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Old 07-21-2013, 10:31 PM   #26
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That's completely the wrong way to think about making a movie. You can't approach it with an "awesome moment" quota that needs to be filled. You have to approach it with the intent of telling the best story possible, with strong themes and characters that work together to build a narrative. When you're doing that with two superheroes the awesome moments just kind of happen naturally.
It is, just that this seems to be how Zack Snyder approaches his movies, the money shots. And in a movie which reintroduces Batman to the GA, I can see him going for the spectacle as a story crutch yet again.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:32 PM   #27
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I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
I mean that critics don't want films to pander to it's audience, they claim to want films to challenge us to use our minds. Surely you see where I'm coming from.
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But the problem is that it wasn't shown during the threat. And there's no reason not to show it during the threat.
Zod made the threat(I'm gonna kill everyone), superman reacted = superman cares. Achievement = unlocked.

Superman fighting zod, no committed facial expressions at the property damage with unconfirmed kills = superman stopped caring?
The one time they cause serious damage superman was pretty much out cold.

Zod about to burn innocent family, superman again with the concern and begging = ignore list.

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No. I'm not implying that forgetting has anything to do with this. I'm saying that in that scene Superman acts like he doesn't care about the destruction going on around him and that's weird and one line of dialogue and one reaction shot would have fixed that.
Remind me, which scene you are referring to, I'm at a loss here.

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The Avengers weren't bad at all. In fact, they acknowledged and reacted to potential civilian casualties, which Superman didn't do at all. And yes, I know, The Avengers had more of an opportunity to save civilians, but my point is that there were moments on screen that showed that they were thinking about it. Even if Superman didn't have the opportunity to personally save innocent people, it's weird that it doesn't seem to be something that's crossing his mind at that moment.

It's not that we forget that he was established as a good guy already. It's that we expect an established good guy to continue to act like a good guy in such a situation. It's really weird when someone established to care about innocent lives doesn't react to dozens of buildings imploding all around him.
Correct me if I'm wrong but superman never once stops acting like a good guy during this film. If that's what you took from this film I think you are being obtuse. Fighting for the sake of the planet in the face of impossible odds is good. What you are doing is taking this level of good and reducing it to garbage in light of what you claim is the level of good needed for superman to satisfy you.

The only thing I said about avengers is that during their ugly fight they were making constant jokes on the radios, even with all the death and destruction around them. I love that, I love how they can do that and fanboys not claim that those heroes and that filmmaker still care.
I then said if superman did such a thing he'd be considered Lucifer. Imagine it right now, if superman was fighting zod punching him through the air(not through buildings) and on the second punch he said something about how much fun he's having....how he's bringing the party to mid town and how he's bringing sexy back.
the devil I tell ya.

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Yes, we are able to remember to earlier in the film and fill in the gaps and assume that he's thinking about that stuff, but the fact that he isn't reacting like a person who cares is a flaw in the filmmaking.
This is why I said you are hinting at things needing to be spelled out. Someone who doesn't care would walk away. Simple.
Someone who does care would do something about it, at the cost of their own life. I think this character cared.

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Superman pleading for people's lives wouldn't have done anything. But it would have been a natural reaction from Superman in that situation and it would have demonstrated to the audience that both Superman and the filmmakers still care.
He pleaded on two entirely separate occasions, his father did too. You want more.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:32 PM   #28
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That's completely the wrong way to think about making a movie. You can't approach it with an "awesome moment" quota that needs to be filled. You have to approach it with the intent of telling the best story possible, with strong themes and characters that work together to build a narrative. When you're doing that with two superheroes the awesome moments just kind of happen naturally.
Too bad the whole movie seems to be centred around Batman and him meeting. Plus with Snyder writing the screenplay expect alot of 'fanboy' moments.

I happen to really like Zack by the way. He blew me away with MOS. However I think we all know how he thinks, and what he likes. Just look at the CGI fighting overload in MOS. That's just what he loves.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:33 PM   #29
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These next two years are going to be hell for some us aren't they?lol

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:34 PM   #30
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From what I've seen, a lot of people saying that this feels rushed.

Simply put, Clark just became Superman at the very end of the film and even if people say that they could simply do a time jump in between MOS and this new film, it robs Superman fans the development that should have been devoted to the character on screen and show how he became established.

And in regards to being comic book nerds, well truth be told, I'm more worried that Snyder and Goyer have more love towards someone like Batman as opposed to someone like Superman.

Snyder may have gone on the record of saying on how Superman is the granddaddy of all superheroes, but considering on how he's pretty much LIED about a lot of things regarding the film, ala, saying that Superman needed more films before teaming up with anyone, etc., I really don't trust him or Goyer to do Superman justice when Batman is involved.

If Batman isn't in the picture, then yeah, I think that they'd do goodness towards Superman, but when Batman is in the picture, everything could go out the window.

And even though "Iron Man 3" takes place after the Avengers, and is influenced by its events, it's still considered the third chapter of the solo Iron Man franchise, ala his own trilogy.

Superman doesn't even have that anymore now that they've potentially wasted it on this.

Until some real hard evidence comes up saying otherwise, it feels like the only real fans that will be rewarded by this experience are Batman fans since I can't see them making Batman look bad.
These are all good possibilities. I often forget how happy I should be that Batman is my favorite superhero, since he has the least likely chances of being screwed up or made to look bad.

Also, Snyder never said that Superman needed more films before teaming up with anyone. He said Superman needed more films before Justice League happens.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:36 PM   #31
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Too bad the whole movie seems to be centred around Batman and him meeting. Plus with Snyder writing the screenplay expect alot of 'fanboy' moments.

I happen to really like Zack by the way. He blew me away with MOS. However I think we all know how he thinks, and what he likes. Just look at the CGI fighting overload in MOS. That's just what he loves.
Impossible to know how anyone thinks.

1. Avengers had alot more cgi fighting than mos. Shall I start making my assumptions now or later about Whedon.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:36 PM   #32
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Goyer only done the story to TDK and TDKR. Which goes a long to peoples theories that he can do story but just cant write as many would say BB is the weakest.
I don't see BB weakest... but TDK was mas favorite... but the three of them were awesomesauce...

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #33
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Impossible to know how anyone thinks.

1. Avengers had alot more cgi fighting than mos. Shall I start making my assumptions now or later about Whedon.
The CGI fights were from other world I didn't feel the CGI... but I guess we have to agree to disagree....

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:38 PM   #34
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These are all good possibilities. I often forget how happy I should be that Batman is my favorite superhero, since he has the least likely chances of being screwed up or made to look bad.

Also, Snyder never said that Superman needed more films before teaming up with anyone. He said Superman needed more films before Justice League happens.
Ah I see; I would have thought though that he meant more solo films because even without an Justice League film, having to share a film with batman isn't going to do the character any favors.

I think it's kind of safe to say that only an handful of topics from MOS will be covered in this new film but not everything that needs to be addressed..things that would have probably been addressed had superman been the only protagonist of his second film/outing.

Hell, even if it was a reversal of the situation, where Superman was being debuted in a Batman film, let alone Batman's second film, batman fans wouldn't have to worry because everyone knows that superman would just be there to make batman look better.

Batman is essentially Superman's kryptonite in any media portrayal simply because the people that seem to be in charge of those productions always tend to have batman supporters at the helm of it.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:42 PM   #35
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Too bad the whole movie seems to be centred around Batman and him meeting.
I'm sorry but I've seen a few comments like this. It simply isn't true. It is speculation based a little on fact. ALL we know is that there will be a Man of Steel 2 with Batman being an "element" of it.

That is it. No more. No less. From the mouth of Snyder himself. That and a little from Goyer about a title "Superman VS Batman". The story could be about Supes and Lex but an aspect of the story involves Batman.

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I happen to really like Zack by the way. He blew me away with MOS. However I think we all know how he thinks, and what he likes. Just look at the CGI fighting overload in MOS. That's just what he loves.
This is true. He seems like a better cinematographer than director.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:45 PM   #36
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I actually clocked the battles in both movies. Avengers battle of New York was about 20+ minutes long. MOS is about 8 minutes. Yet many complain about the latter, and very few the former.

I think it's a testament to the writing, pacing, and directing of TA, that many people were emotionally invested enough to not be paying attention to how insanely long the final battle for TA was.

If MOS was a better constructed movie, people would ignore some of the films more indulgent moments.

And this is a person who puts MOS on a rather high pedestal.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:47 PM   #37
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I'm sorry but I've seen a few comments like this. It simply isn't true. It is speculation based a little on fact. ALL we know is that there will be a Man of Steel 2 with Batman being an "element" of it.

That is it. No more. No less. From the mouth of Snyder himself. That and a little from Goyer about a title "Superman VS Batman". The story could be about Supes and Lex but an aspect of the story involves Batman.



This is true. He seems like a better cinematographer than director.
The way He directed MOS was great.. not perfect.... seeing 300, watchmen gives you an idea on which level snyder is... EPICNESS...

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:48 PM   #38
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The more I think about it, the more it occurs to me that doing Batman for the sequel is entirely Snyder's doing. It just makes too much sense. It even says so in the press release. Zack Snyder is a huge fanboy for this stuff as is David Goyer, much moreso that Christopher Nolan who was not interested in visualizing framing scenes like the comics or adding DCU references, but rather to see everything from his fresh unsullied perspective. Both Snyder and Goyer have said repetitively that Batman is by far their favorite character, and Zack has even said his dream project is to do a Batman film or a Star Wars film. So tell me it wasn't Zack's idea to do this. Y'know he was just geeking out with Goyer when they were brainstorming and he's just like '**** it, let's do Batman'. It would have been the easiest pitch to WB too, as they're scrambling to have a response to the disruption Disney's success with Avengers has done to these films. It all just makes too much sense.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:50 PM   #39
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I actually clocked the battles in both movies. Avengers battle of New York was about 20+ minutes long. MOS is about 8 minutes. Yet many complain about the latter, and very few the former.

I think it's a testament to the writing, pacing, and directing of TA, that many people were emotionally invested enough to not be paying attention to how insanely long the final battle for TA was.

If MOS was a better constructed movie, people would ignore some of the films more indulgent moments.

And this is a person who puts MOS on a rather high pedestal.
Yup, it was the pacing. You went from one big action sequence with Superman taking the World Engine out and the destruction that was being caused to like a two minute break then the big fight with Zod. You barely had a chance to catch your breath. It wasn't the length of the action but the spacing.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:51 PM   #40
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The guy who wrote Sucker Punch and managed to make one of the most beautiful and thoughtful superhero comics ever written sound kind of stupid and juvenile?


Man this movie is gonna blow.
Are you seriously berating a guy because of ONE work? Let's see what he does with comic book material before we start calling him a bad writer.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:51 PM   #41
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I mean that critics don't want films to pander to it's audience, they claim to want films to challenge us to use our minds. Surely you see where I'm coming from.
I understand, but your argument is severely flawed. Showing Superman have an emotional reaction to the destruction his fight with Zod is causing during that fight and showing him at least make an attempt to take the fight out of the city isn't pandering in the slightest, it's maintaining some actual pathos and human emotion during the giant action slugfest that visually reminds people of the largest terrorist attack in US history.

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Zod made the threat(I'm gonna kill everyone), superman reacted = superman cares. Achievement = unlocked.
Yes. That's how pathos in stories works.

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Superman fighting zod, no committed facial expressions at the property damage with unconfirmed kills = superman stopped caring?
It makes it feel that way, yes.

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The one time they cause serious damage superman was pretty much out cold.
I don't remember that being the case at all.

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Zod about to burn innocent family, superman again with the concern and begging = ignore list.
No. The fact that there was a stretch in between where Superman wasn't reacting to what was likely thousands of deaths is what was really goddamn weird and awkward.


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Remind me, which scene you are referring to, I'm at a loss here.
The end fight with Zod, where Superman and Zod are smashing through and toppling over a few different buildings and it hardly seems to phase Superman that he's in a populated city until they crash into the train station.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but superman never once stops acting like a good guy during this film. If that's what you took from this film I think you are being obtuse. Fighting for the sake of the planet in the face of impossible odds is good. What you are doing is taking this level of good and reducing it to garbage in light of what you claim is the level of good needed for superman to satisfy you.
No. I'm not doing that. I'm saying that it makes me really uncomfortable that Superman doesn't make a token attempt to minimize the collateral damage of his fight with Zod or even react to the fact that they're knocking over skyscrapers that people are inside.

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The only thing I said about avengers is that during their ugly fight they were making constant jokes on the radios, even with all the death and destruction around them. I love that, I love how they can do that and fanboys not claim that those heroes and that filmmaker still care.
I then said if superman did such a thing he'd be considered Lucifer. Imagine it right now, if superman was fighting zod punching him through the air(not through buildings) and on the second punch he said something about how much fun he's having....how he's bringing the party to mid town and how he's bringing sexy back.
the devil I tell ya.
They earned the right to make jokes because they also acknowledged the danger that civilians were in and actively tried to rescue them.

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This is why I said you are hinting at things needing to be spelled out.
I am really absolutely not. Wanting Superman to react to the obvious carnage around him isn't wanting things to be spelled out. It's wanting the movie to acknowledge the consequences of what's going on in that scene that people are well aware of because we saw it happen in real life twelve years ago. And, it's wanting some things to stay consistent throughout the film.

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Someone who doesn't care would walk away. Simple.
Someone who does care would do something about it, at the cost of their own life. I think this character cared.
People who care also have emotional reactions to skyscrapers collapsing.

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He pleaded on two entirely separate occasions, his father did too. You want more.
Yes I do. In that scene where people are actually dying by the thousands I want him to display some actual emotions about it.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:52 PM   #42
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I actually clocked the battles in both movies. Avengers battle of New York was about 20+ minutes long. MOS is about 8 minutes. Yet many complain about the latter, and very few the former.

I think it's a testament to the writing, pacing, and directing of TA, that many people were emotionally invested enough to not be paying attention to how insanely long the final battle for TA was.

If MOS was a better constructed movie, people would ignore some of the films more indulgent moments.

And this is a person who puts MOS on a rather high pedestal.
For me was well developed the origin and the story.. not so long and not the same plot as in STM..

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:54 PM   #43
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Are you seriously berating a guy because of ONE work? Let's see what he does with comic book material before we start calling him a bad writer.
Well talking about nosense... juvenile and what? LOL I guess his only way to see a perfect is if the movie has a great dose of humor... well good for you =)

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:54 PM   #44
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Impossible to know how anyone thinks.

1. Avengers had alot more cgi fighting than mos. Shall I start making my assumptions now or later about Whedon.
Of course I'm generalizing, but I do think it's clear just by looking at his entire body of work, that that is what he loves, and spends most of his time on. Look at the way he did the commentary for the Faora/Superman fight on the NY Times site. Avengers shined on it's witty dialogue that is Joss Whedon's schtick. Sure there was alot of great visual effects, and it wasn't a deep film by any means, but it was Whedon's quippy, humorous dialogue, combined with the sense of fun, that made it all work. Writing is Whedon's greatest strength. Snyder absolutely destroys him when it comes to visuals and directing. But ultimately a film falls down on it's writing.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:55 PM   #45
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I have a pile of pistols that needs some people to do high hurdles over. The posters here all look like good candidates.... Or in other words: MAN EVERYBODY HERE IS GOOD AT JUMPING THE GUN!


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Old 07-21-2013, 10:56 PM   #46
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I actually clocked the battles in both movies. Avengers battle of New York was about 20+ minutes long. MOS is about 8 minutes. Yet many complain about the latter, and very few the former.

I think it's a testament to the writing, pacing, and directing of TA, that many people were emotionally invested enough to not be paying attention to how insanely long the final battle for TA was.

If MOS was a better constructed movie, people would ignore some of the films more indulgent moments.

And this is a person who puts MOS on a rather high pedestal.
It isn't so much the length of the fight or the amount of CGI -- Man of Steel's CGI is spectacular, trumps The Avengers IMO -- it's what's being done with the CGI. In that 20 minute sequence, you had the Avengers beating off the aliens, saving civilians, showing teamwork with a couple of good quips thrown in for good measure -- it dovetailed with the movie's tone excellently.

MoS's 8 minute stretch was two superaliens superpunching each other, causing plenty of collateral damage while doing next to zero damage to each other, until Zod's death, that is. The extent of the choreography was superpunching.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:56 PM   #47
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Impossible to know how anyone thinks.

1. Avengers had alot more cgi fighting than mos. Shall I start making my assumptions now or later about Whedon.
It's not about the amount, it's about the focus and presentation. The last 15 minutes of Man of Steel was near non stop CGI action without much else going on. Avengers sprinkled character and pathos throughout their film, they broke up the spectacle with some human emotion.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:58 PM   #48
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I'm sorry but I've seen a few comments like this. It simply isn't true. It is speculation based a little on fact. ALL we know is that there will be a Man of Steel 2 with Batman being an "element" of it.

That is it. No more. No less. From the mouth of Snyder himself. That and a little from Goyer about a title "Superman VS Batman". The story could be about Supes and Lex but an aspect of the story involves Batman.



This is true. He seems like a better cinematographer than director.
We just don't know enough at the moment. But everything we know at this point revolves around Batman. That's how Snyder pitched it. That's what Goyer's talked about. It's Superman meeting Batman. Obviously there will be more. But all the emphasis so far has been on the fact that Batman's in it.

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Old 07-21-2013, 10:59 PM   #49
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Of course I'm generalizing, but I do think it's clear just by looking at his entire body of work, that that is what he loves, and spends most of his time on. Look at the way he did the commentary for the Faora/Superman fight on the NY Times site. Avengers shined on it's witty dialogue that is Joss Whedon's schtick. Sure there was alot of great visual effects, and it wasn't a deep film by any means, but it was Whedon's quippy, humorous dialogue, combined with the sense of fun, that made it all work. Writing is Whedon's greatest strength. Snyder absolutely destroys him when it comes to visuals and directing. But ultimately a film falls down on it's writing.
I have to disagree with you man, I think Zak Snyder is a pretty terrible director. He frames very beautiful shots, but when it comes to conveying information to the audience visually, directing actors, and the thousands of choices about music, pacing, lighting, sound mixing and editing that a director has the responsibility to make, he is extremely sloppy.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:00 PM   #50
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It's not about the amount, it's about the focus and presentation. The last 15 minutes of Man of Steel was near non stop CGI action without much else going on. Avengers sprinkled character and pathos throughout their film, they broke up the spectacle with some human emotion.

There was more than enough human emotion in MOS. That being said, though I actually love, repeat LOVE the pacing of MOS, after the section of the film from the world engine destruction through to the showdown with Zod is very propulsive and the audience is kind of "assaulted" by the action. I can get why some find that off putting.

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