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Old 07-21-2013, 11:02 PM   #51
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I think this is pretty much what we could expect in a confrontation between the two, especially if Kryptonite is introduced into this film.


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Old 07-21-2013, 11:02 PM   #52
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There was more than enough human emotion in MOS. That being said, though I actually love, repeat LOVE the pacing of MOS, after the section of the film from the world engine destruction through to the showdown with Zod is very propulsive and the audience is kind of "assaulted" by the action. I can get why some find that off putting.
But like I said, it's not about amount. All the human emotion in Man of Steel was in one big chuck between the first and second act. The third act was just a constant stream of punching and violence that was only broken up by one scene explaining the macguffin that would save the day and one really bad joke.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:04 PM   #53
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I have to disagree with you man, I think Zak Snyder is a pretty terrible director. He frames very beautiful shots, but when it comes to conveying information to the audience visually, directing actors, and the thousands of choices about music, pacing, lighting, sound mixing and editing that a director has the responsibility to make, he is extremely sloppy.
Just visuals then.

You're right when it comes to all the other elements of direction. However it has to be said that the framing of the visuals in MOS is just of another world. So many just beautiful shots. Joss Whedon I love him, but Serenity and the Avengers are just so mediocre when it comes to visual framing. It's not that it's bad, it's just serviceable I guess, but somewhat bland and unimaginative.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:05 PM   #54
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There was more than enough human emotion in MOS. That being said, though I actually love, repeat LOVE the pacing of MOS, after the section of the film from the world engine destruction through to the showdown with Zod is very propulsive and the audience is kind of "assaulted" by the action. I can get why some find that off putting.
human emotion in avengers... for me the only one (and I didn't buy it) was Coulson's scene... but if you mean human emotion to trash loki like a paper doll, or shwarma thing or funny things... well I just don't agree....

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #55
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Ah I see; I would have thought though that he meant more solo films because even without an Justice League film, having to share a film with batman isn't going to do the character any favors.

I think it's kind of safe to say that only an handful of topics from MOS will be covered in this new film but not everything that needs to be addressed..things that would have probably been addressed had superman been the only protagonist of his second film/outing.

Hell, even if it was a reversal of the situation, where Superman was being debuted in a Batman film, let alone Batman's second film, batman fans wouldn't have to worry because everyone knows that superman would just be there to make batman look better.

Batman is essentially Superman's kryptonite in any media portrayal simply because the people that seem to be in charge of those productions always tend to have batman supporters at the helm of it.
Batman being his Kryptonite is why they brought him in. They didn't want to rehash the last movies by bringing in the real green rock so they brought in the next best thing.

That is what I am mainly worried about. MOS was a setup film. Clark only becomes Superman and gets to the Daily Planet at the end. This Superman is technically almost as new Batman will be. Superman should at least have a proper confrontation with Lex before meeting up with Batman. I have a feeling Lex will most likely be in this one, but I fear that Batman being there plus possibly another Batman villain may take away from Lex overall and from the Superman/Lex Luthor dynamic. They've essentially cut down the potential of Superman and his mythos in MOS 2 to half, with the other half being taken by Batman and his mythos. Sure that you could skip ahead a couple of years/months but as you said, that would feel cheap.

As for Snyder and Goyer having a Batman bias, I trust that Snyder as the director is not going to take that route. Last year at Comic Con, a fan asked him who would win a fight between Batman and Superman. His response:

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Sure that one could argue he was lying or wanted to promote Superman but I see no evidence of that being the case. Goyer and Snyder each respectively don't really have anything at the moment (to my knowledge) that would hint at them preferring Batman over Superman. That may change depending on what we hear in the future.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #56
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Just visuals then.

You're right when it comes to all the other elements of direction. However it has to be said that the framing of the visuals in MOS is just of another world. So many just beautiful shots. Joss Whedon I love him, but Serenity and the Avengers are just so mediocre when it comes to visual framing. It's not that it's bad, it's just serviceable I guess, but somewhat bland and unimaginative.
Again I disagree. The big difference is that Whedon's directing is all about how to best convey information to the audience. This does lead to some very nice shots (I love Loki's reflection on the glass during his conversation with Black Widow, and I love all of the HUD stuff when Iron Man is making his sacrifice play), but you never have things that are pretty for the sake of being pretty. They're pretty because the story needs something pretty right now to move it along.

Snyder's shots are beautiful, and in simple aesthetic terms much more beautiful than anything Whedon has shot, but they also don't mean anything so I find it hard to care. Whedon's cinematography is much more beautiful to me because of what it says about what's happening in the story.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #57
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There was more than enough human emotion in MOS. That being said, though I actually love, repeat LOVE the pacing of MOS, after the section of the film from the world engine destruction through to the showdown with Zod is very propulsive and the audience is kind of "assaulted" by the action. I can get why some find that off putting.
that was the final confrontation of two titans, have you all seen the human faces of fear and suspense? that's a realistic reaction to that not just wow... but the emotion gets at the end of the fight....

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:09 PM   #58
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But like I said, it's not about amount. All the human emotion in Man of Steel was in one big chuck between the first and second act. The third act was just a constant stream of punching and violence that was only broken up by one scene explaining the macguffin that would save the day and one really bad joke.

I am sorry you did not enjoy the thrill ride of seeing a true superpowered brawl brought to life in all it's overwhelming glory. I found it far more satisfying than the ends of: SPIDER-MAN, IRON MAN, IRON MAN 2, THOR (I loved it but, c'mon!!) THE DARK KNIGHT (I actually dig the Bale/Neeson train fight in BB.) CAPTAIN AMERICA, IRON MAN 3 an pretty much any battle from all the FOX X-MEN films combined (When the Blade films have better fights than movies featuring Wolverine something has gone wrong).


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Old 07-21-2013, 11:10 PM   #59
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human emotion in avengers... for me the only one (and I didn't buy it) was Coulson's scene... but if you mean human emotion to trash loki like a paper doll, or shwarma thing or funny things... well I just don't agree....

I was posting about MOS.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:11 PM   #60
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I am sorry you did not enjoy the thrill ride of seeing a true superpowered brawl brought to life in all it's overwhelming glory.
I didn't. I don't go to movies to be on a thrill ride, I go to movies to feel things about being a living human. A big spectacle without emotions and meaning and motivation to ground it is impossible for me to care about, at least by the standards of a film. If I wanted a thrill ride then I'd go to Universal Studios.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:13 PM   #61
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There was a lot of emotion in TA (IM learning about self-sacrifice, Thor struggling to balance his love for Loki with the need to stop him, BW being haunted by her past and her relationship with Hawkeye, Loki was a cauldron of emotions, etc). There was also character and emotions in MOS, ALL THROUGH MOS, not "in a big chunk between the first and second act."

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:14 PM   #62
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I was posting about MOS.
I was refering to the other guy

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:15 PM   #63
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If you don't go to SUPERHERO movies to be on a thrill ride The Question, then I seriously question what you think they are. You keep saying that MOS had no emotion, and you are just as wrong now as you were when you first said it.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:16 PM   #64
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I don't think you should tell anyone they are wrong, no matter how much you disagree with their opinion.
I go to superhero films to see two things, heart and thrills.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #65
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I didn't. I don't go to movies to be on a thrill ride, I go to movies to feel things about being a living human. A big spectacle without emotions and meaning and motivation to ground it is impossible for me to care about, at least by the standards of a film. If I wanted a thrill ride then I'd go to Universal Studios.
Wait... So... A film where Lex and Supes sit down and hash out the differences between their view on the nature of humanity over a couple of frappicinos would be ok for you? Well I am happy that you are on a more evolved plane than the rest of the human race that does enjoy visceral thrills with it's entertainment.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #66
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If you don't go to SUPERHERO movies to be on a thrill ride The Question, then I seriously question what you think they are. You keep saying that MOS had no emotion, and you are just as wrong now as you were when you first said it.
Yea, I agree. I'm not looking for Malick Tree of Life stuff here. I go for the great spectacle that these superhero films provide. And I actually felt MOS had some of the most emotion I have ever seen in a comic book film.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #67
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Again I disagree. The big difference is that Whedon's directing is all about how to best convey information to the audience. This does lead to some very nice shots (I love Loki's reflection on the glass during his conversation with Black Widow, and I love all of the HUD stuff when Iron Man is making his sacrifice play), but you never have things that are pretty for the sake of being pretty. They're pretty because the story needs something pretty right now to move it along.

Snyder's shots are beautiful, and in simple aesthetic terms much more beautiful than anything Whedon has shot, but they also don't mean anything so I find it hard to care. Whedon's cinematography is much more beautiful to me because of what it says about what's happening in the story.
We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

This is what I mean:





I tried to think of the best of Avengers to post for comparison. But I really just can't even think of any.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:18 PM   #68
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True, I overreacted and I apologize. I couldn't disagree with him more, but I shouldn't make such judgments, won't happen again. MOS had heart and thrills, imo.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:19 PM   #69
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I was refering to the other guy
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:22 PM   #70
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True, I overreacted and I apologize. I couldn't disagree with him more, but I shouldn't make such judgments, won't happen again. MOS had heart and thrills, imo.
It's all good.
And yes it did. I would have liked a tad more heart in the film though.
I will say when Kal was fighting the anti gravity beam over the Indian Ocean and Snyder intercut that with Perry trying to get Jenny out of the rubble..man that was one of my favorite scenes in the film. The music really sold that scene along with Fishbure's subtle facial reactions.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:22 PM   #71
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:24 PM   #72
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If you don't go to SUPERHERO movies to be on a thrill ride The Question, then I seriously question what you think they are.
I think they're movies that can be about a lot more than what they're literally about. I think they're epic, mythic archetypes that can speak to universal emotional truths, and while I doubt they'll ever be deep as the likes of 2001: A Space Odyssey Tree of Life, I think they can at least have the emotional depth and resonance of something like the original Star Wars trilogy, which to me is the perfect fun nerdy action movie. I think I go to see them to feel things in a way that only super heroes can make me feel them, and I think that just having the goal of being thrilled by a spectacle is setting the bar pretty low. I want to have an emotional investment in that spectacle, not just see pretty lights.

Basically, I think they're movies, not rides at Universal Studios. And I like it when they're treated like movies and not rides.

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You keep saying that MOS had no emotion, and you are just as wrong now as you were when you first said it.
Care to tell me how I'm wrong?

I mean, sure, in the first half or so of the film it made attempts at being very emotional, but it was very rushed and kind of sloppy with it. And even then, accepting that, all of that was absent in the long as hell action packed third act full of drawn out fetishized action with no real point.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:24 PM   #73
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Every scene with Russell Crowe was full of emotion. Lara standing alone as Krypton dies around her after losing both her husband and infant son. Faora's reaction to Krypton's destruction and Zod silently consoling her. Zod anguish at the destruction of the codex, Superman's agony after having to kill Zod, etc. There was plenty of emotion in the film.

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:25 PM   #74
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Has anyone seen a shady guy around here trying to get my goat?

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Old 07-21-2013, 11:26 PM   #75
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Every scene with Russell Crowe was full of emotion. Lara standing alone as Krypton dies around her after losing both her husband and infant son. Faora's reaction to Krypton's destruction and Zod silently consoling her. Zod anguish at the destruction of the codex, Superman's agony after having to kill Zod, etc. There was plenty of emotion in the film.
Young Clark at the end with the cape

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