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View Poll Results: Could a new Batman possibly beat "The Man of Steel" in a fight?
Yes, Batman has the resources to beat Superman. 52 35.37%
No, Batman wouldn't stand a chance agaisnt the current Man of Steel. 95 64.63%
Voters: 147. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:47 AM   #476
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Meh. So what? Until he says different, I'm gonna go with what he said.
So you/we can hardly know without a shadow of a doubt his statements up to now are wholly factual, given precedence of his outright lies. Citing his affirmation is easily dismissible.

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Old 07-30-2014, 02:28 AM   #477
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Well IM was boosted up to 400% and Thor wasn't going all out. He was clearly stronger though. Tanking repulsor blasts to the face from point blank range. Getting slammed into a cliff face at 500mph without a scratch etc.

The stupid part of that scene was when Cap turned up.
I'm not even a Thor fan like that, but I thought he got the short end of the stick a few times throughout the movie, all for laughs basically. The strongest Avenger, in theory, gets knocked out of the frame twice just for kicks?

But especially the fight scene with IM, even with his suit absorbing energy, I thought it was ridiculous that he could stand there with Thor for any length of time. Although right before Cap shows up, Thor started whupping his ass something proper, as it should be.

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Unfortunately that is often what is done in the comics, including the much loved Dark Knight Returns. And it is exactly the kind of crappy writing I am hoping Snyder and Terrio are above. I'd like to say I can't see them actually going that route, but it's used far too often in the source material for comfort. In reality (you know what I mean) if Superman wants to beat Batman, he does. End of story. But he will be holding back and he can be surprised. We shall see how this goes.
I only ever accepted that scenario in DKR because, at least to my knowledge, that was the first time Batman had the whole thing planned out to that degree. Although it would be farfetched that everything went exactly to his plan that way, in the context of that story it worked. As you said, it's become nothing but cliche' ever since.

Seeing as how this version of Batman seems to be heavily influenced by DKR, I can see something similar but god I hope not. Especially if we take into consideration just how much ass Superman kicked in MoS (not to mention how much damage he was able to sustain too) I can't fathom how Batman would give him that much trouble, even with kryptonite. But they'll find a way, most likely by painting Clark as a stone cold idiot...

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Old 07-30-2014, 08:34 AM   #478
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Exactly. Everybody's an expert lol. Nobody knows for sure. It's gonna be good though.

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Old 07-30-2014, 08:50 AM   #479
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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He wasn't. lol Not to me at least. Faora was.

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Old 07-30-2014, 10:17 AM   #480
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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So you/we can hardly know without a shadow of a doubt his statements up to now are wholly factual, given precedence of his outright lies. Citing his affirmation is easily dismissible.
Don't really care.

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Old 07-30-2014, 10:56 AM   #481
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

I fear they are going to make Superman look lame like in TDKR. I like most Superman fans hated TDKR.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:01 AM   #482
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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I fear they are going to make Superman look lame like in TDKR. I like most Superman fans hated TDKR.
Probably because it was an Elseworld BATMAN story that basically USED Superman to get the point across for Batman to enter the age of the more feared crusader that's about as badass as badass can get.

This may be TDKR's Batman in BvS. But make no mistake about it: this will be Zack Snyder's Man of Steel Superman we're talking about. Lets find out in 2016, but this Supes is no pushover. This is still Superman's world. KAL'S UNIVERSE. I'm confident Snyder will do Big Blue Justice....as he will Bats.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:39 AM   #483
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Probably because it was an Elseworld BATMAN story that basically USED Superman to get the point across for Batman to enter the age of the more feared crusader that's about as badass as badass can get.

This may be TDKR's Batman in BvS. But make no mistake about it: this will be Zack Snyder's Man of Steel Superman we're talking about. Lets find out in 2016, but this Supes is no pushover. This is still Superman's world. KAL'S UNIVERSE. I'm confident Snyder will do Big Blue Justice....as he will Bats.
Precisely. I'm a big fan of both characters and I still love TDKR as a great Batman story. It is a story from Batman's perspective and should not be taken as an insult to Superman. It is not supposed to be some defining characterization of Superman. It is a version of the character used to advance a story about Batman. I have read Superman stories that portray Bruce as an unhinged sociopath in order to heighten the contrast between the two.

However, I understand why it drives other Superman fans mad though, because so many obnoxious Superman critics or Batman fanboys have tried to use the story as proof that Superman is a lame tool of a Boy Scout while being completely ignorant of both your and my points, Tra-El.

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Old 07-30-2014, 11:47 AM   #484
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

Even in the Avengers there is no REAL leader. Everything is situational. They are not going to let Superman be the hear all be all because he wasn't in the comics. I just have always found it intriging that Batman whooped Kal-El. It's a defining time in comic book history. Just like Bane breaking Batmans back.

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Old 07-30-2014, 01:55 PM   #485
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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It is obvious that Batman will have little green advantage.
What's money going to do to Superman? He's incorruptible.

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Old 08-01-2014, 12:17 PM   #486
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

i cant imagine batman will stand against superman, dont know the comics, but even there, theres noway

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Old 08-01-2014, 03:16 PM   #487
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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i cant imagine batman will stand against superman, dont know the comics, but even there, theres noway
Well, there's your problem. It requires you to exercise your imagination to see that there are indeed ways Batman could beat Superman. I just don't believe we'll see a clear winner in any fight between them in this movie regardless.

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Old 08-01-2014, 03:21 PM   #488
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

There should be an option 'Batman shouldn't, but he has."

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Old 08-02-2014, 02:48 AM   #489
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Well, there's your problem. It requires you to exercise your imagination to see that there are indeed ways Batman could beat Superman. I just don't believe we'll see a clear winner in any fight between them in this movie regardless.
Agreed!

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Old 08-02-2014, 03:16 AM   #490
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I find it rather puzzling when people make definitive statements such as "If Superman wanted to squish Batman, he could in a split second." Or just in general stating how laughable it is for Batman to go up against Superman.

On the most basic level, these are fictional characters. Their abilities and power level can be adjusted to whatever the writer pleases, without drastically altering the core of the character.

Therefore, why is it that we can give Superman his incredible strength, super-speed, invincibility, etc etc and power him up to unimaginable levels, and it's fine.

But give Batman some good ol plot armor, like TDKR, and everyone loses their minds about how unrealistic it is, or how it would never actually happen like that (hint: None of this would ever actually happen), or "Bat-god".

Doesn't make sense to me...one character can be given insanely powerful abilities, with no limit, and it's absolutely fine, but give his opponent elements that make it a fair fight, and suddenly we lose all sense of fantasy?

Point is...I don't agree with statements such as "A fight would never happen; Superman would turn Batman into mush in a second" because it's limiting the imagination and creativity. If we can make up a character who can fly, is super-fast, super-strong, etc, we can also make a character who finds a way to put up a fight against him. This is why I appreciate the Batman vs Superman fight in TDKR. Miller had the balls to make them fight, rather than be a "It could never happen" person devoid of creativity. The whole damn thing is a fantasy, after all.

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Old 08-02-2014, 03:25 AM   #491
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I find it rather puzzling when people make definitive statements such as "If Superman wanted to squish Batman, he could in a split second." Or just in general stating how laughable it is for Batman to go up against Superman.

On the most basic level, these are fictional characters. Their abilities and power level can be adjusted to whatever the writer pleases, without drastically altering the core of the character.

Therefore, why is it that we can give Superman his incredible strength, super-speed, invincibility, etc etc and power him up to unimaginable levels, and it's fine.

But give Batman some good ol plot armor, like TDKR, and everyone loses their minds about how unrealistic it is, or how it would never actually happen like that (hint: None of this would ever actually happen), or "Bat-god".

Doesn't make sense to me...one character can be given insanely powerful abilities, with no limit, and it's absolutely fine, but give his opponent elements that make it a fair fight, and suddenly we lose all sense of fantasy?

Point is...I don't agree with statements such as "A fight would never happen; Superman would turn Batman into mush in a second" because it's limiting the imagination and creativity. If we can make up a character who can fly, is super-fast, super-strong, etc, we can also make a character who finds a way to put up a fight against him. This is why I appreciate the Batman vs Superman fight in TDKR. Miller had the balls to make them fight, rather than be a "It could never happen" person devoid of creativity. The whole damn thing is a fantasy, after all.
Exactly. It's one reason I find the ubiquitous "Who would win in a fight between HERO X and HERO Y'' debates silly. my answer is always "As these are fictional characters, who wins is up to the writer of the story."

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Old 08-02-2014, 04:36 AM   #492
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Oh, I think Batman could win against Superman. But not in the way it's often depicted. I still think the Red Son fight was the most plausible and well executed scenario for Batman beating, well, getting close to beating Superman. He got him underground and away from the sun, he negated his powers with red sun radiation, and then commenced to beat the **** out of him.

Batman should never fight a Superman, who still has access to all his powers, face to face. Even a completely weakened Superman still had the strength to peel Batman out of his armor, but for whatever idiotic reason didn't. But you saw how quickly that helmet was gone in TDKR, when Superman finally felt like he had enough.

I don't mind weaker characters winning against more powerful ones, as long as you come up with a well written and plausible scenario. The TDKR fight, imo, was none of those. One character got gimped, the other character had everything written in his favor.

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Old 08-02-2014, 05:15 AM   #493
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Id like Bats and Supes to fight thrice in the movie

In the First Fight Bats puts up a very good fight but looses.He realizes Superman is not just very Powerful but skilled as well-Supes been training since Zod.So Bats is forced to retreat

In the 2nd Fight Bats is far better prepared and actually stalemates Supes. Fight is interrupted though

In the 3rd and Final fight Bats shows some uber Batgod planning and Dominates the fight.Superman is going to lose but is able to talk Bats down before he deals the decisive blow.ITs very clear that Bats would have won the final fight had it not been for Superman talking.

So Bats technically wins but Superman gets to be right
I like this

In the First Fight Bats cld trap Superman in a room with Kryptonian Atmosphere and battles him in that room. Supes wins this fight.

To prepare for the second fight Bats comes wearing an armor made of Kryptonian metal stolen from Lex. Bats also steals some K-energy sources(Energy made from kryptonian atmosphere).

In the 2nd fight,Bats fights Supes using K-energy swords and his new armor.He is backed up with an army of Bat drones armed with K-energy missiles.This fight ends in a stalemate


Lex upgrades K-energy into Kryptonite.Simply being in the presence of Kryptonite weakens Superman drastically.

In the third fight Bats fights Supes with a new bulky armor suit(TDKR suit),that can radiate Kryptonite and fire Kryptonite beams.He beats Superman rather easily with this one but Supes manages to talk him down

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Old 08-02-2014, 06:22 AM   #494
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Oh, I think Batman could win against Superman. But not in the way it's often depicted. I still think the Red Son fight was the most plausible and well executed scenario for Batman beating, well, getting close to beating Superman. He got him underground and away from the sun, he negated his powers with red sun radiation, and then commenced to beat the **** out of him.
I really like that confrontation. One of the best Batman v Superman moments, regardless of what universe it takes place in. Because it shows Batman has to plan all scenarios out to compete, (he even factors in defeat by swallowing the bomb, refusing to be turned into a mindless pawn) and everything has to fall into place. He can improvise, sure, but when he's in a controlled environment/scenario, Batman is very hard to beat. He had Superman on his knees in Red Son. It took a third party to save him.

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Old 08-04-2014, 04:06 AM   #495
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Oh, I think Batman could win against Superman. But not in the way it's often depicted. I still think the Red Son fight was the most plausible and well executed scenario for Batman beating, well, getting close to beating Superman. He got him underground and away from the sun, he negated his powers with red sun radiation, and then commenced to beat the **** out of him.

Batman should never fight a Superman, who still has access to all his powers, face to face. Even a completely weakened Superman still had the strength to peel Batman out of his armor, but for whatever idiotic reason didn't. But you saw how quickly that helmet was gone in TDKR, when Superman finally felt like he had enough.

I don't mind weaker characters winning against more powerful ones, as long as you come up with a well written and plausible scenario. The TDKR fight, imo, was none of those. One character got gimped, the other character had everything written in his favor.

Totally agree with you on the Red Son scenario.

Disagree with you on TDKR, but respect your opinion.

I see it like this. Up until the kryptonite arrives, it's not really a fight. All Batman is doing is distracting Superman (who, we must remember has just recovered from being hit by a 20 megaton nuclear weapon). Plus, the whole fight we know Superman's heart isn't in it, for the whole fight, even after being hit with the K, Supes is trying to talk to Bats. That's why Bats has to hit with with the K, before Supes gets pissed, because he knows that if Supes actually wants to take him down, then it's all over.

To be honest, I'm a Superman fan, and I thought Miller wrote it well (well, much, much better than that Poison Ivy crap from Hush ).
When I first read it, back in '87, I was like "NO WAY !" but then I thought about it and came to the conclusion that Superman wasn't trying to win.

The truth is that Superman's biggest weakness in that fight is his reluctance to actually hurt Batman -which is really clear. You know when you read it, he's not really trying. The few blows he does land do Batman tremendous injury. We all know that rather than tear of Bats helmet, he could easily tear off Batman's head !
In fact Batman gets a bunch of cheap shots in while Superman's trying to talk Bats down. Plus, the preparation, that Batman's been preparing for that fight not just for a few weeks but for years "It took years and cost a fortune, luckily I had both."

So in summary, a very weakened Superman who's not even really trying, loses to a Batman, who's been preparing for years and throws an entire arsenal at him, plus the one weapon that can actually harm him.

That I can live with. However, I think that fight would only work in the
context of Miller's story. It would be very different for a Batman and Superman who just met. Also, I agree with everyone who's said that the fan bases have to be kept happy.

And I still don't buy into the Batgod theory. Taking down a weakened Superman, who's not really fighting back, when you've had years to prepare, and have an ace in the hole (because you've studied your opponent and know all his strengths and weaknesses both psychological and physicial) that has a kind of logic to it.

However, fighting Bane, after being physically and mentally exhausted fighting a horde of other bad guys, when you've done no prep, know nothing about your opponent (strenghts or weaknesses) and that opponent is trying to do you serious harm, that's a different proposition IMO. I'm speaking of Knightfall here....the fight against Bane in TDKR was Batman with either a deathwish or being supremely stupid.


As for Red Son though, yeah that was very well done. Overall, one of the best Superman stories, because they manage to change the context but keep true to the character.

cheers.

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Old 08-04-2014, 05:05 AM   #496
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Batman could beat Superman. But honestly, Superman isn't that hard to beat.

No seriously. I know most hardcore Bat fans like to throw around Bats beating Supes as if it's this groundbreaking accomplishment that no one else in the DCU has done, but it really isn't. Superman may be powerful, but a lot of you here make him sound like he's Galactus.

To beat Superman requires two main components: 1) genius-level intellect, 2) wealth (to acquire resources). Case in point: Lex Luthor. I really don't understand how people can dismiss any possibility of Bats winning because "he's a normal guy with toys" when the same can be applied to Lex. If Lex is worthy enough to be Superman's archnemesis, to be the closest villain to killing him (other than Doomsday), why is it a stretch for Bruce to do the same? Especially since Bruce has advantages Lex doesn't: he's a better strategist, he's better at reading people, and he knows Superman from a personal level...he knows him as Clark Kent. Not to mention that Batman has fought Superman villains in the past and vice versa. So if Superman's rogues gallery is worthy enough to both Superman and Batman, why does Batman turn into a squashed bug when next to Superman?

It's really annoying how Batman is the kicking boy of non-superpowered heroes, as if not having powers is this huge deal in superhero comics (Green Lantern, Green Arrow, Atom, Steel, Iron Man, Captain America for most of his history, Daredevil, Black Panther,). It's amazing how people use it to call foul anytime he's fighting anything bigger than him - even when it makes sense - while they turn a blind eye to Hawkeye and Black Panther battling Thanos or Galactus. Batman is also the only one who doesn't count as a superhero cuz no powers, the only one who needs bulky rubber armor cuz no powers, etc.

Also, a lot of the theories here can only operate under the assumption he is an idiot. Generally speaking, Bruce doesn't confront superhumans with physical fist fights. That's not his style. Knowing Bats, he would probably give Clark a reason not to hit him.

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Old 08-04-2014, 05:31 AM   #497
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There are certainly ways to defeat Superman, especially if you have the resources and tactical mind like Batman. The only thing I don't like is when they have Batman pummel Superman, unless it's a scenario like in Red Son. Scenarios like TDKR, or when Superman was under mind control, always rely on him holding back. Even subconsciously, when he's not even in control. He can knock out every thug with a flick of a finger, but when he fights Batman, he can apparently break his ribs, and probably every other bone in his body, and Batman will just keep going. Somehow Superman is unable to just land a tiny hit on the back of Bat's head, to send him into dreamworld.

A smart Batman should never actually confront Superman face to face, unless it's in a controlled environment. Or when he actually takes off the kiddy gloves and decides he needs to blast a Kryptonite missile into Superman's face. A really smart Batman would probably just ambush Superman in his sleep and put some Kryptonite cuffs on him.

But when you put him into armor, and let him give Superman a bloody nose, it often just comes across like a dick measuring contest. "See, Batman is so badass, he can go toe to toe in a fist fight with Superman."

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Old 08-04-2014, 05:35 AM   #498
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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There are certainly ways to defeat Superman, especially if you have the resources and tactical mind like Batman. The only thing I don't like is when they have Batman pummel Superman, unless it's a scenario like in Red Son. Scenarios like TDKR, or when Superman was under mind control, always rely on him holding back. Even subconsciously, when he's not even in control. He can knock out every thug with a flick of a finger, but when he fights Batman, he can apparently break his ribs, and probably every other bone in his body, and Batman will just keep going. Somehow Superman is unable to just land a tiny hit on the back of Bat's head, to send him into dreamworld.

A smart Batman should never actually confront Superman face to face, unless it's in a controlled environment. Or when he actually takes off the kiddy gloves and decides he needs to blast a Kryptonite missile into Superman's face. A really smart Batman would probably just ambush Superman in his sleep and put some Kryptonite cuffs on him.

But when you put him into armor, and let him give Superman a bloody nose, it often just comes across like a dick measuring contest. "See, Batman is so badass, he can go toe to toe in a fist fight with Superman."
Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

It's not having stories where Batman could beat Superman. It's the idiotic way most of those stories have been done, indeed in a genital measuring way often, and not well thought out in the least, Miller's included.

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Old 08-04-2014, 07:08 AM   #499
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I'm as much a fan of Batman as I am Superman, but I think we all have to concede that - within the nature of the DC universe at least - concessions have to be made in order for Batman to beat Superman.

A fully powered Superman is virtually invincible. He's hugely intelligent, has super speed and super strength, and all the other powers you all know of. Batman may be the world's greatest detective, disciplined in many fighting skills and a master of stealth, but how does that pose any threat to a god-like being who can flick his head off with one finger before Batman's heart manages a second beat? Who can incinerate Batman's kryptonite ring from miles away before he's anywhere near close enough to use it?

To coin a phrase used by a similar god-like being in Watchmen : "The world's smartest man poses no more threat to me than does it's smartest termite."

So the rules have to be bent slightly. Batman is so popular and such an iconic character that writers can't have Superman beat him every time. That inevitably means bringing in Kryptonite, or using some other plot device to bring Superman down to a human or nearly human level of strength and endurance. How they dress this up and package it into the story greatly influences how successful that is. I feel Miller managed a very decent job of it with TDKR.

You could also argue that Superman has never really went all-out against Batman - he's always held back. And that applies not just to Batman, but many others he's fought. Asides from Doomsday and occasionally Darkseid, there's not many villains that spring to mind who he's went 100% at in terms of using his power.

I'd really like Snyder to find a way to have them square off without resorting to the predictable use of kryptonite or depowering Superman, but it's going to have to take some clever writing.

We are of course assuming that Batman will stand a chance against Superman in the new movie. It would be a bit of a shock if Snyder just has Superman pummel Batman

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Old 08-04-2014, 07:25 AM   #500
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Originally Posted by Bathead View Post
Exactly. It's one reason I find the ubiquitous "Who would win in a fight between HERO X and HERO Y'' debates silly. my answer is always "As these are fictional characters, who wins is up to the writer of the story."
And that sometimes doesn't make for a good story.

Black Panther beating Silver Surfer is just... stupid. And it made for a terrible story.

Plot armour is fine, but when it turns into "plot induced stupidity" it ruins the story.

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