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Old 07-31-2013, 11:49 PM   #376
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I don't see Stark helping SHIELD at all. After Avengers, I can't see him giving Fury or anyone associated with him the time of day. It's always been my assumption that the team will think of themselves as autonomous now.

Anyway, back to Zola. I have a hunch we'll only see him in flashbacks in TWS, probably when we see WS's transformation. It seems more likely that Ultron will either be an offshoot of the JARVIS program, or (my vote) SHIELD and/or the WSC creates the AI as a means of fighting rogue superheroes.
Suppose:

Arnim Zola builds a prototype AI for HYDRA some time during WWII and/or the Cold War era. Lames names it Ultron. Here's its purpose: it's a Sleeper, just like in the old Captain America comics. It's designed to become fully functional sometime in the future, after Red Skull has been recovered from the cosmos.

In the meantime, Zola himself puts his consciousness into a working AI and builds the android body he's famous for, and we saw in those plans in CATFA, so that he can be "immortal" after a fashion.

Cut to the present. Somewhere in the hidden recesses of CATWS and Thor:TDW, we learn that Red Skull *has* returned, resumed his rightful place at the (regenerated) head of a reborn HYDRA ("cut one head off, two more take its place"), and infiltrates SHIELD. It's largely through dark magic/"aether" that he's been summoned back to this plane.

Now armed with cosmic knowledge and power, and maybe a stray artifact or two, a la Loki in The Avengers, Red Skull and Android Zola can now activate Ultron, the Sleeper. But they still need advanced tech....

....the kind of tech that only Tony Stark can provide. He's built the Extremis/Bleeding Edge armor in between the events of IM3 and AoU, and now the suit has become biomechanical and literally inside him, as per the comics. Cue Zola's AI trojan-horsing JARVIS, taking over the Extremis Armor (and Iron Man himself), and rebuilding the suit as.....Ultron.

Hence the title sequence for AoU that was shown at SDCC: Iron Man literally transforms into Ultron. (Like I keep saying: *just like* in Bendis' Mighty Avengers storyline.)

So....Cap's indirectly involved in Ultron's creation. So is Thor. And Iron Man is *directly* involved.....but unwittingly, as Ultron's *victim,* instead of its *creator.*

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:53 PM   #377
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What If those suits which stark blew up in IM-3 came to life but now feeling betrayed by their maker they combine together with corrupt AI and form The Ultron
Black Widow and Ultron scuffles. Widow pierces a sword through the robot's chest of circuitry; Ultron doesn't reel; Ultron looks back. "W..what are you", an astonishing Widow whimpers. "The Ultron", growls the machine as he proceeds to unsheath the sword from his electric pecs in a beautiful profile wideshot remake of the Wolverine.

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Old 07-31-2013, 11:58 PM   #378
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Is mighty avengers a movie? Or just a comic series. I'd like to watch it.. sounds interesting but not read it lol

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:05 AM   #379
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Suppose:

Arnim Zola builds a prototype AI for HYDRA some time during WWII and/or the Cold War era. Lames names it Ultron. Here's its purpose: it's a Sleeper, just like in the old Captain America comics. It's designed to become fully functional sometime in the future, after Red Skull has been recovered from the cosmos.

In the meantime, Zola himself puts his consciousness into a working AI and builds the android body he's famous for, and we saw in those plans in CATFA, so that he can be "immortal" after a fashion.

Cut to the present. Somewhere in the hidden recesses of CATWS and Thor:TDW, we learn that Red Skull *has* returned, resumed his rightful place at the (regenerated) head of a reborn HYDRA ("cut one head off, two more take its place"), and infiltrates SHIELD. It's largely through dark magic/"aether" that he's been summoned back to this plane.

Now armed with cosmic knowledge and power, and maybe a stray artifact or two, a la Loki in The Avengers, Red Skull and Android Zola can now activate Ultron, the Sleeper. But they still need advanced tech....

....the kind of tech that only Tony Stark can provide. He's built the Extremis/Bleeding Edge armor in between the events of IM3 and AoU, and now the suit has become biomechanical and literally inside him, as per the comics. Cue Zola's AI trojan-horsing JARVIS, taking over the Extremis Armor (and Iron Man himself), and rebuilding the suit as.....Ultron.

Hence the title sequence for AoU that was shown at SDCC: Iron Man literally transforms into Ultron. (Like I keep saying: *just like* in Bendis' Mighty Avengers storyline.)

So....Cap's indirectly involved in Ultron's creation. So is Thor. And Iron Man is *directly* involved.....but unwittingly, as Ultron's *victim,* instead of its *creator.*
Uhhhhhhh wut?!?

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:15 AM   #380
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Is it possible that Thanos may be involved with Ultron going berserk?

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Old 08-01-2013, 12:54 AM   #381
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I would suspect the Scarlett Witch's powers would play a part in taking down Utron. That along with Stark messing with his programming and a healthy bashing from the others.

I do want to see Ultron nearly indestructible physically, though.
I donīt think you will have to worry about that since itīs probably going to be vibranium and titanium if I had to guess.
What I wonder is if Scarletīs magic should penentrate vibranium. I guess vib only works on normal energy?

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I really want to see a scene where Quicksilver rushes at Ultron and is immediately halted when Ultron grabs him by the neck and holds him up.
Haha a little Doomsday-Flash-scenario. Yeah those are always badass!

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My one hope is that Ultron really isn't defeated for good in the movie. The team takes out the body and shuts down the system but really he's backed up somewhere and they only tease that for the audience. Avengers 3 battle royale with him and thanos both in it! (Oksy maybe not but I'd still like his return be left open but unknowingly to the movie characters
Ultron will not be defeated. He survives as always ofc! He will probably upload himself somewhere. There are a lot marvel movies comming thatīs probably going to have follow ups.
This is dreaming but man, if the could launch a couple DD movies, and Ultron appears there or something.

As for this Zola thing, why not? I think Zola will build the A.I! Ultron might already be alive on itīs way to take over Jarvis.

The infitrated council can tell Shield to work on some project which ends up at Starkīs, also possible but it feels forced somehow.


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Old 08-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #382
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Haha a little Doomsday-Flash-scenario. Yeah those are always badass!
Yeah, I actually really wanted it for JL back when I thought it would come out in 2015, but I wanted Darkseid to be the one to do it to Flash. Now it can go to AoU since they have a speedster of their own and Ultron is badass enough to do it.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:32 AM   #383
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I really want to see a scene where Quicksilver rushes at Ultron and is immediately halted when Ultron grabs him by the neck and holds him up.
EPIC!!!!!!!!! I hope that happens.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:33 AM   #384
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EPIC!!!!!!!!! I hope that happens.
You and me both, my friend.

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Old 08-01-2013, 01:53 AM   #385
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Is Howard Stark has something to do with Shields Buisness ?

can he be considered alive then ...

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Old 08-01-2013, 02:27 AM   #386
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huh?

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:17 AM   #387
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Uhhhhhhh wut?!?
Sorry, it made more sense when I wasn't half asleep.

The gist of it is that Zola creates Sleeper robots at the end of WWII for HYDRA that are designed to awaken in the future to bring back Red Skull. (See: Captain America #101; see: the AEMH episode "Winter Soldier".) Ultron is one of the Sleepers, and the only one that survives the last 70 years. (Or maybe there's just one Sleeper, and it's Ultron. Whatevs.)

It's not until the present day that "the Sleeper awakens," and now has the technology to fully function. That involves Zola as AI/android, and involves using JARVIS/Extremis Armor Iron Man as a host body for Ultron's transformation. Which is where Mighty Avengers comes into play.

The Thor element is a flat-out long shot, but I'd like to believe that there's some kind of cosmic force that ultimately grants Ultron its superhuman power to become more than Just Another Killer Robot. Maybe something from Thanos, maybe something from Malekith or Loki, dunno. The red Power Gem is a popular theory in fandom for "powering up" Ultron, so I could see that happening.

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:53 AM   #388
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I don't see Stark helping SHIELD at all. After Avengers, I can't see him giving Fury or anyone associated with him the time of day. It's always been my assumption that the team will think of themselves as autonomous now.

Anyway, back to Zola. I have a hunch we'll only see him in flashbacks in TWS, probably when we see WS's transformation. It seems more likely that Ultron will either be an offshoot of the JARVIS program, or (my vote) SHIELD and/or the WSC creates the AI as a means of fighting rogue superheroes.
Yeah, when I think of Tony creating Ultron in this movie, (after crying a bit) I think of security for the new Avengers Tower or something Avengers-related.

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Old 08-01-2013, 07:59 AM   #389
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What if Ultron secretly gets the time gem? Secretly fashions his new world by changing things in the past, and tried to erase Pym from existence by forcing him through the cracks of time and space. This might have forced Tony to become the creator of Ultron's body, way later. It would also force someone else to become Antman, if a Pym had been erased..

What if Ultron killed off Pym in the past, during the end of the 80's, shortly after its AI form was originally created, and Zola only transports it through time, because of the rumored AIM involvement with Ant Man and Ca2... Parts of Ant Man occur in the past and present, with Pym and Lang... And maybe an Ultron has uploaded himself to the multiverse through Limbo...

This would tie into why Pym is still in Ant Man, in the past. Zola would only find the brain patterns, and added them to the "think tank" before Killian started wearing its shirt. Basically, Ultron tried to kill Pym, but we could find out he survived, slipped through the cracks of space and time. This forced him into his Yellowjacket form, while Lang became Antman...

We would get an Ant Man, multiple Ultrons, and a Pym who is pushed to the brink and cycles rapidly through the other personas. He starts as Yellowjacket because it was the only way he could survive Ultron and get back into the timeline later... but skipping through dimensions as Yellowjacket damages Pym's brain for a while. He doesn't think that Pym is a "part of him".
Pym's mind creates Yellowjacket to deal with what Ultron does to him in the past.

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:20 AM   #390
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

What if Killian is alive, gets his consciousness put into a machine, and through that and vibranium, becomes Ultron, as well as the Mandarin?

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:25 AM   #391
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Lol Mechanical organism designed only for Killian'

Like Trevor said to Tony, it could be far more complicated than him being a double or a decoy...

There could be some mind control involved, maybe some stuff related to putting consciousness inside a robot/android on Zola's end.
Maybe Trevor's mind was there and not there at the same time, and he really did "handle it"...

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:38 AM   #392
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The thing with all of these theories is, we have to ask if this is the kind of think Joss Whedon would write. All off this stuff about Zola building a sleeper android and bringing back The Red Skull and the two of them stealing Tony's technology to reactivate the sleeper android called Ultron, or it being Killian on a robot body, or time travel shenanigans with the time gem... none of that sounds like a story Whedon would be interested in telling. He's not really one for super convoluted plots, and he prefers conflicts with some kind of personal stakes for the characters.

"Tony is experimenting with new applications for Artificial Intelligence and it completely goes to ****" is a simpler and much more personal story, and I think that's the one he'd be more likely to go with. It keeps Ultron's origin and motivation intact, just shifting the status of his creator from Pym to Stark because we already know Stark. That seems the most likely to me.

Or maybe he had another idea we can't even think of, I don't know.

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:51 AM   #393
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Lol Mechanical organism designed only for Killian'
roflmao +1

I dunno....time travel is definitely far-fetched, but it *does* sound like a typical day at the office for the comic-book Avengers. The fact that they chose the title "AGE of Ultron" as opposed to "________ (something else) Ultron" could shade towards a time-travel/alternate reality scenario where Ultron has already "won." See: "Terminator: Salvation."

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Old 08-01-2013, 08:57 AM   #394
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roflmao +1

I dunno....time travel is definitely far-fetched, but it *does* sound like a typical day at the office for the comic-book Avengers. The fact that they chose the title "AGE of Ultron" as opposed to "________ (something else) Ultron" could shade towards a time-travel/alternate reality scenario where Ultron has already "won." See: "Terminator: Salvation."
They just liked the title. Feige said they went through a bunch of titles, but they decided they liked the name of the recent series the best, even if it wasn't going to follow the series at all. Plus, Feige promised that they weren't doing time travel in the MCU anytime soon (thank goodness).

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:09 AM   #395
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The thing with all of these theories is, we have to ask if this is the kind of think Joss Whedon would write. All off this stuff about Zola building a sleeper android and bringing back The Red Skull and the two of them stealing Tony's technology to reactivate the sleeper android called Ultron, or it being Killian on a robot body, or time travel shenanigans with the time gem... none of that sounds like a story Whedon would be interested in telling. He's not really one for super convoluted plots, and he prefers conflicts with some kind of personal stakes for the characters.

"Tony is experimenting with new applications for Artificial Intelligence and it completely goes to ****" is a simpler and much more personal story, and I think that's the one he'd be more likely to go with. It keeps Ultron's origin and motivation intact, just shifting the status of his creator from Pym to Stark because we already know Stark. That seems the most likely to me.

Or maybe he had another idea we can't even think of, I don't know.
I just think that since we're hearing we'll be seeing Pym shortly after Avengers 2 in Ant Man, there has to be some explanation for why Pym isn't the brain patterns for Ultron.

It doesn't add up, you could easily name drop Pym in Avengers 2 as the creator of the AI, not show him and then show him later etc.
But I get the whole wanting to make it more personal for the Avengers thing, since we haven't seen Pym.
However, they're still gonna use Pym in Ant Man in some way, so to me something happened to Pym and he literally couldn't create ultron at that time.

I think they definitely have something up their sleeves with Pym.
If you take away his whole creating ultron thing, Pym can be a really psychological character. Maybe Lang is Ant Man, and Pym is someone else... has a touch of multiple personality disorder, actually becomes Yellowjacket and becomes the hero before he ever becomes the villain in this new timeline... it's the Pym part of his brain he's trying to get back to.

Trevor, corrupted by Killian's patterns and making those thoughts real, creating them if you will, caused the Mandarin to become him. Trevor's mind starts creating a real villain alter ego. Tony's suit was just an extension of his mind, his thoughts created it. The suit was a part of him. Although Killian planned things out, Trevor's mind co-created the alter ego of the Mandarin. It wasn't only Killian who gave those ideas life. The ego of these characters makes them want to take responsibility for these creations, like Tony did in IM1. Trevor has to admit he created it/made it so real... Trevor's mind feels that without it, none of Killian's plans would be possible, or real. This may be important for Scarlett Witch, i think she's a telepath, not telekinetic.

I think Pym's whole reluctance to be a hero is going to be played around with and turned on its head, and we will see multiple versions of Pym.
Pyms of all shapes and sizes..
"You don't need a Pym to create an Ultron".

I could be way off base, but I think pym's brain patterns will still be somewhere in the mix... however repressed they are.
And that Ant Man could be the most psychologically thrilling movie out of them, if each movie going forward from phase 2 has a sort of theme to it.


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Old 08-01-2013, 09:16 AM   #396
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roflmao +1

I dunno....time travel is definitely far-fetched, but it *does* sound like a typical day at the office for the comic-book Avengers. The fact that they chose the title "AGE of Ultron" as opposed to "________ (something else) Ultron" could shade towards a time-travel/alternate reality scenario where Ultron has already "won." See: "Terminator: Salvation."
Won't happen though. I posted the tweet from Marvel Freshman a bunch of times reiterating that Marvel said they won't be exploring time travel any time soon in the MCU.

Someone pointed out before that most of the stuff being suggested here is not quite Whedon-esque. I agree. I think people need to wait on a few more clues before getting too extensive with their extreme speculation.

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:22 AM   #397
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I just think that since we're hearing we'll be seeing Pym shortly after Avengers 2 in Ant Man, there has to be some explanation for why Pym isn't the brain patterns for Ultron.
No there doesn't. You just have him not be the guy. Why do you need to explain why he's not the guy?

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It doesn't add up, you could easily name drop Pym in Avengers 2 as the creator of the AI, not show him and then show him later etc.
But I get the whole wanting to make it more personal for the Avengers thing, since we haven't seen Pym.
However, they're still gonna use Pym in Ant Man in some way, so to me something happened to Pym and he literally couldn't create ultron at that time.
Or in this version of the Marvel Universe he just isn't the guy who created Ultron. You don't have to explain why he isn't the guy, you just have him not be the guy. It's not a question that needs to be answered, because most people seeing the film won't be asking it.

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I think they definitely have something up their sleeves with Pym.
If you take away his whole creating ultron thing, Pym can be a really psychological character. Maybe Lang is Ant Man, and Pym is someone else... has a touch of multiple personality disorder, actually becomes Yellowjacket and becomes the hero before he ever becomes the villain in this new timeline... it's the Pym part of his brain he's trying to get back to.

And then Trevor, corrupted by Killian's patterns and making those thoughts real, creating them if you will, making them a part of him... has actually caused the Mandarin to become him. Trevor's mind starts creating a real villain alter ego. Tony's suit was just an extension of his mind, his thoughts created it. The suit is a part of him. Although Killian planned things out, Trevor's mind co-created the alter ego of the Mandarin. It wasn't only Killian who gave those ideas life. And the ego of these characters makes them want to take responsibility for these creations, as Tony did in IM1. He has to admit he created it/made it real. Trevor's mind feels that without it, none of Killian's plans would be possible, or real.
What does any of that have to do with Ultron?

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I think Pym's whole reluctance to be a hero is going to be played around with and turned on its head, and we will see multiple versions of Pym.
"You don't need a Pym to create an Ultron".

I could be way off base, but I think pym's brain patterns will still be somewhere in the mix... however repressed they are.
And that Ant Man could be the most psychologically thrilling movie out of them, if each movie going forward from phase 2 has a sort of theme to it.
All of that is completely meaningless to people who aren't steeped in comics lore, AKA most of the audience.

And, again, my initial point: That kind of convoluted plot heavy weirdness isn't the kind of story Joss Whedon has ever displayed any kind of interest in writing. He likes personal stories. What you describe here isn't a personal story. Shifting the responsibility of creating Ultron to someone else the audience already knows is a personal story.

I think the fact is that in Avengers 2, Hank Pym will have absolutely nothing to do with creating Ultron. I see no reason to assume that this will have a negative impact on the film, so we should probably just accept it. It's not like it's the first time they've shifted characters around like that in these movies.

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:28 AM   #398
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No there doesn't. You just have him not be the guy. Why do you need to explain why he's not the guy?
Joss even said in a previous interview at Comic Con that this is the MCU, not the comics. He will take what he wants to use and let the rest fall by the way side.

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:38 AM   #399
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What I'm suggesting isn't necessarily time travel, it has more to do with parallel realities just to make things a little more clear, although the time gem would allow Ultron to break into Limbo, a dimension between all times, and upload his consciousness there for backup cloud storage.

Time shifting around the Avengers, no one actually traveling through time, although Pym's mind would travel through Immortus's limbo. Divergences in timelines, rather than actual time travel itself. More like what Cherokees saying, things coming out of the darkside/negative energies. Going through other dimensions rather than time... Time loops and visions of the future. Oracle industries and the "cloud software".
Prophecies and visions from Collector and the Vanir, ways that the timelines can change and "Destiny" can be altered, or the alternate Nemesis versions of characters' created.
About Pym's destiny being altered by being stopped in its tracks by an ultron who turns out to be multiversal, rather than manipulating any one time directly.

After giving it a body the world would shift around Stark Tower like in the EMH episode with Kang. inside the towers/ limbo zones they're safe, and because of Collector and Immortus there are heroes on backup. In Avengers 3 when Thanos does a lot of damage Next and New Avengers, could be brought in eventually, because if Ultron has any gem Thanos would probably want it.

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Old 08-01-2013, 09:45 AM   #400
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Originally Posted by TRM View Post
What I'm suggesting isn't necessarily time travel, it has more to do with parallel realities just to make things a little more clear, although the time gem would allow Ultron to break into Limbo, a dimension between all times, and upload his consciousness there for backup cloud storage.

Time shifting around the Avengers, no one actually traveling through time, although Pym's mind would travel through Immortus's limbo. Divergences in timelines, rather than actual time travel itself. More like what Cherokees saying, things coming out of the darkside/negative energies. Going through other dimensions rather than time... Time loops and visions of the future. Oracle industries and the "cloud software".
Prophecies and visions from Collector and the Vanir, ways that the timelines can change and "Destiny" can be altered, or the alternate Nemesis versions of characters' created.
About Pym's destiny being altered by being stopped in its tracks by an ultron who turns out to be multiversal, rather than manipulating any one time directly.

After giving it a body the world would shift around Stark Tower like in the EMH episode with Kang. inside the towers/ limbo zones they're safe, and because of Collector and Immortus there are heroes on backup. In Avengers 3 when Thanos does a lot of damage Next and New Avengers, could be brought in eventually, because if Ultron has any gem Thanos would probably want it.
What would be the point of that besides finding a way for Pym to not be the guy who created Ultron but then have him actually be the guy who created Ultron by way of a technicality?

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