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Old 08-02-2013, 10:36 AM   #451
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Yeah Superman/Batman was easily the smartest way to go in 2015. I think it could be bigger than The Avengers AOU.

Also it isn't hard to bring in Wayne as a natural continuation of this story. It really isn't as tagged on as some on here are making out.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:36 AM   #452
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

A lot of Superman fans seem disappointed. But at least Cavill's Superman will appear again. It's not like Routh's Superman.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:36 AM   #453
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yeah and another thing to be honest about then is, will all this talk about this film be worth it if it turns out to be people being more hesitant and apprehensive about the project than excited? So far, only Batman fans at best are excited about this film.
No risk, no reward. This is a HUGE risk, but WB wants to make bank and not get blown out of the water in 2015. So they went all in.

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Heh, thanks.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:38 AM   #454
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Financially, I understand why they did this. Creatively, it could be a detriment. Hopefully not.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:41 AM   #455
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Could a "true" sequel happen after World's Finest? The window for a true trilogy is closing, and Amy's not getting any younger.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:42 AM   #456
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I'm prettty sure we were always gonna get a team up film after MOS. Go back to Latino Review's report in December about getting Bale and Nolan as a producer of sorts to return for a WF or JLA film. Remember it said that Snyder would probably direct and Goyer would write the film(s)?

And if the rumors about getting an "older" Batman are true, that tells me that they've even still held on to a older Bale like Batman that would have appeared had the parties said yes. Remember that WB had JLA in the 2015 slot before MOS even came out . Remember that they had gone through the Will Beall JLA script that was made to meet the 2015 target. This was always the plan but from WB's pov but I think fans got lulled into thinking that it wouldn't happen because WB hadn't gotten the project off the ground.

While I do think MOS's box office did play a roll in reaffirming their belief that a team up should be next, its clear to me now this was always in the cards from WB's perspective. While Snyder and co may have preferred a solo sequel, this was on the table long before this comic con announcement so I don't buy the fan narrative that it was "last minute" or a "out of left field".

It may have seemed last minute or out of left field for fans, but I think alot of people forgot about the big news El May leaked back in december and assumed that WB had abandoned the WF idea. He was right afterall.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:46 AM   #457
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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Yeah Superman/Batman was easily the smartest way to go in 2015. I think it could be bigger than The Avengers AOU.

Also it isn't hard to bring in Wayne as a natural continuation of this story. It really isn't as tagged on as some on here are making out.
From a financial perspective, yes. But it's a shame that we live in a world where this artistic medium is driven by that. I wish that the thinking was 'well maybe we can't as much money as the rest, but let's try and make the best genre film out of all of them that year'. People are receptive to quality. And in the longterm people can look back and say well that was the best of those films that year, moreso than how much money it makes. Just a shame. Batman has absolutely nothing to do with Superman's journey, and I think it's a silly argument to make that bringing him in is a natural development to the story. It's not. It's going to have to be tweaked that way. But greed is driving this.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:04 AM   #458
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From a financial perspective, yes. But it's a shame that we live in a world where this artistic medium is driven by that. I wish that the thinking was 'well maybe we can't as much money as the rest, but let's try and make the best genre film out of all of them that year'. People are receptive to quality. And in the longterm people can look back and say well that was the best of those films that year, moreso than how much money it makes. Just a shame. Batman has absolutely nothing to do with Superman's journey, and I think it's a silly argument to make that bringing him in is a natural development to the story. It's not. It's going to have to be tweaked that way. But greed is driving this.
The thing is, these larger than life effects-driven films are expensive as hell to make.

WB releases a film like Argo to receive critical acclaim and awards. They release huge tentpoles to make them HUGE money that will help make up for all the other losses they've taken throughout the year and make the entire year profitable for them. It's a huge investment, and tentpole films are the lifeblood of the film industry. Yes, we all want as much artistic merit as possible in our big summer movies, but...

That's not the primary reason they get made. And because they're so expensive to make WB has every right to try and minimize their risk. More and more huge summer films are bombing. The competition will be fierce in 2015. "Maybe we won't make the most money but let's just make a good film" is the attitude the FILMMAKERS should bring to the project. But it's these studio execs' jobs to greenlight the project that has the most potential for success.

Yes, it's greed. It's capitalism. It's reality. Now it's the job of Snyder and Goyer to deal with that reality, and use their imaginations and passion for the characters to make this the best movie possible. They're still being given a TON of money to "play". A budget most writers and directors out there would drool over. A PROJECT many would drool over.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:11 AM   #459
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I think it could be both a solid hit and a bit of a disappointment. I don't know what WB profit margin is. It may have met expectations but didn't blow them away.
Secondly, it's not just how much money you make but how you reach it when trying to project profit margins for sequels. Look at the first Iron Man and the last Bond film. Ignore the actual numbers for a second. No one had to guess about the word of mouth. No one had to guess at the GA reaction. Those movies had great legs and WOM. When a movie has positive buzz it creates goodwill for the next film. MOS seems caught somewhere in between.
What would you say about the word of mouth coming off the first TF?

My point is, who exactly are you polling here...

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:14 AM   #460
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

My point is you don't have to poll people to know whether the movie has great WOM.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:30 AM   #461
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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From a financial perspective, yes. But it's a shame that we live in a world where this artistic medium is driven by that. I wish that the thinking was 'well maybe we can't as much money as the rest, but let's try and make the best genre film out of all of them that year'. People are receptive to quality. And in the longterm people can look back and say well that was the best of those films that year, moreso than how much money it makes. Just a shame. Batman has absolutely nothing to do with Superman's journey, and I think it's a silly argument to make that bringing him in is a natural development to the story. It's not. It's going to have to be tweaked that way. But greed is driving this.
That's a matter of opinion.
I for one agree that he doesn't have so much to do with the man's origin and funny enough we have our batman free origin film but there's no accounting for when the two crossed paths just that it's likely they crossed paths with each other before meeting the other DCU.

Just like with the marvel films, I see no problem with it. TV and film work in a different time space than comic books, if anything it's accelerated. For example Arrow and Smallville are wrought with other heroes appearing which help mold who the main hero wants to be. Ollie meeting huntress does nothing but help his development into who he wants to be imo. Could be seen as a cash grab by some, could be seen as a creative decision by another.

I just think if WB launched MOS with a batman appearance this would be a different discussion but to do so at this point doesn't seem entirely money driven. Heroes meet other heroes all the time in the comics, when done right it works wonders for characterization. Loeb's early Superman/Batman series was a great exercise in getting to know who the two were, just as that Trinity series was. It's a different scenario but the Xmen books are almost very much driven by this principle.

I also think a few months ago there were alot of columns that would point out WB's lack of world building in relation to marvels. Particularly Nolan's insistence to have TDK series be self contained. Now we get this approach and they are getting a different sort of backlash from the fan community.
Funny enough before Avengers many people would complain that marvel is comprising their art for the executives. I just think it's not all that easy to make fans happy(not impossible).

A martin luthor king story with an early appearance from malcom x is more than just a money grab, it might just inform character who knows. Of course there are those who suggest that each character could exist in their own film.

King vs MalcomX coming summer 2015

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:35 AM   #462
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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My point is you don't have to poll people to know whether the movie has great WOM.
To answer my question: The word of mouth that mattered for TF was phenomenal.
You wouldn't know that if you lived on the internet. The line ups for the sequel were around the block.

That's my point.
Strangely enough, similar box office, similar critical score, similar fan backlash, similar audience scores, similar commercially scrutinized directors.

Strong world of mouth coming out of the film. Could it be stronger, sure. But anyone suggesting it's poor or below the relative standard is off base.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:39 AM   #463
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

It'll be interesting to see how MoS performs on Blu-ray.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:40 AM   #464
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Despite the bad reviews, I think the first Transformers did have good WOM. Fans weren't divided on it. They took it straight as a summer popcorn flick. Now compare that to TF Revenge of the Fallen. It made a ton of money but there was a lot more criticism of it.

To me that fact that were discussing what the WOM was on MOS makes me think it was okay but not great.

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:50 AM   #465
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

What a bizarre attitude. That would imply that "Judge Dredd", the best comicbook movie since "The Dark Knight", was just "okay".

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Old 08-02-2013, 11:53 AM   #466
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

A movie can be great and not generate any buzz or have a huge audience. But if most people haven't seen a film then WOM becomes meaningless during it's theatrical run.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:13 PM   #467
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

That **** You Michael Bay fan stuff really picked up steam around the TF film. That's when I was made aware of it anyways. To suggest fans weren't divided or against that film at the time simply isn't accurate. It's only now that they have been given perspective that the attitude towards that film has seemingly shifted...a tad.

TF2 has even more backlash, and less positive word but that didn't stop tf3 from doing well if not more. However I stand by the TF1 comparison. I think the WOM form the GA has been about the same only with TF the GA had even less preconceptions about what to expect(for better or worse) and it was more of a natural response.
A film with bad WOM tends to really taint the next installment, this is very evident in the history of the Xmen saga.

As for the GA:
WOM for the first Spidey film was through the roof, WOM for TDK was remarkable, WOM for Thor/Cap was decent, WOM for TF and MOS was/is very strong....WOM for GL was bad.
That's what I think anyways.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:19 PM   #468
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Not completely disagreeing with you, Marvin.

I'm not an expert on TF but I got the sense the first TF film had positive word of mouth but the second didn't. The third film made less money domestically than the second one but more WW.

I also agree that preconceive notions hurt MOS.

I also agree about WOM on all the films you mentioned except MOS. I'm not sure it's strong. I don't think it's bad. To me, the other ones were much clearer.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:20 PM   #469
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Yeah, I can't really get a sense on what the WOM is for MoS. To be honest, I didn't really hear people talking about it at all in my circles.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:22 PM   #470
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

That's my point. I wasn't bashing MOS or the WOM. But usually you can tell with a film if WOM is great or bad. That's why I figured it's only okay with MOS.

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Old 08-02-2013, 12:25 PM   #471
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

People weren't too impressed. WOM for,MOS Was not good. Just look at the drop in box office from opening weekend. It was not good

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Old 08-02-2013, 01:12 PM   #472
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

I'm looking at things relatively.

WoM of Returns was "...", I don't remember anyone talking about it and I also remember when media made reports about what was coming next there wasn't too much commotion. More to the point Superman didn't seem to be back in the public conscience or conversation.

I personally see MOS in the TF state of things. And I do see conversations about it all over the place. All the major negativity I am seeing comes from a certain place. Talkbacks and fan driven forums and critical reviews/bloogers. The general audience wom seems very much not in line with that. However unlike the people that didn't like the lack of lack of grit in thor, there is simply more people with superman opinions to go around..

I think in this particular day and age, MOS has had to face something very particular. A new perception of standards. After TDK/Avengers, the amount of money the film made has come under a new standard of scrutiny and just as that, so has the perception of it's word of mouth. Being the second reboot to this property in not so many years I honestly didn't see this first outing having that come see this for the first time sort of impact, however like morrison suggested, the producers have lined themselves up for a TDK sort of impact if they play this sequel right.

Curious what ya'll are referring to with WOM though.
Just how positive the positve... or just how much positives there is.
Or both?

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Old 08-02-2013, 01:31 PM   #473
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

Personally, I'm referring to how much I've heard people talk about the film in every day life, amongst the people I know that usually talk about movies. It just doesn't come up much.

I'm also basing it on the mood when I left the theater on opening night. I went with a group of 8 guys who were all pretty excited to see it. The reactions of all them ranged from hating it to thinking it was "pretty good", with most falling somewhere in the zone of "it was okay".

The reason I hesitate to compare this to Transformers is because I think people expected that to be a dumb movie going into it. They knew what they were getting into. MoS was advertised as the second coming of Batman Begins, and for a lot of people it wasn't that, hence the disappointment.

That's not to say that a lot of people didn't go NUTS for MoS though. But it's a very mixed reaction where I feel like the positive and negative cancel each other out and it's left kind of neutral.

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Old 08-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #474
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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I'm looking at things relatively.

WoM of Returns was "...", I don't remember anyone talking about it and I also remember when media made reports about what was coming next there wasn't too much commotion. More to the point Superman didn't seem to be back in the public conscience or conversation.

I personally see MOS in the TF state of things. And I do see conversations about it all over the place. All the major negativity I am seeing comes from a certain place. Talkbacks and fan driven forums and critical reviews/bloogers. The general audience wom seems very much not in line with that. However unlike the people that didn't like the lack of lack of grit in thor, there is simply more people with superman opinions to go around..

I think in this particular day and age, MOS has had to face something very particular. A new perception of standards. After TDK/Avengers, the amount of money the film made has come under a new standard of scrutiny and just as that, so has the perception of it's word of mouth. Being the second reboot to this property in not so many years I honestly didn't see this first outing having that come see this for the first time sort of impact, however like morrison suggested, the producers have lined themselves up for a TDK sort of impact if they play this sequel right.

Curious what ya'll are referring to with WOM though.
Just how positive the positve... or just how much positives there is.
Or both?
Yes. The sequel could be the best comic-book movie of all time, if the writing improves and the structuring is more well thought out. The cast is ace, and if Snyder tries to be as subtle as he possibly can, then we can have a film that is dramatic and full of warmth and scope.

But making a hybrid film right after a first installment that leaves a lot to be desired-character wise, isn't the best move.

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Old 08-02-2013, 10:57 PM   #475
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread.

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If over 600 million is what they consider a disappointment, then I'd pity every director out there who wants to adapt a DC hero since making over 600 for a first outing involving a DC hero is no simple feat.
I have no doubt in my mind WB were expecting way more than what they got. My theory is if MoS breaks $800 we get MoS 2 easily, but given $650 million is all it got and the fact that 2015 is going to be an insane year for film it's time to flash the Bat Signal.

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