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Old 08-11-2013, 12:55 PM   #676
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

But BW has been powered up in the comics. Why wouldnt it work in a movie?

Oh and my point with mentioning Bourne Legacy is that REnner character has been powered up in that film - a supposedly realistic spy thriller set in the real world and in modern times. Giving BW and Hawkeye a (slight) leg up in a spy thriller inspired SUPERHERO MOVIE makes all the sense in the world. No one would even bat an eye.

And Cap is used to teammates that match or over-match him. I think he can handle it. Cap is about way more than his rather ho-hum power set. Hes the ultimate soldier, the ultimate teammate, the ultimate field general, the ultimate protector of the American ideal. Cant wait to see him go hand to hand with half a dozen baddies at a time, but thats not what sets him apart.

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At the risk of being totally offensive...there's a quote from Ghandi about Christianity that can be reappropriated for this.

"I like your Christopher Nolan, but I do not like your Nolanites."

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Old 08-11-2013, 12:59 PM   #677
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I will stick to replying to the first clause, as the rest is a long run-on of irrelevance: no, working for SHIELD does not mean she must be superhuman. SHIELD has tons of personnel. Is Fury superhuman? Hill? Coulson? Barton? Are you seriously arguing that every single SHIELD agent is superhuman, and they've just never mentioned it?
Let's just give'em all the serum and really water down part of the uniqueness of Cap's character. LOL

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Yes, it is possible that there could be superhumans working for SHIELD and they simple haven't mentioned it, they're a SPY organization. Not every member, but some. BW having something inside her allows you to play up the Cold War angle of her character without having her be physically middle aged, which she clearly isn't. Perhaps she ages much slower than normal humans.
Why does she need a Cold War angle? She can have knowledge of the Winter Soldier without having to have been active during that time. Her Russian ties are enough to bridge the gap.

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:04 PM   #678
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But BW has been powered up in the comics. Why wouldnt it work in a movie?
This IS NOT the comics. This IS the MCU. Feige has already explained characters like Hawkeye and BW as being extremely skilled regular people, not powered up on special serums. It's what makes their characters more interesting and the obstacles larger when they encounter superpowered beings.

Some of you guys continue to ignore what's already been stated to you in order to attempt to directly translate their counterparts.

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Oh and my point with mentioning Bourne Legacy is that REnner character has been powered up in that film - a supposedly realistic spy thriller set in the real world and in modern times. Giving BW and Hawkeye a leg up in a spy thriller inspired SUPERHERO MOVIE makes all the sense in the world. No one would even bat an eye.

And Cap is used to teammates that match or over-match him. I think he can handle it.
So what .... that was a different movie that has absolutely nothing to do with the character Renner plays in the MCU. It's not about batting an eye, it's about not infringing on Cap's character. He's the white unicorn with the SS serum. Gratuitously giving everyone SS variants is utterly redundant and crappy story telling. I pray you never become a screenwriter.

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:07 PM   #679
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Forget the SS serum. Not talking about that. There are hundreds of ways they could skin this particular cat. It doesnt have to have anything to do with the SSS.

and a single plot point doesnt tell you anything about the quality of the screenplay. a powerd BW in the MCU could work just as well as a non-powered one in the hands of someone like Whedon. Childsplay in fact. No offense but youre not making any sense.

oh and that character in Bourne is very reminiscent of a Marvel character. Hed fit right in in the MCU. (by the way its called an ANALOGY. google it)

and im one of those people who think Marvel has been too faithful to the comics so far. the comics to me are reference points, not canon. An augmented BW is just a cool idea. Theres no danger of overshadowing Cap, so whats the problem? Make it happen Marvel!!

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At the risk of being totally offensive...there's a quote from Ghandi about Christianity that can be reappropriated for this.

"I like your Christopher Nolan, but I do not like your Nolanites."

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:12 PM   #680
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The CW angle makes for interesting story possibilities, especially for a spy. Feige is smart enough to realize that. This whole argument that BW aging slower or having augments somehow "diminishes" her character is ludicrous to me. Her CHARACTER is what makes her character interesting, her past, her desire for redemption, etc. Just like Cap having the SSS is not what makes his character cool, his honor, bravery, etc is. If people think that BW being "normal" is the thing that makes her most interesting, then they and I have very different views on what makes characters interesting. And Rock, insulting other poster for disagreeing with you makes you look like an ass. Other characters ALREADY have the SSS, so your argument is irrelevant.

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:18 PM   #681
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Forget the SS serum. Not talking about that. There are hundreds of ways they could skin this particular cat. It doesnt have to have anything to do with the SSS.

and a single plot point doesnt tell you anything about the quality of the screenplay. a powerd BW in the MCU could work just as well as a non-powered one in the hands of someone like Whedon. Childsplay in fact. No offense but youre not making any sense.

oh and that character in Bourne is very reminiscent of a Marvel character. Hed fit right in in the MCU. (by the way its called an ANALOGY. google it)

and im one of those people who think Marvel has been too faithful to the comics so far. the comics to me are reference points, not canon. An augmented BW is just a cool idea. Theres no danger of overshadowing Cap, so whats the problem? Make it happen Marvel!!
You keep dreamin' bud! BW is a non-powered hero as established in the MCU.

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The CW angle makes for interesting story possibilities, especially for a spy. Feige is smart enough to realize that. This whole argument that BW aging slower or having augments somehow "diminishes" her character is ludicrous to me. Her CHARACTER is what makes her character interesting, her past, her desire for redemption, etc. Just like Cap having the SSS is not what makes his character cool, his honor, bravery, etc is. If people think that BW being "normal" is the thing that makes her most interesting, then they and I have very different views on what makes characters interesting. And Rock, insulting other poster for disagreeing with you makes you look like an ass. Other characters ALREADY have the SSS, so your argument is irrelevant.
I didn't say that was the only thing that makes her interesting. It's part of the character as a whole ...... her and Hawkeye holding their own vs. other-wordly invaders and super powered beings makes for better story telling.

Your suggestions are cheap and gratuitous. I'm glad Feige and Co. do not agree with them.

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Old 08-11-2013, 01:21 PM   #682
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

You said it better, Loki. Cheers.

oh and im cool with her getting augmented at some future date. yknow in response to all the craziness of TA and Cap2. I sure as hell would.

and enough with hyperbolic name calling young man. not nice.

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At the risk of being totally offensive...there's a quote from Ghandi about Christianity that can be reappropriated for this.

"I like your Christopher Nolan, but I do not like your Nolanites."

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Old 08-11-2013, 03:47 PM   #683
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

As I said before, Itīs possible to swing a SSS/power boost BW scenario. It could explain her knowledge as well as physical performance and tie her to Bucky or Russia in some way in TWS. 100% possible.

But this is IMO not as likely to happen as her just being normal. First of all, BW and Hawkeye being humans is an important element. Second, I donīt see the reason for making that happen. If they want to connect her time in Russia to Bucky or something else, they could just do so without her being extremely old. She says in the MCU that she started training when she was very very young so maybe they donīt need to rewind 60 years but 15.

I just donīt see the reasons for doing a SSS-ish BW especially if it is at the expense of removing 1 of the 2 unpowered Avengers.
Cap if anyone is known for other qualities than his physique, yes, but it would feel as if too many had that SSS. It has ties to Hulk, RS, Cap and now BW?

Also I do not see Whedon writing it and I personally think that there is better story telling to be made that also involves the russia deal.

Itīs the same as The Destroyer discussion. It can be used for Ultrons armour, 100%. It will probably not happen tho, due to a number of things I wonīt bring up atm. Theories like this one are interesting but in a way "forced" possibilities that ppl put together. Itīs where a individualīs observations meet itīs imagination and taste(what he wants to see). When the taste and imagination plays a big part and the observations are tricky, things usually collide with other aspects of the movie. Nothing wrong with it it tho! Itīs just that Vibranium makes more sense and so does an unpowered BW if you think about it. I am just saying I believe this to be one of these situations where we need to think like Rock.

Also, I admit that I too see/hope things that arenīt entirely realistic (lol thinking about my infinity gauntlet theroies) but in these 2 cases (BW and Destroyer) I just wanted to say it "makes" less sense, IMO ofc.


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Old 08-12-2013, 02:39 AM   #684
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Not everything from the TWS is getting translated word for word. BW doesn't have to have a Cold War past, and she certainly doesn't need to be revealed as having powers. She's a "badass normal" just like Barton.
From the Fight Scenes of Avengers She looks more Tough then Barton
Not only she Takes down all the Aliens with her Fight Skills with Knife / Guns but also learn to Use their Weapons That shows how Intelligent she must be .
She Also Takes a blow from hulks Arm and still Fights Barton Almost Inhumanly .
Its also not Hidden that shield is Taking all the Actions it needed to Give a Hammering Response for Potential Threat like in Avengers they made weapons like Hydra so they can take Actions for making their Agents Powerful enough to combat Aliens .

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Old 08-12-2013, 04:41 AM   #685
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

I appreciate BW and Hawkeye just being highly skilled operatives way more than having them being augmented.

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Old 08-12-2013, 06:08 AM   #686
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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I appreciate BW and Hawkeye just being highly skilled operatives way more than having them being augmented.
I agree, it shows they ARE a lot like Steve and don't really have any super powers but are still Heroes

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Old 08-12-2013, 08:59 AM   #687
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Originally Posted by SilentWarriorZ View Post
From the Fight Scenes of Avengers She looks more Tough then Barton
Not only she Takes down all the Aliens with her Fight Skills with Knife / Guns but also learn to Use their Weapons That shows how Intelligent she must be .
She Also Takes a blow from hulks Arm and still Fights Barton Almost Inhumanly .
Its also not Hidden that shield is Taking all the Actions it needed to Give a Hammering Response for Potential Threat like in Avengers they made weapons like Hydra so they can take Actions for making their Agents Powerful enough to combat Aliens .
Huh? Their weapons were guns. Not sure why you think it takes super intelligence to learn how to use them.

She's a normal. There's no reason to think otherwise.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:19 AM   #688
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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Originally Posted by SilentWarriorZ View Post
From the Fight Scenes of Avengers She looks more Tough then Barton
Not only she Takes down all the Aliens with her Fight Skills with Knife / Guns but also learn to Use their Weapons That shows how Intelligent she must be .
She Also Takes a blow from hulks Arm and still Fights Barton Almost Inhumanly .
Its also not Hidden that shield is Taking all the Actions it needed to Give a Hammering Response for Potential Threat like in Avengers they made weapons like Hydra so they can take Actions for making their Agents Powerful enough to combat Aliens .
Yeah some things in the MCU could explain what you say and so could the comics. She was born in the 1920s and still is young 80 years later. She also met Cap and was saved by Wolverine back in the good old days, ohh and she trained together with Bucky.

But even if there are potential pieces to use, why use them?
I mean whatīs the reason for making her that way and not confirm/show it to us in the movies sheīs been in?

The only reasons I can see for giving her powers is if they really wanted to follow the comics. But there is no problem in doing essantially the same thing but with different circumstances. They use Ultron because he is an Avenger villain, but they donīt use Pym. Itīs because they can still bring in Ultron in a good way without Pym, it would be kinda forced to bring in Pym from nowhere
just so that we could have one of the best villains ever. Giving BW SSS could be considered just as forced.

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Old 08-12-2013, 08:05 PM   #689
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1000th time: It doesnt have to be the SSS or anything even related to it. SHIELD has developed/acquired various technologies over the years and who knows what the Russians might have come up with. anyway, this debate is pretty far off-topic and totally hypothetical.

on-topic: so Falcon gonna be in this thing?

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At the risk of being totally offensive...there's a quote from Ghandi about Christianity that can be reappropriated for this.

"I like your Christopher Nolan, but I do not like your Nolanites."
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:30 PM   #690
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

And augmented.

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Old 08-13-2013, 03:35 AM   #691
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Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Upgrade section 5

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1000th time: It doesnt have to be the SSS or anything even related to it. SHIELD has developed/acquired various technologies over the years and who knows what the Russians might have come up with. anyway, this debate is pretty far off-topic and totally hypothetical.

on-topic: so Falcon gonna be in this thing?
I personally haven't heard that either War-machine/Iron Patriot or Falcon would be in Age of Ultron.
I HOPE if they aren't, that it's mentioned SOMEWHERE what they're doing at least.

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Old 08-13-2013, 06:52 AM   #692
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I personally haven't heard that either War-machine/Iron Patriot or Falcon would be in Age of Ultron.
I HOPE if they aren't, that it's mentioned SOMEWHERE what they're doing at least.
Itīs too early to say but I donīt think we will see any of them in AoU actually!

It depends on where they put Falcon in TWS and how they "do" AoU but yeah I too want an explanation. If itīs how TWS and AoU plays out or if we get a short scene or line about Falcon and IP/WM doesnīt matter to me though.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:18 AM   #693
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Considering Rhodes was more military and SHIELD didn't like Tony Stark much, yet went with Iron Man but not with War Machine in The Avengers

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:24 AM   #694
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My theory about Widow possibly being beyond normal comes not from some blind devotion the comics (which I am more than aware are not the same as the MCU) but from the actual film The Avengers itself. IMHO Joss, in the Black Widow/Hawkeye post Loki take over recovery scene, clearly implies that SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened to Black Widow in the past. Hawkeye's list of complaints about knowing how it feels to being "taken over" and "pulled apart and reassembled" and Widow's response "You know I do" lays the ground work for this entirely reasonable speculation. Further evidence can be seen in her clearly above human female fighting capabilities on the battlefield during the invasion. The final piece of evidence IMHO is her inclusion in The Winter Soldier which, as most of us are aware, deals with very similar concepts and themes. And it likely has a Russian connection too.

So this is very reasonable speculation that is not based on "because the comics said so" (like those Hank Pym-ers out there).

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:29 AM   #695
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My theory about Widow possibly being beyond normal comes not from some blind devotion the comics (which I am more than aware are not the same as the MCU) but from the actual film The Avengers itself. IMHO Joss, in the Black Widow/Hawkeye post Loki take over recovery scene, clearly implies that SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened to Black Widow in the past. Hawkeye's list of complaints about knowing how it feels to being "taken over" and "pulled apart and reassembled" and Widow's response "You know I do" lays the ground work for this entirely reasonable speculation. Further evidence can be seen in her clearly above human female fighting capabilities on the battlefield during the invasion. The final piece of evidence IMHO is her inclusion in The Winter Soldier which, as most of us are aware, deals with very similar concepts and themes. And it likely has a Russian connection too.

So this is very reasonable speculation that is not based on "because the comics said so" (like those Hank Pym-ers out there).
Sure, but isn't it even more likely that the "pulled apart and reassembled" line refers to psychological manipulation more than physical? That, too, ties into the TWS story.

Other than her physics-defying commandeering of the glider (not the first time physics has been defied by a normal human in CBMs), there was nothing in the final fight that pointed to her being enhanced.

At this point, given how the directors and producers have labeled her a non-powered human, it would be a pretty dumb twist to retcon her character.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:34 AM   #696
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My theory about Widow possibly being beyond normal comes not from some blind devotion the comics (which I am more than aware are not the same as the MCU) but from the actual film The Avengers itself. IMHO Joss, in the Black Widow/Hawkeye post Loki take over recovery scene, clearly implies that SOMETHING out of the ordinary happened to Black Widow in the past. Hawkeye's list of complaints about knowing how it feels to being "taken over" and "pulled apart and reassembled" and Widow's response "You know I do" lays the ground work for this entirely reasonable speculation. Further evidence can be seen in her clearly above human female fighting capabilities on the battlefield during the invasion. The final piece of evidence IMHO is her inclusion in The Winter Soldier which, as most of us are aware, deals with very similar concepts and themes. And it likely has a Russian connection too.

So this is very reasonable speculation that is not based on "because the comics said so" (like those Hank Pym-ers out there).
I don't really mind Ultron being created by Tony but that's kind of insulting

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:36 AM   #697
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It wasn't meant to be. But the whole argument of the Pym rage around here was: "that's not the way it was in the comics." RS tried to turn my BW hypothesis into that argument and that was fallacious reasoning, so Im correcting him with examples.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:41 AM   #698
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It wasn't meant to be. But the whole argument of the Pym rage around here was: "that's not the way it was in the comics." RS tried to turn my BW hypothesis into that argument and that was fallacious reasoning, so Im correcting him with examples.
But those that dislike the Ultron change susually bring some good points, like bringing Iron Man even more to the spotlight and robbing Pym of one of his primary mythos.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:42 AM   #699
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1) Sure, but isn't it even more likely that the "pulled apart and reassembled" line refers to psychological manipulation more than physical? That, too, ties into the TWS story.

2) Other than her physics-defying commandeering of the glider (not the first time physics has been defied by a normal human in CBMs), there was nothing in the final fight that pointed to her being enhanced.

3)At this point, given how the directors and producers have labeled her a non-powered human, it would be a pretty dumb twist to retcon her character.
1) No doubt. That's why I said "something", but it certainly could reasonably be physical as well. It's hard to know exactly because she wasn't specific, but it was clearly substantial.

2) That one act alone is worth questioning. Whedon is a very thoughtful writer/director. I don't think he'd be so flippant about such an unexplained act. I think he WANTS the fans to have lots of questions about BW.

3) it wouldn't be a "retcon" if it wasn't already referenced and demonstrated in a prior film would it?

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:49 AM   #700
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1) No doubt. That's why I said something, but it certainly could reasonably be physical as well. It's hard to know exactly because she wasn't specific, but it was clearly substantial.

2) That one act alone is worth questioning. Whedon is a very thoughtful writer/director. I don't think he'd be so flippant about such an unexplained act. I think he WANTS the fans to have lots of questions about BW.

3) it wouldn't be a "retcon" if it wasn't already referenced and demonstrated in a prior film would it?
To me, it's reaching, but we won't know for sure until TWS comes out. And personally, I can buy Widow making that leap way more than I can Hawkeye surviving getting his head slammed into a metal beam (also written by the thoughtful Whedon). I think this is a case where we should probably accept what we've seen at face value rather than create something that isn't there.

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