseid, Brainiac, Green Lanterns, world engines, Phantom Zones, etc. I feel like he's the best option for MoS 2.

For MoS 3, I simply agree.
Part of me wishes that Batman was established before Superman in MOS's timeline. I would've loved to have seen this piece of dialogue (while working on my own Superman script ).

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Martha: No, Clark. Your suit will not have a mask. I don't want you running around Metropolis like that Bat headcase in Gotham. I don't understand how people can believe he's doing good when all he is doing is causing fear and distrust in Gotham. People need a face to trust, Clark, and as "Clark Kent" you can't do that. But as a symbol with a face...you can be trustworthy and everlasting.
Clark: What symbol?
Martha: Something sanguine and ethereal.
Clark: If I'm going to take on this symbol and reveal my face to everyone, then how can I conceal my identity?
Martha: Hmm, maybe the flying alien symbol won't need a disguise, but we can work something out for Clark Kent.

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Old 07-15-2013, 02:07 PM   #116
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Part of me wishes that Batman was established before Superman in MOS's timeline. I would've loved to have seen this piece of dialogue (while working on my own Superman script ).
I'm one of those people that wanted MoS to take place after TDKR. I thought the timing would have been perfect because there was nothing supernatural to interfere with Batman early years, but it allows Batman to continue progressing into the Batman that we had in the Batman animated series. We also wouldn't continue reteeling the same origin, heh.

Since that's not happening, I got over it. I do agree that Batman having more experience would only help him in protecting a world full of supernatural threats.

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:18 PM   #117
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The trouble is that nuclear bomb threat. Clark would have to be disconnected to not know about it :P

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:26 PM   #118
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The trouble is that nuclear bomb threat. Clark would have to be disconnected to not know about it :P
One of the big headcanons I had watching TDKR in cinema was that Clark possibly saved Batman from the explosion. The autopilot worked, but Bruce put himself in a situation where he couldn't escape without plunging to death. Clark has obviously followed Gotham;s news as it was showcased to the world what the League of Shadows intended to do. Clark realizes that there was footage of a black airship carrying the bomb and was concerned for the pilot's life. Thus, Clark sensed that there was life nearby and sees that the ship is carrying a bomb, and decides to get the pilot out before the bomb detonates.

I would've mindblown within mindblown if Nolan had actually done that.

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:26 PM   #119
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Hey me too, sometimes I feel like Superman is my religion

But, like ever kind of fanatacism... sometimes you just have to calm down



I hope that Superman's arc is more about him discovering his principals/what's important to him and what it is he's actually fighting for.

I think an interesting thing to explore in MOS would be 'is it really worth it? am I actually making a difference?'

There's a great bit in one of the early LnC episodes where Luthor is setting up 'tests' for Superman to see what he can handle. And then he just starts staging so many attacks that Superman can't save everyone, and people are suffering because of Luthor's vendetta against him.

It takes Lois to remind him that it's not about what he can't do, or the people he can't get to... it's about the people that he can. And that just by trying, he IS making a difference.

We as human beings are constantly fighting each other, and there are people out there who will never embrace the change that Superman wants to bring about.

He sort of has to accept that it's a constant battle, but one worth fighting for the for as long as it takes, even if we don't thank him for
I really don't know what the fascination screen writers have with the whole superhero wants to hang up the cape thing. Dark Knight, Spiderman, Iron Man, etc etc. Why does this story always creep in?

Why can't we just have a great superhero story instead of this to annoy fans. For me it is quite irritating and makes the beginning and end of TDKR almost unwatchable for me.

Please Goyer and Snyder don't go there, ever with Supes. After all the tring to discover himself in MoS it surely isn't needed in the sequels. Just have him fight the good fight, be confident in his abilities now that he has had this enormous battle to save earth and move on to the next story fighting Lex.

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:56 PM   #120
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I really don't know what the fascination screen writers have with the whole superhero wants to hang up the cape thing. Dark Knight, Spiderman, Iron Man, etc etc. Why does this story always creep in?

Why can't we just have a great superhero story instead of this to annoy fans. For me it is quite irritating and makes the beginning and end of TDKR almost unwatchable for me.

Please Goyer and Snyder don't go there, ever with Supes. After all the tring to discover himself in MoS it surely isn't needed in the sequels. Just have him fight the good fight, be confident in his abilities now that he has had this enormous battle to save earth and move on to the next story fighting Lex.
Where did I say I wanted to see him hang up his cape, or even want to?

I was talking about the frustrations of accepting his own limitations. Of understanding that he can't save everyone, or be everywhere, but that doesn't mean it's pointless.

One of the hardest things about being the kind of guy Superman is, is that he holds HIMSELF accountable and responsible for so much. He expects more from himself all the time. He hears so many cries for help, and he can't get to all of them... and he has to bare that, with guilt that other men perhaps wouldn't have. He feels all of it.

I find that aspect of him pretty fascinating.

Especially because it DOESN'T STOP HIM. Because he doesn't give up on the good in people, no matter how much he sees of the bad.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*

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Old 07-15-2013, 03:57 PM   #121
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So it's Comic Con next week, hopefully we'll get a sequel announcement

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Old 07-15-2013, 04:08 PM   #122
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Where did I say I wanted to see him hang up his cape, or even want to?

I was talking about the frustrations of accepting his own limitations. Of understanding that he can't save everyone, or be anywhere, but that doesn't mean it's pointless.

One of the hardest things about being the kind of guy Superman is, is that he holds HIMSELF accountable and responsible for so much. He expects more from himself all the time. He hears so many cries for help, and he can't get to all of them... and he has to bare that, with guilt that other men perhaps wouldn't have. He feels all of it.

I find that aspect of him pretty fascinating.

Especially because it DOESN'T STOP HIM. Because he doesn't give up on the good in people, no matter how much he sees of the bad.
This franchise can always end with two words: Gold Kryptonite.

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Old 07-15-2013, 04:36 PM   #123
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This franchise can always end with two words: Gold Kryptonite.
I hope it doesn't.

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I think back to my father. As a farmer, he had a natural understanding for the Earth. I remember him telling me this world is capable of providing for all its creatures. Even now, with so many more people, there exists enough food for everyone.

"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:37 PM   #124
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Default Re: All Things Superman: An Open Discussion (Spoilers) - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 9

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I hope that Superman's arc is more about him discovering his principals/what's important to him and what it is he's actually fighting for.

I think an interesting thing to explore in MOS would be 'is it really worth it? am I actually making a difference?'

There's a great bit in one of the early LnC episodes where Luthor is setting up 'tests' for Superman to see what he can handle. And then he just starts staging so many attacks that Superman can't save everyone, and people are suffering because of Luthor's vendetta against him.

It takes Lois to remind him that it's not about what he can't do, or the people he can't get to... it's about the people that he can. And that just by trying, he IS making a difference.

We as human beings are constantly fighting each other, and there are people out there who will never embrace the change that Superman wants to bring about.

He sort of has to accept that it's a constant battle, but one worth fighting for the for as long as it takes, even if we don't thank him for it.
That's what I'm hoping to see too. They laid down the themes of him guiding humanity and becoming a symbol of hope. Seeing him questioning if this is something that he can really be achieved would be great to see, and him deciding to persevere anyway.

Speaking of that Lois & Clark episode...thank you. I want to see something like that in the sequel, but magnified. Lex setting up tests across the globe to test Superman's powers and to know his limits.

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Originally Posted by hopefuldreamer View Post
I don't feel like that was Batman's arc in TDK/BB at all.

I just thought that what he set out to do was create a symbol that could be immortalised as something inspirational and have an effect on the spirit of the people of Gotham.

And once he'd done that, he could retire.

By the end of TDK they seemed to have reached the conclusion that Harvey Dent was the symbol that could be immortalised, but they were wrong.

The ending of TDKR was Bruce figuring out that by having 'The Batman' make the ultimate sacrifice, he would be completely immortalised as Gotham's hero/legend. That people would always know that someone had stood up and fought for them, and that would be enough to encourage them not to give up.

At least, that's why I thought he didn't tell anyone about fixing the auto pilot.
That was definitely the arc I saw in The Dark Knight Trilogy, him becoming an incorruptible, everlasting symbol, and he achieved that at the end of TDKR.

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Old 07-15-2013, 04:50 PM   #125
TheFlamingCoco
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Originally Posted by The Sage View Post
That's what I'm hoping to see too. They laid down the themes of him guiding humanity and becoming a symbol of hope. Seeing him questioning if this is something that he can really be achieved would be great to see, and him deciding to persevere anyway.

Speaking of that Lois & Clark episode...thank you. I want to see something like that in the sequel, but magnified. Lex setting up tests across the globe to test Superman's powers and to know his limits.



That was definitely the arc I saw in The Dark Knight Trilogy, him becoming an incorruptible, everlasting symbol, and he achieved that at the end of TDKR.
It speaks miles of Nolan as a storyteller that MORE people aren't bothered by his depiction of Batman. For all my nitpics about the stories, they're mostly well told. The poor reboot will have to be both a great movie and a great adaptation to please the GA and fans. That would be a hard feat to reach, especially when the potential has been shown through the recent Arkham games (and TAS before that, but it had limitations due to its audience. Imagine not being able to have any swearing or carnage [sure there are notable episodes, like the "death" of Batgirl in a dream.])

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