Figuring out what could be changed

[protocida]

Everything I've read indicates Wolverine's consciousness is sent from 2023 straight to 1972, where is everyone getting he first goes to 2013?

[Double B]

Originally Posted by protocida

Everything I've read indicates Wolverine's consciousness is sent from 2023 straight to 1972, where is everyone getting he first goes to 2013?

Where have you read that? It's not about sending him anywhere "first". He's just already there. Our characters - Wolverine, Professor X, Magneto, Storm, Kitty, Rogue - are all in 2013/2014. A decade on from the original trilogy - that was confirmed. And they are responsible for sending Logan's consciousness back.

The 2023 stuff, with Wolverine, Warpath, Sunspot, Blink, is most likely some sort of prologue, showing how bad things get. And likely a chance to showcase that Wolverine death shot.

[EnDz0n3]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

Retcon.



Non-issue.



Not sure where there's a contradiction here.



Easily explainable without tossing out continuity.



Non-issue.



Matter of interpretation and therefore a non-issue.



Only actual contradiction in the bunch and easily explainable without tossing out continuity.

Denial.

Originally Posted by BMM

I don't care if they warrant "throwing the baby out with the bathwater." My point is that they are contradictions, whether you want to acknowledge them or not.

Ding Ding Ding.

I love this series and I love the cast and crew but I'm not delusional enough to think that it's not without its faults, chief among them are all the continuity errors. Its the nature of making these films one at a time, you're bound to have things NOT line up.The key is to just enjoy the movies and not be bothered with them. But to completely turn a blind eye to them and saying the errors DON'T/NEVER existed is just a whole different level of delusion.

[DigificWriter]

^ I'm not 'in denial'; I just refuse to acknowledge made-up contradictions as having any validity.

As for whether or not I'm 'delusional', I think you're the delusional one for making up contradictions that aren't actually contradictions.

[psylockolussus]

Where did you guys get this year 2023?

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by Double B

The 2023 stuff, with Wolverine, Warpath, Sunspot, Blink, is most likely some sort of prologue, showing how bad things get. And likely a chance to showcase that Wolverine death shot.

I thought that the things looked bad already in 2013 - that's after all why they send Wolverine back in time to correct the past. Why is there a need to jump another 10 years into the future at all?

[Double B]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I thought that the things looked bad already in 2013 - that's after all why they send Wolverine back in time to correct the past. Why is there a need to jump another 10 years into the future at all?

The film could start in the future. We see Wolverine as the last of our familiar X-Men alive. Everyone else is dead. It's just him and his new mutants. The world is a dystopian wreck. 10 minutes later - Wolverine dies. Cut to present day and the film properly begins and now we know how this all ends unless Wolverine is able to change things.

It's also the best pre-titles sequence ever, if they choose to do that.

[xDOFPx]

Originally Posted by Mrs Vimes

I thought that the things looked bad already in 2013 - that's after all why they send Wolverine back in time to correct the past. Why is there a need to jump another 10 years into the future at all?

I guess just to show how horrible it will get if they don't succeed. It ups the stakes. I personally don't need three time lines but the footage people saw indicates there are three. Wolverine in all of them. The new mutants don't seem to be involved with the present day team.

[The Guard]

Singer said he's maintaining some of the continuity, so this isn't happening.

None of the continuity has to be changed for this to happen.

There would just be a different timeline introduced in this film. Which Singer has also discussed.

[xDOFPx]

Originally Posted by The Guard

None of the continuity has to be changed for this to happen.

There would just be a different timeline introduced in this film. Which Singer has also discussed.

They aren't introducing a new timeline. They haven't suggested that in recent interviews.

[SuperT]

Originally Posted by xDOFPx

They aren't introducing a new timeline. They haven't suggested that in recent interviews.

Uh, Singer himself has already stated that the movie WOULD address characters destinies as well as the idea of alternate timelines.

[Farren]

Originally Posted by Mr.M

2023: Failed Future. Wolverine fails. Everyone dies. Bishop and/or Blink somehow relays the information from this future to the past at some unknown time frame prior to TLS.

OT timeframe (implied but not seen in the trilogy): The information from Bishop/Blink is intercepted by Xavier, who begins Danger Room sequence training to prepare mutants for the Sentinels.

1973: Wolverine tries to stop Trask along with the rest of the X-Men, but it leads to Stryker discovering the power of Cerebro and going through with X-2. Sentinels are postponed but not entirely put of the picture.

2013: Wolverine is sent back to 1973 from the original timeline by Kitty and another mutant (possibly Xavier's twin). Xavier is already dead in this timeline. This is the twist of the movie. The time travel had already taken place.

DoFP (present day): We are in the altered timeline. Wolverine was successful preventing the war from escalating into the events of the OT. Magneto/Xavier end up working together in this new timeline after the events of X-2. Cyclops is alive as is Xavier. However, work remains to eliminate the Sentinels entirely. The plot also revolves around moving Wolverine back in time to complete the "time loop" to ensure he completes what is intended in the 1970's. However, in the new timeline, Kitty is injured, and they need Rogue to complete the loop.

You know, this actually makes sense. I had to read it about 6 times, but it does. I think it's probably too complex for a movie audience though.

I like the notion of a message originating in 2023. Right now the speculation that 2023 is just going to be a prologue showing how bad things will get doesn't cut it for me in terms of relevance. Unless one of the characters knows what 2023 will look like there's no point to wasting screen time on it.

[FilmNerdJamie]

Still imagining a Back to the Future type ending. Wolverine wakes up back in "1985" to see the school run by Charles and Erick and the old gang like Storm and Hank and Jean and Scott alive.

[xDOFPx]

Originally Posted by SuperT

Uh, Singer himself has already stated that the movie WOULD address characters destinies as well as the idea of alternate timelines.

Alternate after it had been altered not before.

[The Guard]

If I had to guess, one of the timelines will be left not knowing how the future turned out, similar to the way DAYS OF FUTURE PAST ended.

And we'll then see an alternate timeline created for the future we had previously seen.

[ToilesHeroiques]

The big question is...

Why Bishop/Blink/the apocalyptic future warn an timeline who is not threatened by the sentinels ?

In the OT/The Wolverine timeline, Sentinels are not a direct threat. So why travel through time to prevent something that has not happened?

[danoyse]

Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie

Still imagining a Back to the Future type ending. Wolverine wakes up back in "1985" to see the school run by Charles and Erick and the old gang like Storm and Hank and Jean and Scott alive.

And a pickup truck in the garage. There needs to be a pickup truck in the garage.

[DigificWriter]

The 'present' of DoFP has been confirmed to take place 10 years after the events of The Last Stand, and everything about the 5 released films points to that movie's events taking place not in the year the film was released (2006), but in 2003, and reports about the footage that was shown at Comic-Con indicate that the X-Men are 'in the thick of it' when they send Wolverine back in time from the 'present'.

[rory]

Originally Posted by Double B

Where have you read that? It's not about sending him anywhere "first". He's just already there. Our characters - Wolverine, Professor X, Magneto, Storm, Kitty, Rogue - are all in 2013/2014. A decade on from the original trilogy - that was confirmed. And they are responsible for sending Logan's consciousness back.

The 2023 stuff, with Wolverine, Warpath, Sunspot, Blink, is most likely some sort of prologue, showing how bad things get. And likely a chance to showcase that Wolverine death shot.

So wait....where does the "present" and "future" separation thing come from though? Yes, I get Singer said DOFP would be set 10 years after TLS, but can't that just be the dystopian future? Why do we need that AND a "present"?

But....that said, I'm intrigued by the idea. I do like the idea of the prologue with the iconic Wolverine death shot. And it's a way to have Bishop still travel back in time: in the future, they send Bishop back to the "present" (maybe they can only go back so far) to simply warn the X-Men. Once he does, the "present" X-Men hatch the plan to send Logan's mind back to prevent Sentinels from ever existing in the first place (presumably because there is no way to stop it in the present). Thus, when Logan succeeds (spoiler alert: he probably will), he is sent back to an altered present with Scott and Jean alive, but Bishop is still there as he is physically out of time and doesn't go back (much like he was the only one who remembered the "real" timeline in AOA).

This is assuming, of course, that we are in fact dealing with three separate periods of time. With Wolverine being center stage in each.

[Mrs Vimes]

Originally Posted by rory

I do like the idea of the prologue with the iconic Wolverine death shot. And it's a way to have Bishop still travel back in time: in the future, they send Bishop back to the "present" (maybe they can only go back so far) to simply warn the X-Men. Once he does, the "present" X-Men hatch the plan to send Logan's mind back to prevent Sentinels from ever existing in the first place (presumably because there is no way to stop it in the present).

Why wouldn't Bishop skip the middle men and just travel back to 1973, instead of warning the 2013 X-Men that they have to warn the 70s X-Men? Sounds like a lot of unnecessary extra time travel to me. And from the descriptions of the footage, it looks like the war is already pretty bad in the time period with the old Professor X etc. Why do they need any warning at all?

And I think that if they really really wanted the iconic death shot, Wolverine could simply return to his mind near the end of the film and then they could have some kind of big Everybody Dies climatic sequence. Or something.

[Double B]

Originally Posted by rory

So wait....where does the "present" and "future" separation thing come from though? Yes, I get Singer said DOFP would be set 10 years after TLS, but can't that just be the dystopian future? Why do we need that AND a "present"?

But....that said, I'm intrigued by the idea. I do like the idea of the prologue with the iconic Wolverine death shot. And it's a way to have Bishop still travel back in time: in the future, they send Bishop back to the "present" (maybe they can only go back so far) to simply warn the X-Men. Once he does, the "present" X-Men hatch the plan to send Logan's mind back to prevent Sentinels from ever existing in the first place (presumably because there is no way to stop it in the present). Thus, when Logan succeeds (spoiler alert: he probably will), he is sent back to an altered present with Scott and Jean alive, but Bishop is still there as he is physically out of time and doesn't go back (much like he was the only one who remembered the "real" timeline in AOA).

This is assuming, of course, that we are in fact dealing with three separate periods of time. With Wolverine being center stage in each.

People who were at Comic-Con and saw the trailer, said that the footage of Wolverine with Blink, Warpath, etc, looked distinctly different from the footage of Wolverine with our X-Men - This gave them the impression that there were three distinct eras in the movie. Wolverine only had greying hair in the scenes with the former, not the latter, etc.

Which makes sense, really. With an older grey-haired Wolverine in 2023, and a more 'normal' looking Wolverine in the present scenes, which would be mere years after The Wolverine.

[DigificWriter]

The reason for 3 time periods is pretty simple in my mind: showing the audience the consequences of what could happen if things aren't changed AND provide an opportunity to shock the audience by giving the Sentinels a major 'onscreen kill'.

[Spider-Fan83]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

Not sure where there's a contradiction here

I think he's reffering to the fact that it would seem Xavier doesn't know about the Helmet or how Magneto is blocking his thoughts from him in the first movie

which this is also the biggest plot hole in the movie, as he still clearly read his mind the beginning of the movie (when he wasn't wear his helmet) and, neither Toad, Sabretooth, nor Mystique wore a helmet so what was stopping him from reading their minds? he even took over the minds of Toad and Sabretooth in one scene, so, why couldn't he figure out what there plan was

[Spider-Fan83]

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

The reason for 3 time periods is pretty simple in my mind: showing the audience the consequences of what could happen if things aren't changed AND provide an opportunity to shock the audience by giving the Sentinels a major 'onscreen kill'.

I get the showing "us" the audience, but how do "they" in the characters within the movie, in the the present timeline know that its the future there trying to prevent (without someone either coming back to warn them, or without someone seeing the future)

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Originally Posted by SuperT

He doesn't have to resurrect Jean through time travel or an altered timeline - she's the Phoenix, that's all they need to explain. She's died once and come back, how is this time any different.

Not to mention, I know her presence in The Wolverine was simply a hallucination but the ending with her in the white room could certainly be circled back and used as the White Hot Room if they really wanted too.

It's different because Phoenix isn't a cosmic entity in the movie universe. In the movie universe, she survived the Alkali Lake incident because of her powers. But, due to Jean's persona coming through in the end, she allowed herself to be killed in X-Men: The Last Stand.

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

They already have a workable continuity that they can move forward with post-DoFP.



The only contradiction is Xavier walking.



It didn't 'hedge its bet' continuity-wise. It's clearly meant to be a prequel to the franchise.



There's really not that much to fix.



Why? There aren't actually that many problems with the continuity of the franchise.

I agree. There are some contradictions with semantics, but nothing to the actual narrative.

Originally Posted by BMM

In X-Men, Xavier states that he and Erik meet when they're 17. Also, ageless Scottish geneticist Moira MacTaggert says, "Hi."

Meh. A minor detail was changed, but it doesn't change the details that Xavier and Magneto met when they were younger.

Moira isn't really a continuity error or contradiction. Moira clearly left the CIA at the end of First Class and had some interest and knowledge of genetics. She very easily could have pursued a different career after leaving the CIA.

The age issue isn't any more of a continuity error than Obi Won in the Star Wars franchise. The ages might not line up perfectly, but it's not so incorrect that it warrants being considered an "error"

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Magneto's helmet and it's function.

How is Magneto's helmet a contradiction when it does the exact same thing in X-Men: First Class and the original trilogy?

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Cerebro.

Not really a contradiction. Xavier stated: "Because he helped me build it".

The Cerebro in X-Men: First Class is not Xavier's Cerebro in the original trilogy. Xavier obviously still has to build Cerebro, he now just merely has a design to work off of. Xavier and Magneto teaming up at some point after X-Men: First Class is not unfeasible in the least bit.

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Mystique and why she doesn't acknowledge Charles in the original trilogy.

I don't believe there's ever even any interaction between the 2, so this is hardly a continuity error.

However, X-Men: First Class does quite explain why she knows the layout of the mansion to infiltrate and sabotage it in X-Men, and why she becomes immediately concerned about Xavier and the school when she learns of Stryker's proposed attack, and tries to talk him out of it.

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

The fact that the first X-Men film(via Jean's speech at the Senate) makes it seem as if mutation is a new phenomenon on the world stage which is in contradiction to the climax of First Class.

Not really a huge contradiction. In X-Men, mutation is becoming a public issue to be sure, but X-Men: First Class doesn't really make it a public issue. The Nazis that Magneto killed in the beginning obviously didn't think of the possibility that he was a mutant. 2 individual battalions were aware of the mutants on the island and the end, and the governments privately made a decision to deal with them, but the mutants never became public.

And even if they did, a segment of the population can be completely known about, but their struggle not a public issue.

Unless you want to tell me that homosexuality only existed within the last 20 years or so...

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

Charles' injury.

Probably the only real "error", but hardly a significant one at that, as Xavier's on again / off again walking hardly changes the narratives of his 2 individual scenes in X-Men: The Last Stand or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. These errors exist, but are hardly worth getting worked up about in the larger picture of the franchise.

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

If cherry pick the parts that don't fit, yeah, the series works. But, you can't really do that.

The series works WITH them. Star Wars has larger continuity errors than anything in the X-Men series.

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

What does work is X-Men, X2, X-Men The Last Stand, and the Wolverine. No contradictions within those four films.

Sure there are. Beast is human in X2, but blue in X-Men: The Last Stand. There are 2 different presidents in X2 and X-Men: The Last Stand. Xavier had never met Logan before in X-Men, but then knew all about his past in X2.

Originally Posted by J.Howlett

I am, also, starting to think that the whole purpose of First Class was not to be a straight up prequel or reboot. First Class' purpose was the coming event, Days of Future Past.

Well that's just blatantly false, as nothing in X-Men: First Class suggests a build up towards Days of Future Past, but if anything, suggest a build up to 1.) the X-Men original trilogy or 2.) a potential X-Men: First Class series / trilogy.

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

Therein lies the key to figuring out what Singer is actually likely to do and what he's not likely to do. We do know that Singer wants to use this movie to make some alterations to the existing continuity, but, because there's a difference between what we as fans see as being issues and what the producers - including Singer himself - see as being issues, what he's likely to do is not what we would like him to do, and he's basically flat-out said that he's not going to destroy the existing continuity even as he's altering a few things about it.

I just don't see Singer going out and making sweeping changes to the existing continuity when 1.) his last involvement, X-Men: First Class, went out of it's way to connect itself to the original trilogy, particularly X-Men and X2, and even made connections to X-Men: The Last Stand 2.) the movie that just came out a week ago made blatant connections to X-Men: The Last Stand and X-Men Origins: Wolverine.

The intent here is obviously to connect all the movies together, thus continuing to confirm them in continuity. It would make no sense for Days of Future Past to then come through a year later and wipe out what the series is blatantly going out of it's way to connect to.

There will be some changes, as is the nature of adding a new movie to an existing series. But no movies are getting wiped out of continuity, and no huge, sweeping changes are going to be made to the timeline.

When Singer talked about "fixing" things, and even dealing with characters "fates", I have a pretty big feeling that he's talking about Xavier, Magneto, and possibly Rogue to explain their involvements in the film when they had obvious fates at the end of X-Men: The Last Stand. I'll be surprised if Jean and Cyclops make returns.

Originally Posted by DigificWriter

I'm personally of the opinion that things make complete sense in all 5 of the films that I've seen thus far (haven't seen The Wolverine yet), but I guess that's really neither here nor there.

I agree with you. In my opinion, all 6 movies fit together quite nicely. Given the events of The Wolverine, I do wish that the deleted alternate scene from X-Men: The Last Stand of Logan going back to the bar in Canada from X-Men was part of the official version of that movie. It would have worked perfectly, I think.