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Old 07-25-2013, 06:57 AM   #176
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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The reason why Marc Webb didn't give The Lizard a crocodile snout was that he wanted Rhys Ifans to still be able to emote with his face even after the transformation. The reason why the GG costume in SM 1 sucked was that Willem Dafoe is such an expressive actor and the stupid Power Rangers reject costume didn't let him do that (he was creepier without the armor). I agree with DrCosmic that Ultron needs to be able to emote, it will make him a more interesting villain, as well as more menacing.
interresting. for an example they chose the alien look with no eyes to make it even more creepier cause its not showing any expressions at all but is just an evil unstoppable force. i think it worked very well...i mean compared to that child alien in the 4th movie which to me just looked ridiculous. the terminator as well didnt show any expression neither the destroyer and this is more badass imo, except the character is a tragic figure which has to show emotions to make it appealing or so.....now im thinking...emotionless brute force....vin diesel is ultron :-)

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:16 AM   #177
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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I think an AI version of IM's inside-the-helmet-cam would be interesting, the way Ultron analyzes things could be kinda cool. I would dramatically prefer the EQ to the moving mouth, that's for sure.



There is a need. He's a character that needs to emote, and he has a body, and a face. He has to have an emotional effect on the audience and the characters around him. That is dramatically diminished if he is static in a dynamic world. We can tell the emotional storytelling to jump in a lake because we love our comics, sure, but the need is there.
If Ultron's creator has downloaded his personality (or part of it) into the robot, then that could be the voice or manifestation of the AI that we see as a cut away. Then Ultron could keep his classic appearance just as Iron Man does. Otherwise I think Whedon will definitely change Ultron's facial appearance and give him a moving mouth or more human appearance and say that it's Ultron's personality that is more important and that Ultron's essence is preserved even though he might not have the classic look.

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:23 AM   #178
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

The way Pym deals with Ultron in EMH's is the way I'd like to see it done in the movie

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:29 AM   #179
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Red Skull is not returning in C:TWS. It defies any bit of logic presented to us in the MCU so far.
Yeah, and they'll never use Mandarin in the Iron Man movie series.

Remind me: who's Captain America's "Mandarin?" His "Joker?" His "Luthor," or "Magneto?" In 1945, in 1975, in 2013? Who's the guy whose story arc has him returning from the past to haunt Steve Rogers for the rest of his born days? Who's the guy who magically disappeared into the cosmos at the end of CATFA?

Explain how it "defies any bit of logic presented to us in the MCU so far," since, you know, that's *exactly* what happens iconically in the Marvel Universe. And try not to dig up any Hugo Weaving quotes off the Interwebs for me ---- because god knows, *nobody* else can play Red Skull, right?

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Old 07-25-2013, 09:06 AM   #180
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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I think an AI version of IM's inside-the-helmet-cam would be interesting, the way Ultron analyzes things could be kinda cool.
Great idea really! I doesnīt cover it all but it makes up for some of the time. I mean at some point you are going to want to see the outside of him from an Avengerīs perspective

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:26 AM   #181
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

^Thanks. And it'd just be for Ultron's reaction shots. I've seen it done before in AI movies where the AI's analysis as people are speaking is sort of a metaphor for emotions. Thor says the wrong thing 'threat detected' 'probability of personal injury 67% - DIFFUSE THREAT' and then Ultron begins stalling or whatever. With that and the EQ-effect from his mouth and eyes I think we'd have something

You know what I could go for... a mouth and eyes that moved based on nanotech, that deformed in a robotic direct way. I really don't want a mouth with a hinge, that would kill me.

I see it as a grand Chess game for Ultron, but that might just be me.

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Old 07-25-2013, 12:18 PM   #182
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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^Thanks. And it'd just be for Ultron's reaction shots. I've seen it done before in AI movies where the AI's analysis as people are speaking is sort of a metaphor for emotions. Thor says the wrong thing 'threat detected' 'probability of personal injury 67% - DIFFUSE THREAT' and then Ultron begins stalling or whatever. With that and the EQ-effect from his mouth and eyes I think we'd have something

You know what I could go for... a mouth and eyes that moved based on nanotech, that deformed in a robotic direct way. I really don't want a mouth with a hinge, that would kill me.

I see it as a grand Chess game for Ultron, but that might just be me.
Do you mean like when the transformers transform but in nano scale and around the mounth -> somehow deforming and forming making it look like a mouth? Because that would be awesome! How do you get these ideas?

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Old 07-25-2013, 12:40 PM   #183
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From all the talk in this thread about redesigning Ultron because he needs to emote and be able to play off the actors one would no one ever saw Star Wars and the helmeted Darth Vader aka one of the greatest film villains of all time. The never changing expressionless helmet works just fine, stop pretending that it doesn't.

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Old 07-25-2013, 12:45 PM   #184
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON



It just goes along with agreeing with whatever Joss says. I like the guy, I think he's awesome at what he does. But we can have different opinions. I want to see Ultron's distinguishing features. IF they are gonna take away Pym from Ultron, don't take away Ultron's most distinguishing physical features. The only thing that would remain true to the character would be his motives and his name. That's not what I want to see.

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Old 07-25-2013, 12:58 PM   #185
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Anyone care to discuss Ultrons way of killing the human race? I donīt see how he could accomplish his goal without a nuke or an army, and it will probably not be an army in this movie as well. So what could he possibly be up to?

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:24 PM   #186
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Anyone care to discuss Ultrons way of killing the human race? I donīt see how he could accomplish his goal without a nuke or an army, and it will probably not be an army in this movie as well. So what could he possibly be up to?
In "Ultron Unlimited", which is arguably the best story written about the villain, Ultron massacres an entire European nation via drone assault (tanks and jets) and begins transforming the corpses into robot/zomie hybrids with the goal of creating a "master race" of hybrid organic/synthetic humans. Presumptively, Ultron would use the army to slowly destroy neighboring populations and convert them while spreading across the globe like a plague. This would probably be too dark for Disney though. (Although, this story does focus on Vision, the Scarlet Witch, and Pym).

In the first arc of Mighty Avengers (2007), Ultron attempts to kill the world's population through weather manipulation (natural disasters) created by hacking into Stark statellites meant to stabilize weather patterns. When this plan fails, Ultron begins hacking into nuke bases and launching missiles (ala Skynet in the Terminator series).

In the (terrible) Age of Ultron (2013), Ultron seemingly conquers the planet with an army of robots built in its likeness. How it built such a massive army is not explained.

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:37 PM   #187
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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From all the talk in this thread about redesigning Ultron because he needs to emote and be able to play off the actors one would no one ever saw Star Wars and the helmeted Darth Vader aka one of the greatest film villains of all time. The never changing expressionless helmet works just fine, stop pretending that it doesn't.
Dang. You're right. Both of you.

That said the expressionless helmet doesn't work in say, Power Rangers, and doesn't work particularly well in Spider-Man without him wagging his head about. Vader works mostly because he's a mystery. Same with the Lich King, same with the robot from Real Steel, same with even the new Tonto is expressionless. Their emotions are meant to not bee seen. We never see his origin. We never know where they are emotionally, and that's part of the appeal of the character, and moreover part of the story.

Ultron's emotions are a big part of the character and of the story. Not having any physical evidence of them might still work, but definitely not in the same way Darth Vader's helmet does.

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:39 PM   #188
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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In "Ultron Unlimited", which is arguably the best story written about the villain, Ultron massacres an entire European nation via drone assault (tanks and jets) and begins transforming the corpses into robot/zomie hybrids with the goal of creating a "master race" of hybrid organic/synthetic humans. Presumptively, Ultron would use the army to slowly destroy neighboring populations and convert them while spreading across the globe like a plague. This would probably be too dark for Disney though. (Although, this story does focus on Vision, the Scarlet Witch, and Pym).

In the first arc of Mighty Avengers (2007), Ultron attempts to kill the world's population through weather manipulation (natural disasters) created by hacking into Stark statellites meant to stabilize weather patterns. When this plan fails, Ultron begins hacking into nuke bases and launching missiles (ala Skynet in the Terminator series).

In the (terrible) Age of Ultron (2013), Ultron seemingly conquers the planet with an army of robots built in its likeness. How it built such a massive army is not explained.
The zombie deal sounds like something I would really like!

They can do it. It can always be made less dark. You know the same-principle -but-different-and-less-"scary"-methods concept.

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:45 PM   #189
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Red Skull tried to blow up most of Earth's major cities just to prove he was a god. Loki tried to committ genocide against the Frost Giants in Thor. The Chitauri destroyed a good part of NYC and killed god knows how many people. Marvel asn't been afraid to tackle dark stuff, they just balance it out with humorous moments. Ultron and the movie can be te same way.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:27 PM   #190
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Dang. You're right. Both of you.

That said the expressionless helmet doesn't work in say, Power Rangers, and doesn't work particularly well in Spider-Man without him wagging his head about. Vader works mostly because he's a mystery. Same with the Lich King, same with the robot from Real Steel, same with even the new Tonto is expressionless. Their emotions are meant to not bee seen. We never see his origin. We never know where they are emotionally, and that's part of the appeal of the character, and moreover part of the story.

Ultron's emotions are a big part of the character and of the story. Not having any physical evidence of them might still work, but definitely not in the same way Darth Vader's helmet does.
I understand what you mean, but I think a wholesale redesign or moving facial features ala Transformers would be a mistake. I prefer a simpler approach: strong voice acting and different color lighting for the eyes and mouth dependent upon mood. Camera angles can do a lot as well.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:36 PM   #191
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

I agree with that totally. I think they can do moving facial features in a way unlike transformers without a wholesale redesign, and if they're serious about having him emote in some serious way, I'd prefer them to do so rather than have his mouth moving like a human mouth.

And I guess that's the thing, pulling Ultron into this Uncanny Valley where he doesn't emote like a human being so much.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #192
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yup

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:00 PM   #193
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I don't think you have to have complex movement in every facial feature. WALL-E expressed quite a lot emotion with only eye movement. Of course, that was supplemented with music, inflection, etc.

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:06 PM   #194
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Tom Hardy was able to bring a lot of emotions out of just the looks in his eyes when he played Bane. They could do the same thing with Ultron.

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Old 07-25-2013, 09:18 PM   #195
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Yeah, and they'll never use Mandarin in the Iron Man movie series.

Remind me: who's Captain America's "Mandarin?" His "Joker?" His "Luthor," or "Magneto?" In 1945, in 1975, in 2013? Who's the guy whose story arc has him returning from the past to haunt Steve Rogers for the rest of his born days? Who's the guy who magically disappeared into the cosmos at the end of CATFA?

Explain how it "defies any bit of logic presented to us in the MCU so far," since, you know, that's *exactly* what happens iconically in the Marvel Universe. And try not to dig up any Hugo Weaving quotes off the Interwebs for me ---- because god knows, *nobody* else can play Red Skull, right?
I know you love to over-think everything about the MCU in effort to be the first one to crack the plot nugget about every movie this studio puts out ........ but we last saw of Red Skull he was teleported away by the cube. That's it. End of story.

Nobody else that's been teleported by the cube has had their consciousness transferred, why would the Red Skull's? I hope to God the audience never has to suffer through something like that.

Nothing in any movie to this point shows he somehow was physically sent back to Earth. Unless you're a conspiracy theorist who thinks he was hitchhiking with one of the Chitauri. .... the Cube has been in SHIELD's possession after Howard Stock fished it up off the ocean floor.

I've not said one word about another actor playing him, but nothing in the MCU has been created yet to get him back on Earth. I suspect that's where in the future AIM could come into play creating a cube of their own or getting their hands on the device Jane creates in T:TDW.


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Old 07-25-2013, 09:42 PM   #196
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

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Dang. You're right. Both of you.

That said the expressionless helmet doesn't work in say, Power Rangers, and doesn't work particularly well in Spider-Man without him wagging his head about. Vader works mostly because he's a mystery. Same with the Lich King, same with the robot from Real Steel, same with even the new Tonto is expressionless. Their emotions are meant to not bee seen. We never see his origin. We never know where they are emotionally, and that's part of the appeal of the character, and moreover part of the story.

Ultron's emotions are a big part of the character and of the story. Not having any physical evidence of them might still work, but definitely not in the same way Darth Vader's helmet does.
That's why he's scary though that's the point. Hearing the vocals change due to emotion..hearing emotion coming out of him..you can hear he is experience emotions in his voice. Hearing these these emotions, these human emotions, coming from something complete not human, a robot..that essentially isn't capable of emotion. THAT'S scary.

That's the point, I think the people that don't like the change, like myself, don't want to see physical displays of the emotion he is experiencing, it keeps it mysterious, and scary, especially since it's not a living biological organism, like vader, or the power rangers

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Old 07-25-2013, 09:54 PM   #197
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

Although Ultron is cold and robotic, the jack o'lantern eyes and butterfly mouth make him actually look quite funny and personable. Sometimes i wish marvel went with a heroic Ultron as hinted at in West Coast Avengers #7... or was it #8?

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:26 PM   #198
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So... how do you make it scary and not just silly, that's the question. Robots with emotions is usually played for comedy... and unless the audience 'buys' it, it's going to look mismatched instead of anachronistic...

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Old 07-26-2013, 12:18 AM   #199
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Terminator 2 and Star Trek TNG did it pretty well.

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Old 07-26-2013, 01:53 AM   #200
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Default Re: The Design & Origin of ULTRON

so he starts as an ai ...like hal in a space odyssey 2001 able to control tecnical surroundings and then starts to evolve....







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