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Old 07-29-2013, 07:44 AM   #226
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I know the feeling..I know the feeling.

You know, a part of me wonders...if this was the original plan from the start up, to have batman in the next film, I wonder why they didn't do a post credit scene alluding to Batman's arrival in the next film.

In any case, it seems like Snyder and Goyer have much more to prove this time around, probably more so before MOS was released because we've all now seen on what they're really capable of with superman only, now they have batman on the plate along with a fair share of amount of people who had issues with their film, even for those who enjoyed it.
I'm kind of wondering(/maybe hoping) that Snyder/Goyer will naturally come off doing another Superman sequel, once they work their way up towards Justice League.

Maybe we'll get to see a Darren Arrofskny Superman film after all. I just hope that this particular property (with Henry and Amy, etc.) isn't tainted by the mixed reception surrounding it though. I'd like to think it can still attract the best talent.

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Old 07-29-2013, 07:47 AM   #227
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I'm kind of wondering(/maybe hoping) that Snyder/Goyer will naturally come off doing a Superman sequel, once they work their way up towards Justice League.

Maybe we'll get to see a Darren Arrofskny Superman film after all. I just hope that this particular property (with Henry and Amy, etc.) isn't tainted by the mixed reception surrounding it though. I'd like to think it can still attract the best talent.
Indeed.

I don't know how I'm going to make it through these next two years.lol I'm trying to make sure that I don't get too excited or invested in this project because the last time that happened, I was in full "depression" mode when bad news started coming out for MOS before I actually got to see it. Of course it was all moot after I saw it for myself, but still, I did spot and did have some of the very same issues that people had with the film.

And the only real reason why I was so pessimistic about this new film is because I was so hoping to see a direct sequel to MOS without Batman being involved.

There are days where I think this film has the potential to do great, and others where I know that it has the potential to do terrible things as well.

I would definitely label this film as a big gamble, mainly for Superman's character since he has the most to lose from this imho.

And yeah, I'm praying that Superman and Lois's character are handled well at least in this new film since those two are the most important duo in the franchise that i care about.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:01 AM   #228
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Grant Morrison: It's a credible Superman for now. But I'm not sure about the killing thing. I don't want to sound like some fuddy-duddy Silver Age apologist but I've noticed a lot recently of people saying Batman should kill the Joker and, yeah, Superman should kill, he should make the tough moral decisions we all have to make every day. I don't know about you, but the last moral decision I made didn't have anything to do with killing people. And I don't think many of us ever have to make the decision whether or not to kill. In fact, the more you think about it, unless you're in one of the Armed Forces, killing is illegal and immoral. Why would we want our superheroes to do that?

There is a certain demand for it, but I just keep wondering why people insist that this is the sort of thing we'd all do if we were in Superman's place and had to make the tough decision and we'd kill Zod. Would we? Very few of us have ever killed anything. What is this weird bloodlust in watching our superheroes kill the villains?
Well that's two of my favourite Superman writers who share my opinion on the matter.

TBH, I feel like that's really all that matters.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:07 AM   #229
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I'm glad Snyder mixed it up at the end with putting Superman in the situation he was in. It's just too easy to be able to suck everyone back in the zone with no tough decision to make. God forbid someone actually doesn't play it safe with a superhero at the end and have it be of all people Superman!

And I have no idea what Morrison is talking about with bloodlust. Just because I approve of the ending to MOS doesn't mean I want Superman or any other hero killing people left and right. That is not my desire at all!

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:24 AM   #230
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I think it makes for an interesting question: 'Is there a singular Superman?'.

People argue that Superman has been a killer, a jerk and an angry brute, and cite crass 90's material from lesser writers. And I really don't know if that's fair.

There seems to only be a handful of writers that really get the character. Elliot S. Maggin, Alan Moore, Mark Waid, Grant Morrison, Paul Dini, and Joe Casey to name some of them. Their works are the most influential, celebrated, and cited as reference that informs the character.

I'm just not sure if it's a particularly strong argument seen on here these days that 'oh Superman has been all these nasty things in his 75 years'. I feel there is a singular platonic ideal of the character that transcends through all the best work.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:35 AM   #231
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Adding I think that it's because of Superman's long line of writers and history that that is factored into consideration when trying to define the character.

The truth is this: Anyone can write Superman. This isn't one writers character (like Bill Watterson and Calvin and Hobbes, or J.R.R. Tolken and Aragorn). Anyone can write Superman, and many have. They can make him do anything. John Byrne made him shoot pornography with Big Barda for christ sake.

So to take that into consideration you have to look at the one character that shines through the muck. And that's where the stronger works of him come through. And in those he was never a killer.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:42 AM   #232
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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They can make him do anything. John Byrne made him shoot pornography with Big Barda for christ sake.
Well, to be fair he was "mind controlled".

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:22 AM   #233
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Well that's two of my favourite Superman writers who share my opinion on the matter.

TBH, I feel like that's really all that matters.
Next time Morrison has himself and family attacked by someone with deadly force in said attacker's possession..... Let me know.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:32 AM   #234
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Well that's two of my favourite Superman writers who share my opinion on the matter.

TBH, I feel like that's really all that matters.
dont want to derail this but what would you suggest superman do with zod

phantom zone is gone,no prison on earth can hold him,he was'nt going to stop since he had nothing to live for since his new krypton plan is dead

say he drags zod away from that family then what? the fight isn't going to be over because he moved him

it was the definition of suicide by cop

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:32 AM   #235
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I'm glad Snyder mixed it up at the end with putting Superman in the situation he was in. It's just too easy to be able to suck everyone back in the zone with no tough decision to make. God forbid someone actually doesn't play it safe with a superhero at the end and have it be of all people Superman!

And I have no idea what Morrison is talking about with bloodlust. Just because I approve of the ending to MOS doesn't mean I want Superman or any other hero killing people left and right. That is not my desire at all!
Thank you.

I think MOS is seriously misunderstood film. The movie lays alot of ground work and built a foundation. The best thing the movie does is leave people with the question "Where do we go from here?"

Who pays for the damage
How does Kal handle the killing thing again
Did people really freak out now or are they thankful
How does Superman reveal himself publicly
How will Lois and Clark play out with her knowing
Is the a relationship with Swanwick and Superman
Braniac, Aquaman, Lex?

Superman has a mountain to climb here.

There is something divine about a struggle. And it's about time we see a struggle spawning from his circumstances as opposed to a struggle spawned from his love for Lois.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:34 AM   #236
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I'm glad Snyder mixed it up at the end with putting Superman in the situation he was in. It's just too easy to be able to suck everyone back in the zone with no tough decision to make. God forbid someone actually doesn't play it safe with a superhero at the end and have it be of all people Superman!

And I have no idea what Morrison is talking about with bloodlust. Just because I approve of the ending to MOS doesn't mean I want Superman or any other hero killing people left and right. That is not my desire at all!
so am i for too long people have wrote him with children's gloves and avoided tough situations always write for the easy way out where everything is so perfect

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:36 AM   #237
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Who would've figured on June 13th that MOS would have such a divided reaction?

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:40 AM   #238
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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dont want to derail this but what would you suggest superman do with zod

phantom zone is gone,no prison on earth can hold him,he was'nt going to stop since he had nothing to live for since his new krypton plan is dead

say he drags zod away from that family then what? the fight isn't going to be over because he moved him

it was the definition of suicide by cop
This isn't a fair question though. Zack and David Goyer wrote Superman into that corner. They could have written the final fight an infinite number of ways but they wrote it to allow for Superman to kill. That's the problem.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:43 AM   #239
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I loved Man of Steel. Now we're going to be adding a brand new fresh Batman into the mix....I'm beyond excited.

I don't think I could ever feel "dread" for a movie I haven't even seen a trailer for...

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:54 AM   #240
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Thank you.

I think MOS is seriously misunderstood film. The movie lays alot of ground work and built a foundation. The best thing the movie does is leave people with the question "Where do we go from here?"

Who pays for the damage
How does Kal handle the killing thing again
Did people really freak out now or are they thankful
How does Superman reveal himself publicly
How will Lois and Clark play out with her knowing
Is the a relationship with Swanwick and Superman
Braniac, Aquaman, Lex?

Superman has a mountain to climb here.

There is something divine about a struggle. And it's about time we see a struggle spawning from his circumstances as opposed to a struggle spawned from his love for Lois.
Yes. And my enjoyment for MOS is from the fact that it feels like one installment in a larger saga, though a more fleshed out stand-alone movie would be more effective. I can't wait for MOS2.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:56 AM   #241
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I can't wait till they start filming and I'm staring at set photos.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:13 AM   #242
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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dont want to derail this but what would you suggest superman do with zod

phantom zone is gone,no prison on earth can hold him,he was'nt going to stop since he had nothing to live for since his new krypton plan is dead

say he drags zod away from that family then what? the fight isn't going to be over because he moved him

it was the definition of suicide by cop
In that situation, sure, he didn't have a choice.

But the thing is Goyer didn't have to write it that way.


Me personally, I don't mind if Superman has to kill the bad guy under very extreme circumstances as long as the narrative acknowledges and pays reverence to the gravity and severity of it, and as long as it's earned by the narrative and furthers the themes and stories.

The thing is, I don't feel like Zod's death did this. In general, I don't think Zod not getting sucked into the Phantom Zone and having one last fight with Superman after the rest of the Kryptonians were locked away added anything to the film at all. If Zod had been sucked into the PZ with the rest of them, the movie wouldn't have been any different other than being shorter, that last fight and Zod's death didn't really enhance or add to the film at all.

So part of it is, the death really wasn't necessary. Just have Zod get sucked into the Phantom Zone with the rest of them and it wouldn't have been an issue.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #243
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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In that situation, sure, he didn't have a choice.

But the thing is Goyer didn't have to write it that way.


Me personally, I don't mind if Superman has to kill the bad guy under very extreme circumstances as long as the narrative acknowledges and pays reverence to the gravity and severity of it, and as long as it's earned by the narrative and furthers the themes and stories.

The thing is, I don't feel like Zod's death did this. In general, I don't think Zod not getting sucked into the Phantom Zone and having one last fight with Superman after the rest of the Kryptonians were locked away added anything to the film at all. If Zod had been sucked into the PZ with the rest of them, the movie wouldn't have been any different other than being shorter, that last fight and Zod's death didn't really enhance or add to the film at all.

So part of it is, the death really wasn't necessary. Just have Zod get sucked into the Phantom Zone with the rest of them and it wouldn't have been an issue.
^You're right, his death made no difference in this movie. But going forward, how will Zod's death play on Superman? This issue can't be addressed right away but it can be in sequels and I believe that was the point, because Goyer and Snyder said something as much.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:20 AM   #244
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

^ I think THIS was supposed to be an issue, though. I think it was designed to keep people talking, rather than being a throwaway moment.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #245
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I think they wanted to be provocative. They're probably happy people are still talking about the ending even if it is divisive.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:22 AM   #246
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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^You're right, his death made no difference in this movie. But going forward, how will Zod's death play on Superman? This issue can't be addressed right away but it can be in sequels and I believe that was the point, because Goyer and Snyder said something as much.
Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add anything to the movie that it's in. Of course they're writing with sequels in mind, but each individual film is it's own thing with it's own needs.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:27 AM   #247
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Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add anything to the movie that it's in. Of course they're writing with sequels in mind, but each individual film is it's own thing with it's own needs.
I like the movie, but THIS!!! Goyer wrote it knowing he could "add on" for the sequel, while Zack was thinking for the longterm, but not as much an individual installment. So the film is riding the coattails of a sequel that might not exist (as a Clark in Metropolis story) or be compromised for a rushed JL film.

It's as if Snyder took his duties as the founder of the new DCU TOO seriously, and Goyer didn't put everything he could into it, because he was too scared to deliver a "real world" Superman movie in part 1. We'll have to wait until MOS2 to get our "Iron Giant" type Superman movie.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:54 AM   #248
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Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't add anything to the movie that it's in. Of course they're writing with sequels in mind, but each individual film is it's own thing with it's own needs.
I think this is the foundation of why people say it's a good Sci Fi film but not a Superman film.

MOS was really the battle for krypton on earth.

I was hoping for a sequel to address these issues.

But regardless of killing Zod or not. The people of Metropolis won't care about that, it's the destruction caused by Superman's presence.

From what I gather it seems that it takes 2 movies to address a Superman origin. Donner needed two so he could address the kryptonians. Snyder addressed krypton in the first film but Superman was not realized yet.

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:07 PM   #249
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I rather liked the way Superman was forced to make a choice that contrivance usually saves him from. Like the limits of his strength or his endurance, there is a limit to his moral perfection as well: that limit is the real world.

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #250
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I thought the ending of MOS was very refreshing. The last time Superman faced some difficult onscreen situations....he literally just flew the earth backwards.

One of the biggest knocks on Superman from detractors is "he has every power and just isn't interesting." Well even with all of his powers, he was still forced to kill. He had no choice. It was nice that they wrote him into that corner and decision.

Killing Zod added a lot to Superman's character, probably some levels we will have to wait for B&S to fully see.

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