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View Poll Results: Could a new Batman possibly beat "The Man of Steel" in a fight?
Yes, Batman has the resources to beat Superman. 52 35.37%
No, Batman wouldn't stand a chance agaisnt the current Man of Steel. 95 64.63%
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:35 AM   #151
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

I just watched TDKR Part 2 again last night and I gotta say after watching that I'm all for this to happen if the fight is similar to that one. Granted, there's bound to be shenanigans because Supes could end Batman if he really wanted to but I imagine Supes would be holding back during the fight, and that is going to be Bat's main advantage.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:36 AM   #152
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Are you arguing to have Kryptonite because it makes the story better or because it's a thing that's always been there?
I don't know if it will make the story better. That's up to the writers. I'm in the same boat as you. I believe it is the human struggle that usually make for the most engaging Superman stories.

But it's still something that I believe is essential to both the character and his mythology and it's something that needs to be established at some point. And yes, that's largely because it has always been there. It is one of the things that definethe character. Superman. S shield. Red Cape. He could fly. He's super strong. Mild mannered Clark Kent by day. Saves Lois Lane. His weakness is kryptonite.

You can minimize it's use in the films all you want. Make it clear that it's EXTREMELY rare to find, or have Lex (or Bruce in this case who knows) be the ONLY person on planet earth that was able to find it. That way you eliminate the chances of it coming up again and again and used as a crutch. But it must be there.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:37 AM   #153
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Oh, yeah, these make Batman sound annoying instead of awesome
Sarcasm?

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:45 AM   #154
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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I just watched TDKR Part 2 again last night and I gotta say after watching that I'm all for this to happen if the fight is similar to that one. Granted, there's bound to be shenanigans because Supes could end Batman if he really wanted to but I imagine Supes would be holding back during the fight, and that is going to be Bat's main advantage.
Even if he'd hold back, it shouldn't be an advantage for Batman. He'd have to pull his punches so much, that he actually hits not even as hard as someone like Bane. And that's why I always found Batman vs Superman scenarios completely moronic. All Superman needs is one hit, not even hard enough to break anything, but just enough so Batman will have to try and catch his breath for a couple minutes. The only way you can have a Batman vs Superman fight, is by gimping Superman, and making Batman more than just human. Somehow he gets back up from getting tossed into walls, or dodges hits completely, while Superman, the man faster than a speeding bullet, has trouble to dodge Batarangs.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:51 AM   #155
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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I don't know if it will make the story better. That's up to the writers. I'm in the same boat as you. I believe it is the human struggle that usually make for the most engaging Superman stories.

But it's still something that I believe is essential to both the character and his mythology and it's something that needs to be established at some point. And yes, that's largely because it has always been there. It is one of the things that definethe character. Superman. S shield. Red Cape. He could fly. He's super strong. Mild mannered Clark Kent by day. Saves Lois Lane. His weakness is kryptonite.

You can minimize it's use in the films all you want. Make it clear that it's EXTREMELY rare to find, or have Lex (or Bruce in this case who knows) be the ONLY person on planet earth that was able to find it. That way you eliminate the chances of it coming up again and again and used as a crutch. But it must be there.
The "it's tradition" argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me. The two person love triangle was the exact same thing. It was a thing that had always been there and that people thought was something that defined the character. And then they had Lois find out the secret and the two of them got married and it was awesome.

And when they went back to the two person love triangle Post-Flashpoint it was terrible and still is.

And the two person love triangle is also entirely absent from this version of Superman.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:55 AM   #156
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

Also, I could do without "Superman saves Lois" as well. I prefer when Lois can take care of herself.

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Old 07-25-2013, 11:55 AM   #157
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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Sarcasm?
Not at all, I agree with your point
I hate the "Batman is so awesome he does A, B, C, D.....etc" logic some people throw

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Old 07-25-2013, 12:03 PM   #158
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

The way that I'd like to see their first encounter go down is Batman hits Superman with everything that he has, while Superman does not even attack. Eventually, Superman simply disarms Batman. This would drive Batman into a hunt for a weakness. I'd like to see Batman develop kryptonite because he feels that he needs a contingency plan.

Later on, something like a Justice League: Doom scenario can play out in which kryptonite gets into the hands of the enemy.

This would have to span multiple movies, but I like the way that this would go from subplot in SvB to an eventual JL main plot.

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:18 PM   #159
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Yes I like this idea. I like how they handled it in "World's Finest" from Superman TAS. See here:

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Batman pulling a surprise 'takedown' move on Superman, only for Superman to get up and hit him but not hurt him too much. I'd also like Batman to get the jump on Superman in various ways. I really liked the disappearing trick from TDK trilogy and it would be awesome if Batman can always sneak up on Superman as well as disappear suddenly. He is supposed to be the master of stealth among other things. Batman should have an array of gadgets and tools he can deploy against Superman. I'd like to think that Superman greatly underestimates Batman at first.
Oh god, I hope not. I love the Timm cartoons but they always were awful in portraying Superman. The constantly jobbed him out and god forbid if the enemy had even the smallest shard of Kryptonite Superman would be down. It was especially awful in the first season of Justice League.

Avengers: EMH did a far better job portraying Thor and their other heavy weights than the Justice League cartoon. It was clear Thor was far more powerful than everyone else. Yet, characters like Hawkeye and Captain America still had their moments and clearly deserved to be part of the team.

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #160
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Oh god, I hope not. I love the Timm cartoons but they always were awful in portraying Superman. The constantly jobbed him out and god forbid if the enemy had even the smallest shard of Kryptonite Superman would be down. It was especially awful in the first season of Justice League.

Avengers: EMH did a far better job portraying Thor and their other heavy weights than the Justice League cartoon. It was clear Thor was far more powerful than everyone else. Yet, characters like Hawkeye and Captain America still had their moments and clearly deserved to be part of the team.
I completely agree. That was one of the worst Superman portrayals that I had ever seen. As soon as Batman came around Superman turned into Bizarro. Remember how bad it was handled when Ace from the royal flush gang came around? Superman could punch right through him, but since Batman's in the room Superman has to get beat up first. Talk about not knowing how to use characters...

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Old 07-25-2013, 01:26 PM   #161
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

Honestly I think people really exaggerate how much Superman "jobbed" or whatever the hell they call it in the DCAU cartoons. He was just as competent in a fight as Wonder Woman and J'onn. And the fight with Ace was fine, the two were pretty evenly matched the whole way through.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #162
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

Superman had the most epic battles in DCAU I can't see how anybody could disagree with that and he won nearly all of them. Superman vs Shazam, Superman vs Captain Atom, Superman vs Darksied/ Brainiac it's amazing that anyone could feel a diservice to his power with that on his resume.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #163
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Superman had the most epic battles in DCAU I can't see how anybody could disagree with that and he won nearly all of them. Superman vs Shazam, Superman vs Captain Atom, Superman vs Darksied/ Brainiac it's amazing that anyone could feel a diservice to his power with that on his resume.
It wasn't about his power levels. Even though they seemed inconsistent, I didn't really mind. I just didn't like how dumb he seemed at times. Batman was always written as the voice of reason, simply to add to his character.

A portrayal that I really enjoyed was Superman in Earth One. Beyond the emo stuff, they really displayed that he's more than just a physical threat. All-Star Superman is another one that put his power on display. You would rarely see anything like that when Batman's around though.

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Old 07-25-2013, 02:17 PM   #164
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Superman had the most epic battles in DCAU I can't see how anybody could disagree with that and he won nearly all of them. Superman vs Shazam, Superman vs Captain Atom, Superman vs Darksied/ Brainiac it's amazing that anyone could feel a diservice to his power with that on his resume.
It got better as the show went on. But in the first season Superman was getting KO'ed pretty much every episode. Heck, I even recall him getting KO'ed by a tank.

Then I still have a problem with how they used Kryptonite. A single shard of it would make Superman utterly useless.


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Old 07-25-2013, 03:04 PM   #165
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The "it's tradition" argument doesn't hold a lot of water for me.
The idea of kryptonite goes beyond just mere tradition. The word itself has become apart of our lexicon. You hear the word used in pop songs, movies, and tv shows. You hear it used in sports. You hear it used figuratively, you hear it used literally. It's might not even be beyond your average joe to refer to something - either a weakness or a vice of his perhaps - as his "kryptonite". That's how engrained the concept has become in our everyday life. You have 75 years of history to thank for that.

I don't want to put Superman and Jesus on quite the same pedestal but Superman is about as close to an american born savior figure as there is. At the very least he's become head and shoulders the most mythologically profound. There are just certain inherent truths about the character that are so cemented in the minds of everyone that there's just no point in trying to erase them. Just like everyone knows that Jesus was a carpenter, everyone knows that Superman's weakness is kryptonite. It's that widely known.

You're right, I find Superman's struggle is most interesting at the emotional and spiritual level... not the physical. But physicality is also one of the defining aspects of Superman. His superhuman strength, his ability to fly... most likely these are the things that drew us all to the character as small children to begin with. And seeing him in such a physically weakened state - almost pitiful even - because of his exposure to kryptonite is something that clearly must have left a strong impression on our young minds or else the concept of it wouldn't have endured like it has. And not only that, but doesn't it also serve as something that helps ground the character a bit? I think you'd be surprised at just how less interesting Superman becomes once you rob him of his achilles heel.

I applaud a writer's efforts to try and tell an engaging Superman story without resorting to kryptonite because it means they're probably challenging Superman in other, more spiritually meaningful ways. But every single person that reads a Superman comic, or watches a Superman cartoon, or watches a Superman movie... in the back of their minds is implanted the idea that this guy would go down at any given moment if that shiny green rock were to somehow present itself. It's just an accepted truth at this point.

What you're suggesting is that DC rewrite the mythology so that kryptonite doesn't exist. I'm saying that simply isn't possible. It's too late in that character's history for you to try and ask everyone to forget something so central to Superman's being.

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Old 07-25-2013, 03:30 PM   #166
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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The idea of kryptonite goes beyond just mere tradition. The word itself has become apart of our lexicon. You hear the word used in pop songs, movies, and tv shows. You hear it used in sports. You hear it used figuratively, you hear it used literally. It's might not even be beyond your average joe to refer to something - either a weakness or a vice of his perhaps - as his "kryptonite". That's how engrained the concept has become in our everyday life. You have 75 years of history to thank for that.

I don't want to put Superman and Jesus on quite the same pedestal but Superman is about as close to an american born savior figure as there is. At the very least he's become head and shoulders the most mythologically profound. There are just certain inherent truths about the character that are so cemented in the minds of everyone that there's just no point in trying to erase them. Just like everyone knows that Jesus was a carpenter, everyone knows that Superman's weakness is kryptonite. It's that widely known.
So what? Why does that mean someone writing a Superman story is obligated to include Kryptonite? As I've demonstrated, there have been plenty of great Superman stories without Kryptonite in them at all and no one cared. If you don't include Kryptonite in a Superman movie (which, by the way, already happened with Man of Steel), in what way does that make the story less? In what way is the audience's appreciation of the film enhanced with the inclusion of Kryptonite, even if they find other ways to challenge the character without it?

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You're right, I find Superman's struggle is most interesting at the emotional and spiritual level... not the physical. But physicality is also one of the defining aspects of Superman. His superhuman strength, his ability to fly... most likely these are the things that drew us all to the character as small children to begin with. And seeing him in such a physically weakened state - almost pitiful even - because of his exposure to kryptonite is something that clearly must have left a strong impression on our young minds or else the concept of it wouldn't have endured like it has. And not only that, but doesn't it also serve as something that helps ground the character a bit?
A big part of the concept endured because writers liked having an easy way of writing peril for Superman where they didn't have to think too hard.

And what's wrong with creating physical peril for Superman by having him go up against something that's powerful enough to hurt him? How does that not leave an impression? And why is Kryptonite better?

What leaves a bigger impression, Superman getting sick when someone pulls out a green rock that we all know can make Superman sick for vaguely defined reasons, or Superman coming up to an unknown figure and that person out of nowhere lays the smack down on the most powerful living being on the planet?

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I think you'd be surprised at just how less interesting Superman becomes once you rob him of his achilles heel.
I fail to see how it makes him more interesting. You can accomplish everything Kryptonite accomplishes with more interesting things, with character, with moral dilemmas, with actual well thought out obstacles that Superman can't just punch his way through and can even kill him. Superman is not less interesting without Kryptonite. Superman is less interesting with Kryptonite. I give a little shout for joy in every Superman story that Kryptonite doesn't make an appearance in because it is a destroyer of drama. My favorite thing about Man of Steel is that there was no Kryptonite.

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I applaud a writer's efforts to try and tell an engaging Superman story without resorting to kryptonite because it means they're probably challenging Superman in other, more spiritually meaningful ways. But every single person that reads a Superman comic, or watches a Superman cartoon, or watches a Superman movie... in the back of their minds is implanted the idea that this guy would go down at any given moment if that shiny green rock were to somehow present itself. It's just an accepted truth at this point.
So what? Why does that mean we have to actually use it ever? Let them keep having it in the back of their minds. Not seeing Kryptonite won't ruin the story for them. There are tons of great Superman stories that are universally beloved that don't feature Kryptonite and no one cares.

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What you're suggesting is that DC rewrite the mythology so that kryptonite doesn't exist. I'm saying that simply isn't possible. It's too late in that character's history for you to try and ask everyone to forget something so central to Superman's being.
It isn't rewriting the mythology. It's just choosing not to include Kryptonite in any of the movies. And it's not asking them to forget it, it's simply not using it. They can remember it all they like.

Tell me, what do you think the ramifications will be if the upcoming Superman movies never use Kryptonite? And don't say "it will be sacrilege." What will be the actual problems it will cause? How will it make the movies worse? How will it make people like the movies less?

If it's possible to make a Superman story without Kryptonite, then why not do it? Why would anyone be obligated to do it even if the story doesn't call for it?

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:17 PM   #167
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Not at all, I agree with your point
I hate the "Batman is so awesome he does A, B, C, D.....etc" logic some people throw
Oh, haha, I wasn't sure. Its hard to tell through text at times.

But yes, I really hate the excuse, "BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!" What appeals to me about Batman is that he has no powers, so he has to rely on skill and technology to make a good fight and survive. It seems like the writers and fans want to make him invincible so that he can beat just about anybody.

I love the Batman parodies on How It Should Have Ended.

Superman: "Because you're Batman?"
Batman: "BECAUSE I'M BATMAN!"

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Old 07-25-2013, 06:29 PM   #168
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Oh, haha, I wasn't sure. Its hard to tell through text at times.

But yes, I really hate the excuse, "BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!" What appeals to me about Batman is that he has no powers, so he has to rely on skill and technology to make a good fight and survive. It seems like the writers and fans want to make him invincible so that he can beat just about anybody.

I love the Batman parodies on How It Should Have Ended.

Superman: "Because you're Batman?"
Batman: "BECAUSE I'M BATMAN!"

Those are the best "I'M BATMAN" moments

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Old 07-25-2013, 07:07 PM   #169
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Tell me, what do you think the ramifications will be if the upcoming Superman movies never use Kryptonite? And don't say "it will be sacrilege." What will be the actual problems it will cause? How will it make the movies worse? How will it make people like the movies less?

If it's possible to make a Superman story without Kryptonite, then why not do it? Why would anyone be obligated to do it even if the story doesn't call for it?
Because superhero movies usually aren't just treated as standalone cinematic adventures where they expect the audience to bring their knowledge of certain things into the theater with them. In Man Of Steel's case, it was an attempt at retelling and establishing the mythology for another medium. And if you're going to use this series to further establish that mythology, then you need to establish the character's weakness to kryptonite. You can't just continue on in this universe without alluding to that aspect of the tale.

But at this point in time it doesn't matter what they do. For God sakes they're already bringing Batman into the fray. So perhaps I'm arguing a moot point.

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Old 07-25-2013, 09:56 PM   #170
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Oh, haha, I wasn't sure. Its hard to tell through text at times.

But yes, I really hate the excuse, "BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN!" What appeals to me about Batman is that he has no powers, so he has to rely on skill and technology to make a good fight and survive. It seems like the writers and fans want to make him invincible so that he can beat just about anybody.

I love the Batman parodies on How It Should Have Ended.

Superman: "Because you're Batman?"
Batman: "BECAUSE I'M BATMAN!"
It wins every argument/debate.

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:34 PM   #171
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So what? Why does that mean someone writing a Superman story is obligated to include Kryptonite? As I've demonstrated, there have been plenty of great Superman stories without Kryptonite in them at all and no one cared. If you don't include Kryptonite in a Superman movie (which, by the way, already happened with Man of Steel), in what way does that make the story less? In what way is the audience's appreciation of the film enhanced with the inclusion of Kryptonite, even if they find other ways to challenge the character without it?



A big part of the concept endured because writers liked having an easy way of writing peril for Superman where they didn't have to think too hard.

And what's wrong with creating physical peril for Superman by having him go up against something that's powerful enough to hurt him? How does that not leave an impression? And why is Kryptonite better?

What leaves a bigger impression, Superman getting sick when someone pulls out a green rock that we all know can make Superman sick for vaguely defined reasons, or Superman coming up to an unknown figure and that person out of nowhere lays the smack down on the most powerful living being on the planet?



I fail to see how it makes him more interesting. You can accomplish everything Kryptonite accomplishes with more interesting things, with character, with moral dilemmas, with actual well thought out obstacles that Superman can't just punch his way through and can even kill him. Superman is not less interesting without Kryptonite. Superman is less interesting with Kryptonite. I give a little shout for joy in every Superman story that Kryptonite doesn't make an appearance in because it is a destroyer of drama. My favorite thing about Man of Steel is that there was no Kryptonite.



So what? Why does that mean we have to actually use it ever? Let them keep having it in the back of their minds. Not seeing Kryptonite won't ruin the story for them. There are tons of great Superman stories that are universally beloved that don't feature Kryptonite and no one cares.



It isn't rewriting the mythology. It's just choosing not to include Kryptonite in any of the movies. And it's not asking them to forget it, it's simply not using it. They can remember it all they like.

Tell me, what do you think the ramifications will be if the upcoming Superman movies never use Kryptonite? And don't say "it will be sacrilege." What will be the actual problems it will cause? How will it make the movies worse? How will it make people like the movies less?

If it's possible to make a Superman story without Kryptonite, then why not do it? Why would anyone be obligated to do it even if the story doesn't call for it?
I have to agree with everything you said.

There is no need to ever use Kryptonite ever again as far as I am concerned.

For some reason, I think most of the GA 'roll their eyes' whenever someone pulls out Kryptonite.. its' just part of the fairy tale that is too much 'fairy' in it...

If Superman have such weakness, you have to assume that soon EVERYONE will know, because one thing that is more certain than Death and Taxes, is that information will always get out (ask the US gov about Snowden)....

And if EVERYONE knows superman's weakness, and NO ONE manages to kill him, that in itself is ridiculous to the extreme,... and we know there are billions of tons of Kryptonite out there floating in space, even crashed into earth... There would be trade in Kryptonite all over the galaxy, and any aliens that is space-faring would have a piece of the rock... (all that is logically derived).

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:40 PM   #172
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

I've actually seen a few comments saying, "Why can't Zod just take out Kryptonite when he's fighting Superman?"

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:50 PM   #173
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

Well, it is a valid argument.

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:57 PM   #174
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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It wins every argument/debate.
Well, not really.

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Old 07-25-2013, 10:58 PM   #175
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Default Re: Batman Vs. Superman... can this be a fair physical fight?

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I have to agree with everything you said.

There is no need to ever use Kryptonite ever again as far as I am concerned.

For some reason, I think most of the GA 'roll their eyes' whenever someone pulls out Kryptonite.. its' just part of the fairy tale that is too much 'fairy' in it...

If Superman have such weakness, you have to assume that soon EVERYONE will know, because one thing that is more certain than Death and Taxes, is that information will always get out (ask the US gov about Snowden)....

And if EVERYONE knows superman's weakness, and NO ONE manages to kill him, that in itself is ridiculous to the extreme,... and we know there are billions of tons of Kryptonite out there floating in space, even crashed into earth... There would be trade in Kryptonite all over the galaxy, and any aliens that is space-faring would have a piece of the rock... (all that is logically derived).

I agree completely. We have a still very powerful but not omnipotent Superman now. I don't think he needs kryptonite anymore than Tor needs to change back to Don Blake without his hammer. Personally even as a 40 year plus Superman fan , I loathe Kryptonite.

If they realty really need to depower him there's always the kryptonian atmosphere trick. Batman should outmaneuver Superman but not in away that makes him look stupid. I'd rather see a mutual respect developer rather than a clear win myself and then common foes the can really let lose against.

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