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Old 08-26-2013, 04:39 PM   #501
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I agree that all those themes are there, it was deep, thoughtful movie. But, I do think it could have been greater than it was if it fully did justice to the themes it raised,

..and I thought the huge metropolis attacks were a bit un-realised and sketchy with not enough of a feel of what kind of people live in Metropolis, where they are, what they think of Supes and whether they know he is the good guy, etc. They could have made a little more of Perry and Jenny as representing the public - such as before Supes flies off to fight Zod a second where Perry says "I run the Daily Planet, we support heroes like you. I'll tell the people you're on our side" and Jenny cheering. As it was humanity accepting Supe as their hero was all shown through the military characters.

But I guess establishing Metropolis is not as important as Gotham, as the Bat was created in Gotham, swore to fight for Gotham etc. Wheras Superman has already been through Krypton and Smallville and Metropolis is where he ends up. So there is not as much need to meet the mob, the cops, the politicians etc as in a Bat film. I guess what we do know from MOS is that it creates journalists clever enough to find Superman and Villains clever and ambitious enough to have big corps everywhere and that will eventually want to challenge him.
Your first part about the themes being undeveloped or not being fully done justice towards are somewhat determined by what you feel the theme was really about. Superman finished what his father started and decided to make his own choices about what to do with the kryptonians. It's an epic in that sense.

The idea of Lois knowing his identity and the fate of the world being at risk unless she spills the beans about it and yet she refuses to reveal Clark's secret. This means a lot to Superman and he mentions that. Also leaving him with someone to trust and give humanity a chance.

That's the thing about Superman, he means so much and stands for so many different exemplary ideals and 'Man of Steel' not only triumphs in raising new questions 'Why didnt you come with me?' etc..But in doing justice to the nature of who Superman really is and what he does for the greater good.

That's a good point about wanting a few more dialogue scenes between Perry and Jenny with Superman. Especially at the end, but remember that this is literally Superman's first day or two actually on the job. And he saves people from the first time we see Clark on the oil rig (after he gets saved himself which I think could lead to some of the decisions he makes over the course of the story). I'd imagine that the sequel will deal more with Superman's relations via the Daily Planet and so on.

Also keep in mind that Gotham City has always been more crime driven than Metropolis. So to make the city of Metropolis out to be hopelessly crime or drug ridden wouldn't really make too much sense to me. Even though you seem to agree with this notion.

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Old 08-26-2013, 07:29 PM   #502
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I think half the problem is that they were trying to cram too many ideas and story points that are big enough to be deserving of so much more time, into one small part of a film.

I liked the look of Krypton and the feel of it, but I think trying to tack a mini movie onto the beginning of the film was a mistake. In fact, slotting in a 'little bit of this' and a 'little bit of that' with Superman's mythology and origin from various comics and their own imaginations, meant that NONE of the 'bits' were fleshed out... and all those little bits weren't woven together neatly, they were just cut and pasted next to each other in this really disjointed way.

Seems like Goyer/Snyder couldn't make up their minds which kind of Superman story they wanted to tell, and so the characterisation and the themes become inconsistent.
I was hoping they would've started off with the war on Krypton instead of watching Lara give birth. Later on when Clark discovers the fortress, Jor-El basically gave him an explanation to Krypton's destruction. I loved the look of Krypton. It was something different than the ice planet we're used to seeing, but I felt like they were trying to pull off an Avatar in the beginning.

I don't know a whole lot about Superman's mythology, so some stuff might not has bothered me as much as others. I just felt like they went overboard with the opening sequence. I would have preferred short and simple, rather than long and fancy.

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Old 08-26-2013, 08:05 PM   #503
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I was hoping they would've started off with the war on Krypton instead of watching Lara give birth. Later on when Clark discovers the fortress, Jor-El basically gave him an explanation to Krypton's destruction. I loved the look of Krypton. It was something different than the ice planet we're used to seeing, but I felt like they were trying to pull off an Avatar in the beginning.

I don't know a whole lot about Superman's mythology, so some stuff might not has bothered me as much as others. I just felt like they went overboard with the opening sequence. I would have preferred short and simple, rather than long and fancy.
Well for me the beginning was unique and love the way the movie started of how Superman was born.. in other words Epic.. not the simple start that cmb has.. but thats just my opinion

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Old 08-26-2013, 08:13 PM   #504
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Your first part about the themes being undeveloped or not being fully done justice towards are somewhat determined by what you feel the theme was really about. Superman finished what his father started and decided to make his own choices about what to do with the kryptonians. It's an epic in that sense.

The idea of Lois knowing his identity and the fate of the world being at risk unless she spills the beans about it and yet she refuses to reveal Clark's secret. This means a lot to Superman and he mentions that. Also leaving him with someone to trust and give humanity a chance.

That's the thing about Superman, he means so much and stands for so many different exemplary ideals and 'Man of Steel' not only triumphs in raising new questions 'Why didnt you come with me?' etc..But in doing justice to the nature of who Superman really is and what he does for the greater good.

That's a good point about wanting a few more dialogue scenes between Perry and Jenny with Superman. Especially at the end, but remember that this is literally Superman's first day or two actually on the job. And he saves people from the first time we see Clark on the oil rig (after he gets saved himself which I think could lead to some of the decisions he makes over the course of the story). I'd imagine that the sequel will deal more with Superman's relations via the Daily Planet and so on.

Also keep in mind that Gotham City has always been more crime driven than Metropolis. So to make the city of Metropolis out to be hopelessly crime or drug ridden wouldn't really make too much sense to me. Even though you seem to agree with this notion.
Yeah this action was really explained (2 ALIENS FIGHTING) SO I don't see the comparisson with TRansformers (Even the Avengers has more of Michael Bay style and people say nothing about it) I agree they're confusing between underdeveloped to what they wanted to feel of the movie as to much bla bla bla and people will say the movie was too overdeveloped I wanted action bla bla bla... the characters were great developed according to the story told and the origin of superman in a REALISTIC WORLD which made the movie great but not perfect)...
I liked your post btw
The movie

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Old 08-26-2013, 10:35 PM   #505
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MOS is great. but to many, superman is about saving. i think most of the complaint about the extensive action and destruction can be addressed if the audience can see superman doing some saving during the last act.

even though superman has infact saved the billions, but visually they only have seen destruction, destruction and more destruction.

a lot of audience needs to see it in order to get it.

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Old 08-27-2013, 10:11 PM   #506
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MOS is great. but to many, superman is about saving. i think most of the complaint about the extensive action and destruction can be addressed if the audience can see superman doing some saving during the last act.

even though superman has infact saved the billions, but visually they only have seen destruction, destruction and more destruction.

a lot of audience needs to see it in order to get it.
I know in SR was the opossite and people were against.. too much savings.. this superman doesn't punch anybody.. we need action.. I guess many people can't never be satisficed... the quote about saving all the planet defeating zod and preventing the world engine from terraforming earth... But I guess the sequel can get also savings at the begining connecting both movies even from this disaster or from incoming disasters...

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Old 08-28-2013, 07:40 AM   #507
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I know in SR was the opossite and people were against.. too much savings.. this superman doesn't punch anybody.. we need action.. I guess many people can't never be satisficed... the quote about saving all the planet defeating zod and preventing the world engine from terraforming earth... But I guess the sequel can get also savings at the begining connecting both movie even from this disaster or from incoming disasters...
Nobody complaint there was too much saving in SR. I think it was the saving action that made SR watchable, n liked by many.

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Old 08-28-2013, 01:27 PM   #508
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Interesting talk.

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Old 08-28-2013, 04:14 PM   #509
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Nobody complaint there was too much saving in SR. I think it was the saving action that made SR watchable, n liked by many.
I heard many complaints that only were punny threats... we can assume was that...

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Old 08-28-2013, 10:35 PM   #510
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Nobody complaint there was too much saving in SR. I think it was the saving action that made SR watchable, n liked by many.
There are people who seem to believe that a Superman movie MUST have fighting and that saving lives alone isn't enough. So many people complained he didn't punch anyone in SR as if it's an absolute requirement, and then trivialized all the heroics as him lifting stuff.

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Old 08-28-2013, 10:47 PM   #511
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There are people who seem to believe that a Superman movie MUST have fighting and that saving lives alone isn't enough. So many people complained he didn't punch anyone in SR as if it's an absolute requirement, and then trivialized all the heroics as him lifting stuff.
Yeah but the difference is that in MOS we see a Superman with no experience that is finding his place in the world and dealing the invasion the best way... in other Superman movies we see a Superman with experience.. that's for me the difference... and in the sequel we can see the Superman experienced...

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Old 08-29-2013, 12:59 AM   #512
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzzhT-8WfQs

a very funny parody

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Old 08-29-2013, 01:02 AM   #513
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Yeah but the difference is that in MOS we see a Superman with no experience that is finding his place in the world and dealing the invasion the best way... in other Superman movies we see a Superman with experience.. that's for me the difference... and in the sequel we can see the Superman experienced...
are you saying he isn't smart enough?

just kid.

i think the major complaints can be lump as 2:-
1. pa kent
2. no 'visually' saving in the last act. (except for lois lane) /(people really wanna see him in the bluetights do some saving. lol)

then. no movie is perfect.
MOS is still great and very entertaining.

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Old 08-29-2013, 05:34 PM   #514
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are you saying he isn't smart enough?

just kid.

i think the major complaints can be lump as 2:-
1. pa kent
2. no 'visually' saving in the last act. (except for lois lane) /(people really wanna see him in the bluetights do some saving. lol)

then. no movie is perfect.
MOS is still great and very entertaining.
IMO they can connect events MOS2-MOS alla TDK showing Superman saving people from MEtropolis disaster... the movie ended in the best way IMO clark arriving at the DP...

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Old 08-30-2013, 12:53 AM   #515
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IMO they can connect events MOS2-MOS alla TDK showing Superman saving people from MEtropolis disaster... the movie ended in the best way IMO clark arriving at the DP...
that would be freaking awesome!!! as the opening of MOS2!!!

but the chance is slim...

btw, it seems like they already have the story for MOS2 since the shooting will start next February!!! i thought they would start from sketch for the story. and it seems like Batman isn't an aftermath. lol

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Old 08-30-2013, 02:23 AM   #516
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The reason why I can't take a lot of the complaints that people had regarding the destruction is because a lot of them make it as if Superman was directly responsible for the destruction of Metropolis when they conveniently forget that it was Zod's Black Zero ship that decimated most fit while Superman was busy taking down the World Engine on the other side of the planet.

Frankly, it makes me sad as a Superman fan to see how people make fun of Superman for some of the most stupidest things at times. I can wholeheartedly and even agree with some of the other complaints, but when it comes to the destruction, I can't agree at all on how Superman is being blamed for most of that destruction. If people actually watched the film closely, you'd see the Superman wasn't even responsible for most of it that it was mainly Zod and company that laid waste to it.

This type of destruction takes place so many times in the comics and animation and it's only now when it's adapted on screen that some people ***** about it.

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Old 08-30-2013, 02:36 AM   #517
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The reason why I can't take a lot of the complaints that people had regarding the destruction is because a lot of them make it as if Superman was directly responsible for the destruction of Metropolis when they conveniently forget that it was Zod's Black Zero ship that decimated most fit while Superman was busy taking down the World Engine on the other side of the planet.

Frankly, it makes me sad as a Superman fan to see how people make fun of Superman for some of the most stupidest things at times. I can wholeheartedly and even agree with some of the other complaints, but when it comes to the destruction, I can't agree at all on how Superman is being blamed for most of that destruction. If people actually watched the film closely, you'd see the Superman wasn't even responsible for most of it that it was mainly Zod and company that laid waste to it.

This type of destruction takes place so many times in the comics and animation and it's only now when it's adapted on screen that some people ***** about it.

The complaints about the destruction get to me too. Especially since the film goes out of it's way to not present Superman's direct actions (as opposed to the Gravity Beam attack) as being the cause of any citizen's deaths. He get's knocked into a couple of empty buildings or has Zod heat blast a building's structural supports... Neither of those things are Superman's fault.

On the other hand, even while I disagree with almost all the complaints against the film, I actually find it heartening that Superman as a character engenders such a passionate response. His day in the pop culture sun is far from over it seems. I'd wager that there will be some new mass media Superman project either out or being prepared for release when I'm getting ready to knock on heaven's gate as an old man. (Crossed fingers I make it to old man status.)

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Old 08-30-2013, 04:33 AM   #518
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The reason why I can't take a lot of the complaints that people had regarding the destruction is because a lot of them make it as if Superman was directly responsible for the destruction of Metropolis when they conveniently forget that it was Zod's Black Zero ship that decimated most fit while Superman was busy taking down the World Engine on the other side of the planet.

Frankly, it makes me sad as a Superman fan to see how people make fun of Superman for some of the most stupidest things at times. I can wholeheartedly and even agree with some of the other complaints, but when it comes to the destruction, I can't agree at all on how Superman is being blamed for most of that destruction. If people actually watched the film closely, you'd see the Superman wasn't even responsible for most of it that it was mainly Zod and company that laid waste to it.

This type of destruction takes place so many times in the comics and animation and it's only now when it's adapted on screen that some people ***** about it.
you can't win in a complaint. they would say he was directly responsible of leading G. Zod to the earth. therefore, every following things that happened he should be blamed on. Lol.

anyway, i think MOS is a huge success in a way. Donner's / Christopher Reeve's superman was so influential. you can see all the films superman related had have its' influences. MOS managed to stay clear possible from it and create on its own attributes and yet faithful to the characters. that's a huge achievement.

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Old 08-30-2013, 08:48 AM   #519
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The complaints about the destruction get to me too. Especially since the film goes out of it's way to not present Superman's direct actions (as opposed to the Gravity Beam attack) as being the cause of any citizen's deaths. He get's knocked into a couple of empty buildings or has Zod heat blast a building's structural supports... Neither of those things are Superman's fault.

On the other hand, even while I disagree with almost all the complaints against the film, I actually find it heartening that Superman as a character engenders such a passionate response. His day in the pop culture sun is far from over it seems. I'd wager that there will be some new mass media Superman project either out or being prepared for release when I'm getting ready to knock on heaven's gate as an old man. (Crossed fingers I make it to old man status.)
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you can't win in a complaint. they would say he was directly responsible of leading G. Zod to the earth. therefore, every following things that happened he should be blamed on. Lol.

anyway, i think MOS is a huge success in a way. Donner's / Christopher Reeve's superman was so influential. you can see all the films superman related had have its' influences. MOS managed to stay clear possible from it and create on its own attributes and yet faithful to the characters. that's a huge achievement.
Agreed.

And what shocks me is that I don't see any other hero getting nowhere as much flack that Superman has been getting for both the destruction and for Zod's death.

I mean you have Captain America, someone that most people can agree to have the highest moral compass within the entire MCU regarding its heroes, and yet we've seen the guy kill an Hydra soldier by throwing a knife at the person's back and even throwing an mercenary to his death from the hellcarrier. And yet, do you hear anyone complaining or crying blasphemy about it? Nope.

And when you think about it, with the exception of "Batman and Robin", Batman has been directly responsible for the deaths of his villains within every other film that he's appeared in.

1. Batman: He killed the Joker

2. Batman Returns: He killed several of Penguin's thugs and even unleashed a hoard of Bats at Penguin that caused him to fall to his doom.

3. Batman Forever: Batman threw coins into the air in order to confuse Two-Face, which made Two-Face lose his balance and fall to his death.

4. Batman Begins: He left Ra's to die within the Train as it crashed into the building.

5. The Dark Knight: Pushed Harvey to his death in order to save Gordon's Son. Regarding this scene in particular, the people who have defended Batman have used the same reasons why Superman had to kill Zod. They say that Batman was exhausted, that he had no other choice, and that it was pure adrenaline. Well folks, it was the same thing with Superman and if you try to say otherwise, then clearly, you haven't seen the film and if you really have, then you've just proven the point that you are one bias person.

6. The Dark Knight Rises: Batman pretty much killed one of Talia's drivers and forced Talia to dive to her death.


My point is that Batman pretty much killed people in his last two films, despite the emphasis on his "no kill" policy because the situation demanded it due to the high stakes that were presented at the time.

In "Man of Steel", prior to his fight with Zod, Superman had just destroyed the "World Engine", which took everything that he had, to the point where he was left unconscious and exhausted for awhile before he could regain some of his energy back. Then he crashed Zod's ship into the ground and considering that he wasn't able to get back up until some time afterwards clearly means that it took energy out of him.

And after all of that, Superman had to take on Zod, who was on a killing rampage at the time and who was also someone that's had way more training than Superman in actual combat. And let's not conveniently forget that Superman had only just learned to use his powers in a combative way, let alone cut loose for the first time in his life after having been told several times by his father to suppress them as much as possible due to his fear that Clark would be exposed and shun from humanity.

Yeah, I'll admit that I'm not the biggest fan of an the amount of CGI that was needed for the sequences, especially since we were given such a good take of a realistic looking world at the beginning of the film. However, given the scale of the battle, it was inevitable, and honestly, this crap happens all the time within the comics, where Superman is actually experienced and has training to deal with situations like that.

People don't ***** about that or what they see on television. Hell, if I had a nickel for every time I read someone saying on how they wanted to see superman take on a villain on the big screen like how he took on Darkseid at the end of "Justice League Unlimited", I'd be rich enough to convince Christian Bale to come back for the role of Batman.

And when Snyder finally brings that to the big screen, people cry foul and keep mentioning on the boards on how they hope that their SUPERPOWERED heroes never have to go through a battle of that scale on film (despite the irony that they have within the comics and animated series several times).

It's like people just want to find reasons to be pissed off at Superman or something.

Honestly, I feel like one of the biggest reasons why people are so taken back by the destruction that we saw in the film is due to how Snyder shot it to make it look very realistic in a eerie way. He didn't take the destruction and death toll as some joke or cliche matter like so many other comic book films tend to do. He took it seriously when it came to showing that people were dying by the flocks from Zod's actions and that's why it struck a chord with some people.

For good or for worse, people automatically expect for Superman to save everyone, to always make it in the nick of time and stop such catastrophes from taking place, before we have to see it with our own eyes, but the truth is, he's no God and he can't be everywhere and save everyone at once.

Superman is not Superman for his ability to save everyone and prevent every major disaster from taking place. Superman is superman due to his will to never give up on trying to save as many lives as he can....to never give up trying on saving everyone.

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:04 AM   #520
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Superman is held to a higher standard .
I dont think it is right , but it is true .

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Old 08-30-2013, 09:38 PM   #521
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Herolee is seriously pissed off by the double standard.
I think somehow it has to do with reeve's superman too. Light, humorous and fun. And most of all, he did save everyone, including kitten and bringing lois from her death. .
it's a cultural shock mainly I guess.

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Old 08-31-2013, 04:25 PM   #522
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Superman is held to a higher standard .
I dont think it is right , but it is true .
In America ? You are damn right. Certain characters can be changed and fiddled with, and critics will be okay with it or even on board. From my perspective, after reading alot of MOS's reviews, it wasn't even the pacing or character development issues critics had with Steel, it was simply they didn't like the inclusion of science fiction into the Superman mythos. "It felt like a sci-fi action flick more than a Superman film." That's understandable. But i'm glad Superman was changed up. Film-wise, the character needed to be changed up and re-vamped to fit todays' audiences.
I've seen the film several times now, and it suffers from pacing issues. I bet you Snyder's nearly 3 hour cut might have fixed some of those issues. Or maybe made them worse, I don't know. It's just a classic case of fitting so much story into 2.5 hours. While I really, thoroughly enjoyed the film, I didn't "love" it. It was the best Superman film we've received since Superman II, but it's marketing didn't live up to the film's final product.
Then again, I was expecting this film to be the greatest thing since sliced bread.
Synder, I love the guy to death, but all his films have the same pacing issues. That could really bite Superman vs. Batman in the ass. What if Snyder goes crazy and starts to bring too much of Batman's story into Superman's ? Or vice-versa ?


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Old 08-31-2013, 04:29 PM   #523
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whether Snyder's 3 hour assembly cut fixed the problems or made them worse, i still want to see it

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Old 08-31-2013, 05:50 PM   #524
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found it on FB

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Old 08-31-2013, 07:07 PM   #525
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