The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 28

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is Here

[Loki882]

Originally Posted by Ryu_do_Sen

I'm not authority on anything. I just pointed out something that doesn't work well in any realistically based mainstream movies. Like I said, it's like having a great sad moment and mixing it with a lot of jokes: they just don't mix together. If you like it, that's just your taste and that's fine.



I wasn't talkin' about the post-fight scene ("I'm with you until the end of the line") which was great and I loved that too. I was talking about the final fight scene between the winter soldier and Cap. The final fight scene needed to be more grandiose, longer and more conclusive because the middle fight scene between winter soldier and Cap was interrupted and left unfinished. The final fight scene should have been a showdown, like we see in so many other movies like The Matrix, Empire strikes back, Enter the Dragon and The Raid 1 and 2 - especially the final fight scene in the second one which is awesome -. Instead of a showdown, we get a edited summary of the fight.
Nevertheless, I do give them credit. I think they did a very good job. Like you said, they turned cap into a badass and they explored nicely a lot of things in the movies. But it just isn't great. The showdown was needed and they shouldva known that.

No, you're saying that it doesn't work, but that's merely your opinion. You have no actual concrete evidence to support that, it's your own personal viewpoint, nothing more. And no, the final fight didn't need to be "bigger" It's small scale is what worked about it. And it was conclusive, Cap won (he broke/dislocated WS's arm and then chocked him out). The only reason that WS recovered was because Cap was distracted trying to complete the mission. And it didn't need finality because that wasn't the end of the WS's story.

[iambranded]

Originally Posted by Loki882

No, you're saying that it doesn't work, but that's merely your opinion. You have no actual concrete evidence to support that, it's your own personal viewpoint, nothing more. And no, the final fight didn't need to be "bigger" It's small scale is what worked about it. And it was conclusive, Cap won (he broke/dislocated WS's arm and then chocked him out). The only reason that WS recovered was because Cap was distracted trying to complete the mission. And it didn't need finality because that wasn't the end of the WS's story.

Completely agree........
I wasnt looking for a beat em up drag out ordeal....
The ending is what was expected....someone had to put their fists down....
Its was Cap in the end....did it for his best friend...and only person who was his family after his mom died.....

[marcvader]

I thought TWS was a tightly written and played film. It was as close to perfect a Cap film for me as possible without leading an actual Avengers team consisting of the heavy hitters.

[kguillou]

The final fight worked because it wasnt about "Cap vs Bucky". It was about Cap trying to bring his best friend back and make him remember who he was.

BUT... I will say, eventhough it was a great fight, i still feel like the Cap vs Bucky fight on the street in the middle of the film DEFINITELY could have been longer and more brutal. Ive watched that fight several times now and i keep wanting more out of it. Again, its a great fight but it goes by very quickly. Personally, i think it wouldve been perfect to see Bucky take Steve, Widow and Falcon on all at the same time just to show how unstoppable he is. Sort of like how the Green Ranger took on all 5 power rangers at the same time and wiped the floor with them (i know, odd comparison lol).That wouldve been a great layer to add to the fight.

[Iceman]

I was a bit disappointed in MCU Cap, particularly in Avengers, until TWS where they showed what I was asking for and exactly why Cap is a heavy hitter up there with the big 3 and worthy of leading them all. And finally a great suit, super-agility and combat moves and a great film within which to showcase it all.

[DJ_KiDDvIcIOUs]

Man I can't wait till May

[Gamma Goliath]

Whedon should have used Caps physicality better in Avenvers, but I have no doubt he'll resemble TWS version of him in AoU. Especially since the same choreographer was hired. The way I see it is all being a progression.

[TeeKay]

Read this on facebook...

Ultron be like: ''soon everyone in this world will know how it feels to live in my world...A world without humans...a world without mercy...a world without SHIELD...a world without The Avengers!!!''

[TalismanRing]

Originally Posted by kguillou

The final fight worked because it wasnt about "Cap vs Bucky". It was about Cap trying to bring his best friend back and make him remember who he was.

BUT... I will say, eventhough it was a great fight, i still feel like the Cap vs Bucky fight on the street in the middle of the film DEFINITELY could have been longer and more brutal. Ive watched that fight several times now and i keep wanting more out of it. Again, its a great fight but it goes by very quickly. Personally, i think it wouldve been perfect to see Bucky take Steve, Widow and Falcon on all at the same time just to show how unstoppable he is. Sort of like how the Green Ranger took on all 5 power rangers at the same time and wiped the floor with them (i know, odd comparison lol).That wouldve been a great layer to add to the fight.

We saw WS fight and take down BW and Falcon but that scenario wouldn't work since he isn't stronger or better than Steve. The WS's biggest threat to Steve is that he's Bucky not that he's the WS and that's why he doesn't take him out permenently in the last battle and why he sacrifices himself to try and get him to remember.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by Gamma Goliath

Whedon should have used Caps physicality better in Avenvers, but I have no doubt he'll resemble TWS version of him in AoU. Especially since the same choreographer was hired. The way I see it is all being a progression.

Yep. Whedon did a great job on Avengers and Cap is one aspect that TWS proves can be improved on. I can't imagine Whedon not wanting to carry over and even further improve all the things he sees as done better in TWS. He's a smart guy.

[Ryu_do_Sen]

Originally Posted by Loki882

No, you're saying that it doesn't work, but that's merely your opinion. You have no actual concrete evidence to support that, it's your own personal viewpoint, nothing more. And no, the final fight didn't need to be "bigger" It's small scale is what worked about it. And it was conclusive, Cap won (he broke/dislocated WS's arm and then chocked him out). The only reason that WS recovered was because Cap was distracted trying to complete the mission. And it didn't need finality because that wasn't the end of the WS's story.

So you're gettin teased the whole movie with small fights ( e.g. the chase and the middle fight) between the main hero and the main villain and then you don't get a showdown at the end? How does that make sense?

Originally Posted by TalismanRing

We saw WS fight and take down BW and Falcon but that scenario wouldn't work since he isn't stronger or better than Steve. The WS's biggest threat to Steve is that he's Bucky not that he's the WS and that's why he doesn't take him out permenently in the last battle and why he sacrifices himself to try and get him to remember.

As for WS, we don't know if he is weaker or stronger than Cap. In the middle fight scene, WS abilities seem to be on par with cap's. And then at the end, WS seems to be weaker than Cap. It's just unclear.

And also, Cap's goal is to stop the helicarriers from killin' the potential threats around the world and gettin' WS to remember his identity while WS's main objective is to kill Cap and prevent him from takin' down the helicarriers. These goals from either part are pretty tough to accomplish. So, the final fight should have been tougher, longer and filled with more tension.

Originally Posted by Iceman

Yep. Whedon did a great job on Avengers and Cap is one aspect that TWS proves can be improved on. I can't imagine Whedon not wanting to carry over and even further improve all the things he sees as done better in TWS. He's a smart guy.

Agreed. And I think he will make it even better than the russo's.

[Webfoot Hero]

Originally Posted by Ryu_do_Sen

So you're gettin teased the whole movie with small fights ( e.g. the chase and the middle fight) between the main hero and the main villain and then you don't get a showdown at the end? How does that make sense?



As for WS, we don't know if he is weaker or stronger than Cap. In the middle fight scene, WS abilities seem to be on par with cap's. And then at the end, WS seems to be weaker than Cap. It's just unclear.

And also, Cap's goal is to stop the helicarriers from killin' the potential threats around the world and gettin' WS to remember his identity while WS's main objective is to kill Cap and prevent him from takin' down the helicarriers. These goals from either part are pretty tough to accomplish. So, the final fight should have been tougher, longer and filled with more tension.



Agreed. And I think he will make it even better than the russo's.

You do get a bit of a showdown with CA and WS fighting but it's not what you'd expect in a comic book movie since they didn't end WS' story so soon after reintroducing him. It's also a different type of showdown in that CA stops fighting so he can reach his friend's true self. There just aren't many action movies where the main character stops fighting to reach the bad guy, who happens to be the main character's best friend. You expecting one type of end fight/showdown and not getting what you expected doesn't make the film any less good. From your arguments here, you keep making it seem like your opinion is the one that matters most when it hold no more weight than others who liked the ending.

[marcvader]

This is a cbm forum where my opinion is always right and everyone else's is wrong and irrelevant.

[Ryu_do_Sen]

Originally Posted by Webfoot Hero

You do get a bit of a showdown with CA and WS fighting but it's not what you'd expect in a comic book movie since they didn't end WS' story so soon after reintroducing him. It's also a different type of showdown in that CA stops fighting so he can reach his friend's true self. There just aren't many action movies where the main character stops fighting to reach the bad guy, who happens to be the main character's best friend. You expecting one type of end fight/showdown and not getting what you expected doesn't make the film any less good. From your arguments here, you keep making it seem like your opinion is the one that matters most when it hold no more weight than others who liked the ending.

Dude, I just defend my opinions when I think they're right. I think that there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm open to debating my opinions and to people showin' that I'm wrong. That's why I'm participating in this forum.

Also, I'm not criticizing people who liked the ending. I'm just tryin' to know what they feel about that ending and discussing it: if it makes ou doesn't make sense with the movie, as a whole.

As for your point, I do agree on the whole thing of cap stopping to fight just to reach WS's true self. It does makes sense. But, again, the showdown before that should have been bigger because WS is a formidable foe - as we are led to believe - and Cap knows he has beat him to take down the helicarriers that will kill millions of people around the world - and at the same time rescue him for his own reasons. It's like an impossible task to accomplish. It was just too easy and too fast.

[Dr. Evil]

It seems to me its "Let's Bash Marvel Studios for not having Black Panther" day over at the Black Panther thread.

Sigh...

[MynAmeIsedDie90]

Originally Posted by Ryu_do_Sen

Dude, I just defend my opinions when I think they're right. I think that there's nothing wrong with that. But I'm open to debating my opinions and to people showin' that I'm wrong. That's why I'm participating in this forum.

Also, I'm not criticizing people who liked the ending. I'm just tryin' to know what they feel about that ending and discussing it: if it makes ou doesn't make sense with the movie, as a whole.

As for your point, I do agree on the whole thing of cap stopping to fight just to reach WS's true self. It does makes sense. But, again, the showdown before that should have been bigger because WS is a formidable foe - as we are led to believe - and Cap knows he has beat him to take down the helicarriers that will kill millions of people around the world - and at the same time rescue him for his own reasons. It's like an impossible task to accomplish. It was just too easy and too fast.

I agree that I wanted more out of the Cap and WS fight, but imo, Marvel does not really have amazing climactic 3rd acts. CA:TWS was the best one so far and a step in the right direction.

[Whiskey Tango]

Originally Posted by marcvader

I thought TWS was a tightly written and played film. It was as close to perfect a Cap film for me as possible without leading an actual Avengers team consisting of the heavy hitters.

+1. And it's coming out on disc next week!

[Dr. Evil]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango

+1. And it's coming out on disc next week!

Sadly, without a one shot.

[danistheman12]

maybe it'll have an avengers sneak peek on the blu ray? Ruffalo did say it was coming soon haha

[Ryu_do_Sen]

Originally Posted by MynAmeIsedDie90

I agree that I wanted more out of the Cap and WS fight, but imo, Marvel does not really have amazing climactic 3rd acts. CA:TWS was the best one so far and a step in the right direction.

I agree that Marvel does not really have amazing climactic 3rd acts. For me, the best one so far is from The Avengers. That's one of the reason that it stands out from the other ones.

[TalismanRing]

Originally Posted by Ryu_do_Sen

So you're gettin teased the whole movie with small fights ( e.g. the chase and the middle fight) between the main hero and the main villain and then you don't get a showdown at the end? How does that make sense?

As for WS, we don't know if he is weaker or stronger than Cap. In the middle fight scene, WS abilities seem to be on par with cap's. And then at the end, WS seems to be weaker than Cap. It's just unclear.

And also, Cap's goal is to stop the helicarriers from killin' the potential threats around the world and gettin' WS to remember his identity while WS's main objective is to kill Cap and prevent him from takin' down the helicarriers. These goals from either part are pretty tough to accomplish. So, the final fight should have been tougher, longer and filled with more tension.

WS needs his metal arm and his multiple weapons in order to even be near equal to an unarmed Cap for a couple of minutes during the street fight and that's after he's backed by a small army and knocked Cap out with a missile through a bus. Cap is then off his game when Bucky is revealed. Note, the WS doesn't catch or throw the shield with his regular arm and in the second fight even stabbed and shot multiple times Steve can lift a beam off the WS he can't himself. In the end he only "loses" because he refuses to fight.

Yes, Steve is fighting on two fronts at the end, to take down the carriers and to subdue the WS without killing him but his first priority is to save lives so he can't be playing cat and mouse with Bucky for too long which is why he breaks his arm and chokes him out. He wants to save Bucky but he won't let thousands or millions die for him. He'll sacrifice himself but not others. I think this all plays out wonderfully.

I hope Whedon can do as well with Caps physicality and fight scenes but so far The Avengers has been the weakest of the three Cap appearances in that regard. The Russos like Evans were very interested in exploring and beefing up that aspect as opposed to Whedon who referred to Cap as one of his "punchy, kicky" characters. I also really liked how the Russos did BW's fight scenes - using her intelligence, weapons and fighting moves specific to her strength and skill set instead.

[Quasimod0]

So where do you guys go for your Marvel movie gifs? I'd love to find somewhere that has a ton of em for each movie. Like maybe a dedicated tumblr page or something?

[Gamma Goliath]

Originally Posted by TalismanRing

WS needs his metal arm and his multiple weapons in order to even be near equal to an unarmed Cap for a couple of minutes during the street fight and that's after he's backed by a small army and knocked Cap out with a missile through a bus. Cap is then off his game when Bucky is revealed. Note, the WS doesn't catch or throw the shield with his regular arm and in the second fight even stabbed and shot multiple times Steve can lift a beam off the WS he can't himself. In the end he only "loses" because he refuses to fight.

Yes, Steve is fighting on two fronts at the end, to take down the carriers and to subdue the WS without killing him but his first priority is to save lives so he can't be playing cat and mouse with Bucky for too long which is why he breaks his arm and chokes him out. He wants to save Bucky but he won't let thousands or millions die for him. He'll sacrifice himself but not others. I think this all plays out wonderfully.

I hope Whedon can do as well with Caps physicality and fight scenes but so far The Avengers has been the weakest of the three Cap appearances in that regard. The Russos like Evans were very interested in exploring and beefing up that aspect as opposed to Whedon who referred to Cap as one of his "punchy, kicky" characters. I also really liked how the Russos did BW's fight scenes - using her intelligence, weapons and fighting moves specific to her strength and skill set instead.

The choreographer from TWS is working on AoU so I think everyone is in good hands as far as combat goes.