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Old 07-29-2013, 09:09 AM   #51
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

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wolverine was in japan for two years? What? lol News to me.
No. The Wolverine ends with he and Yukio boarding a plane leaving Japan and she mentions to him on the plane that Mariko has paid for them to go anywhere they want around the world.

So we're to assume that he probably spent those two years traveling with Yukio and was finally coming back to the US in the mid-credit scene.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:11 AM   #52
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

Resurrecting characters is honestly the MOST I can see Singer doing. He has no reason to excise The Last Stand's events or the events of Origins: Wolverine, and he's not going to retcon a movie that was just released.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:30 AM   #53
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

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Resurrecting characters is honestly the MOST I can see Singer doing. He has no reason to excise The Last Stand's events or the events of Origins: Wolverine, and he's not going to retcon a movie that was just released.
I agree.I think trying to resurrect Jean now Is a major problem considering how
closly the plot of The Wolverine Is based on his guilt for killing her.But,using time travel to resurrect Cyclops and allowing them to use psylocke In future that Is
all possable.

And an altered future Is more likely If X-Force moves forward.

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:42 AM   #54
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Resurrecting characters is honestly the MOST I can see Singer doing. He has no reason to excise The Last Stand's events or the events of Origins: Wolverine, and he's not going to retcon a movie that was just released.
Honestly, this film feels like it's being set up to make sure that continuity from Days of Future Past and onward will be on the same page because we know that Fox's ultimate goal is crossover with the rebooted Fantastic Four franchise.

This weekend, I watched X-Men, X2, and X-Men The Last Stand, and the Wolverine in one sitting. In all honesty, those four films end the Logan saga. All of them just fit together nicely. It's the prequel films that start all the contradictions. And yet, a major factor of Days of Future Past is the First Class cast.

I just...the more I think about this film based on what I've seen from the four films I've listed, the more I just don't know if I want it...even with that great post credit sequence at the end of the Wolverine because what Magneto says in that sequence does in fact echo back to something Stryker said to Wolverine in X2, talking about someone will finish what he started. The events of X-Men The Last Stand were not that. But, from the looks of it, the events of Days of Future Past could be that.

When you get to brass tacks, First Class should've been a complete reboot instead of hedging its bets as to what type of film it is, in terms of continuity.

I just don't know how Singer can fix continuity to the series/cherry pick continuity from the series and tell a complete story in this film.

I've longed for Singer to return to the franchise, but I don't know with these circumstances because Fox needs X-Men to viable now because they want to keep the rights.

Can we just call this thing mess?

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Old 07-29-2013, 09:44 AM   #55
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He doesn't have to resurrect Jean through time travel or an altered timeline - she's the Phoenix, that's all they need to explain. She's died once and come back, how is this time any different.

Not to mention, I know her presence in The Wolverine was simply a hallucination but the ending with her in the white room could certainly be circled back and used as the White Hot Room if they really wanted too.

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Old 07-29-2013, 10:17 AM   #56
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Sorry for the double post - but I think another thing to keep in mind is that we're all assuming that the reason they are doing this storyline is to right the timeline in the future when it could almost certainly end the way the original comic run of Days of Future Past ended - When Kitty Pryde travels back to the future the timeline is still the same and they just figure out that the past has just broken off and created an alternate timeline.

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Old 07-29-2013, 11:18 AM   #57
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Honestly, this film feels like it's being set up to make sure that continuity from Days of Future Past and onward will be on the same page because we know that Fox's ultimate goal is crossover with the rebooted Fantastic Four franchise.
They already have a workable continuity that they can move forward with post-DoFP.

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It's the prequel films that start all the contradictions.
The only contradiction is Xavier walking.

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When you get to brass tacks, First Class should've been a complete reboot instead of hedging its bets as to what type of film it is, in terms of continuity.
It didn't 'hedge its bet' continuity-wise. It's clearly meant to be a prequel to the franchise.

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I just don't know how Singer can fix continuity to the series/cherry pick continuity from the series and tell a complete story in this film.
There's really not that much to fix.

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Can we just call this thing mess?
Why? There aren't actually that many problems with the continuity of the franchise.

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Old 07-29-2013, 12:24 PM   #58
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William Stryker is killed in the past which stops the events of X2 from occurring which stops the events of X3 from occurring which brings Jean and Cyclops back to life and resets everything from the original trilogy other than the first movie.
2023: Failed Future. Wolverine fails. Everyone dies. Bishop and/or Blink somehow relays the information from this future to the past at some unknown time frame prior to TLS.

OT timeframe (implied but not seen in the trilogy): The information from Bishop/Blink is intercepted by Xavier, who begins Danger Room sequence training to prepare mutants for the Sentinels.

1973: Wolverine tries to stop Trask along with the rest of the X-Men, but it leads to Stryker discovering the power of Cerebro and going through with X-2. Sentinels are postponed but not entirely put of the picture.

2013: Wolverine is sent back to 1973 from the original timeline by Kitty and another mutant (possibly Xavier's twin). Xavier is already dead in this timeline. This is the twist of the movie. The time travel had already taken place.

DoFP (present day): We are in the altered timeline. Wolverine was successful preventing the war from escalating into the events of the OT. Magneto/Xavier end up working together in this new timeline after the events of X-2. Cyclops is alive as is Xavier. However, work remains to eliminate the Sentinels entirely. The plot also revolves around moving Wolverine back in time to complete the "time loop" to ensure he completes what is intended in the 1970's. However, in the new timeline, Kitty is injured, and they need Rogue to complete the loop.



In summary, this allows you to cut between both the past and present scenes, while maintaining the suspension of belief. The future is now unraveling before our eyes while we cut to what had taken place in the 1970's. So there will not be a separate "alternate" timeline. The timeline we see in the present will essentially be the "new" timeline where the changes have already happened, but more work remains. The original timeline will be a flashback, last minute reveal that bridges all the dead characters that have returned in the new timeline. That's what I predict...


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Old 07-29-2013, 12:27 PM   #59
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

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No. The Wolverine ends with he and Yukio boarding a plane leaving Japan and she mentions to him on the plane that Mariko has paid for them to go anywhere they want around the world.

So we're to assume that he probably spent those two years traveling with Yukio and was finally coming back to the US in the mid-credit scene.
I totally missed the part where it mentioned that the credits scene was two years later. :/

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:07 PM   #60
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

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2023: Failed Future. Wolverine fails. Everyone dies. Bishop and/or Blink somehow relays the information from this future to the past at some unknown time frame prior to TLS.

OT timeframe (implied but not seen in the trilogy): The information from Bishop/Blink is intercepted by Xavier, who begins Danger Room sequence training to prepare mutants for the Sentinels.

1973: Wolverine tries to stop Trask along with the rest of the X-Men, but it leads to Stryker discovering the power of Cerebro and going through with X-2. Sentinels are post-poned but not entirely put of the picture.

2013: Wolverine is sent back to 1973 from the original timeline by Kitty and another mutant (possibly Xavier's twin). Xavier is already dead in this timeline. This is the twist of the movie. The time travel had already taken place.

DoFP (present day): We are in the altered timeline. Wolverine was successful preventing the war from escalating into the events of the OT. Magneto/Xavier end up working together in this new timeline after the events of X-2. Cyclops is alive as is Xavier. However, work remains to eliminate the Sentinels entirely. The plot also revolves around moving Wolverine back in time to complete the "time loop" to ensure he completes what is intended in the 1970's. However, in the new timeline, Kitty is injured, and they need Rogue to complete the loop.



In summary, this allows you to cut between both the past and present scenes, while maintaining the suspension of belief. The future is now unraveling before our eyes while we cut to what had taken place in the 1970's. So there will not be a separate "alternate" timeline. The timeline we see in the present will essentially be the "new" timeline where the changes have already happened, but more work remains. The original timeline will be a flashback, last minute reveal that bridges all the dead characters that have returned in the new timeline. That's what I predict...


This makes absolutely no sense and sounds entirely way too complicated for a movie.

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:18 PM   #61
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I agree.I think trying to resurrect Jean now Is a major problem considering how
closly the plot of The Wolverine Is based on his guilt for killing her.But,using time travel to resurrect Cyclops and allowing them to use psylocke In future that Is
all possable.

And an altered future Is more likely If X-Force moves forward.
You guys do understand that having to resort to time travel to go back and resurrect Cyclops means that he was in fact killed at the hands of Jean Grey and that, by stopping it, the events of The Last Stand, and most likely The Wolverine, are still no longer the same, right?

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Old 07-29-2013, 01:26 PM   #62
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The only contradiction is Xavier walking.
In X-Men, Xavier states that he and Erik meet when they're 17. Also, ageless Scottish geneticist Moira MacTaggert says, "Hi."

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Old 07-29-2013, 02:24 PM   #63
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In X-Men, Xavier states that he and Erik meet when they're 17. Also, ageless Scottish geneticist Moira MacTaggert says, "Hi."
Magneto's helmet and it's function.
Cerebro.
Mystique and why she doesn't acknowledge Charles in the original trilogy.
The fact that the first X-Men film(via Jean's speech at the Senate) makes it seem as if mutation is a new phenomenon on the world stage which is in contradiction to the climax of First Class.
Charles' injury.

If cherry pick the parts that don't fit, yeah, the series works. But, you can't really do that.

What does work is X-Men, X2, X-Men The Last Stand, and the Wolverine. No contradictions within those four films.

I am, also, starting to think that the whole purpose of First Class was not to be a straight up prequel or reboot. First Class' purpose was the coming event, Days of Future Past.

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Old 07-29-2013, 02:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

Many long running TV shows and Franchise make liberties on what was said about the
past.

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Old 07-29-2013, 02:42 PM   #65
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Plot rumors for DOFP involve Wolverine going into the past to convince young Charles to do something. What error did Charles make in the past that Wolverine needs to go back and make right? His creation of the Phoenix.

The appearance of a mutant who can vaporize an army platoon with but a thought would certainly have created an atmosphere of "by any means necessary" among eligible voters, even if that involved supremely powerful giant robots. And in one of the few good moments in Ratner's film, we found out that Jean's transformation was brought about by Xavier tampering with her mind and putting psychic blocks to prevent her from accessing her awesome power.

If Wolverine is successful in his mission, Xavier decides to work with young Jean to control her powers. Jean, Scott and Xavier (in his original body) survive. The Brotherhood is crushed by the greatly strengthened X-Men, leading to improved mutant-human relations. But another threat looms.......

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Old 07-29-2013, 02:51 PM   #66
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Many long running TV shows and Franchise make liberties on what was said about the
past.
They do but Xavier's "seventeen" comment is too specific. I would feel different if we saw it on a piece of paper for half a nanosecond. But, the amount of happiness it brings to Xavier when he tells Logan when they met us just too specific. I mean, look at how Stewart performances that moment. That was a big moment for him.

So, messing it up in First Class is a big no no in my book. Same as the helmet. Same as having Xavier and Erik split at the end of the film. That was a rush job to do that...just to make sure it somewhat lines up with X-Men if it flopped.

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Old 07-29-2013, 03:47 PM   #67
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Magneto's helmet and it's function.
Cerebro.
Mystique and why she doesn't acknowledge Charles in the original trilogy.
The fact that the first X-Men film(via Jean's speech at the Senate) makes it seem as if mutation is a new phenomenon on the world stage which is in contradiction to the climax of First Class.
Charles' injury.

If cherry pick the parts that don't fit, yeah, the series works. But, you can't really do that.
For the most part, yes. Though, I think Magneto's helmet and Charles' injury are the only things from that list that actually contradict what has already been established.

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I am, also, starting to think that the whole purpose of First Class was not to be a straight up prequel or reboot. First Class' purpose was the coming event, Days of Future Past.
I wouldn't go that far. Although they have been wanting to tackle the storyline for a while, I think Days of Future Past is a direct result of The Avengers. Prior to The Avengers, there was no discussion about a major movie crossover. If anything, there was discussion about moving forward with the First Class films as a trilogy and how Vaughn only wanted to introduce one new character to the sequel. Then, The Avengers happened. Fox took note. Vaughn departed, and Kinberg and Singer completely reworked the script.


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Old 07-29-2013, 03:55 PM   #68
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Default Re: Figuring out what could be changed

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Originally Posted by BMM View Post
In X-Men, Xavier states that he and Erik meet when they're 17.
Retcon.

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Also, ageless Scottish geneticist Moira MacTaggert says, "Hi."
Non-issue.

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Originally Posted by J.Howlett View Post
Magneto's helmet and it's function.
Not sure where there's a contradiction here.

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Cerebro.
Easily explainable without tossing out continuity.

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Mystique and why she doesn't acknowledge Charles in the original trilogy.
Non-issue.

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The fact that the first X-Men film(via Jean's speech at the Senate) makes it seem as if mutation is a new phenomenon on the world stage.
Matter of interpretation and therefore a non-issue.

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Charles' injury.
Only actual contradiction in the bunch and easily explainable without tossing out continuity.

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Old 07-29-2013, 04:24 PM   #69
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Retcon.

Non-issue.
All still contradictions.

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Old 07-29-2013, 05:07 PM   #70
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All still contradictions.
Retcons and things that aren't actually issues don't equal contradictions.

Even if they WERE contradictions, though, they really don't warrant 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:22 PM   #71
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Retcons and things that aren't actually issues don't equal contradictions.

Even if they WERE contradictions, though, they really don't warrant 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.
Well, there's not going to do that. To the producers, everything works. We're just a particular breed that likes to have everything make complete sense...and for 4 out of the 6 films, they do.

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Old 07-29-2013, 05:28 PM   #72
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Personally, having watched all of the X-Men films over the last week or so, as much as I'm an OCD whore when it comes to film continuity, I'm starting not to care when it comes to X-Men. Over the last few years, that wasn't so.

I think this universe is far richer and more interesting than the Marvel Cinematic Universe. And if Bryan Singer can nail this next picture, with the cast that's been assembled, I'm never going to turn my back on the X-Men Universe. It's just too rich and has a cast that's to die for, all lead by Hugh Jackman's commitment to playing that badass that is the Wolverine.

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Old 07-29-2013, 05:40 PM   #73
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To the producers, everything works.
Therein lies the key to figuring out what Singer is actually likely to do and what he's not likely to do. We do know that Singer wants to use this movie to make some alterations to the existing continuity, but, because there's a difference between what we as fans see as being issues and what the producers - including Singer himself - see as being issues, what he's likely to do is not what we would like him to do, and he's basically flat-out said that he's not going to destroy the existing continuity even as he's altering a few things about it.

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We're just a particular breed that likes to have everything make complete sense...and for 4 out of the 6 films, they do.
I'm personally of the opinion that things make complete sense in all 5 of the films that I've seen thus far (haven't seen The Wolverine yet), but I guess that's really neither here nor there.

Anyway, we've veered wildly off-topic, so I'm not going to argue about contradictions and such any more.

I really liked the speculation about how DoFP could play itself out that was posted by someone earlier in the thread, and think it's entirely possible that something like it could happen and that it would more than fit with what Singer's said about his plans for the film and the time-travel therein.

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"harm" is not the same thing as "stuff we don't like."
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"Despair is for people who know beyond any doubt what the future is going to be. Nobody's in that position. So despair is not only a kind of sin - theologically - it's also a simple mistake, because nobody actually knows." - Dr. Patrick Curry
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:36 PM   #74
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Retcons and things that aren't actually issues don't equal contradictions.

Even if they WERE contradictions, though, they really don't warrant 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater'.
I don't care if they warrant "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." My point is that they are contradictions, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

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Old 07-29-2013, 06:42 PM   #75
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To be honest I don't care much about minor continuity errors concerning most characters. The only major ones I notice deal with Professor X appearing in X-Men The Last Stand, X-Men First Class and Wolverine Origns. These errors are big, but they can't be fixed unfortunately. It's best to ignore them. I just want this new movie to set a clear path as to what we can expect for the future of this franchise.

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