The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice > Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-03-2016, 01:53 PM   #1
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

I hope the title is not too spoilery, I tried to keep it as simple as I could.

So I got back from my second viewing yesterday and it was an amazing experience for sure but there's something that I feel no one I have heard or read is talking about: The loss and revival of the 'feminine' in the characters in BVS and its balance with the 'masculine'.

I picked up on this after thinking about it after my first viewing.

So to put it simply I strongly feel there is an undercurrent in the story about the concepts of the 'masculine' and the 'feminine' and how they oppose and go hand in hand with each other.

By 'masculine' I mean the tendency for aggression, anger, fight instead of flight. By 'feminine' I mean the tendency for peace, calm, good. These do not relate to gender but to the Jungian archetypes influencing the psychology of the character. We all have a masculine and a feminine side to us, what matters, is in what amounts and to which side the scales are tipped at any given time.


1. BATMAN

From the Wikipedia page on "Anima and Animus":
Quote:
The anima and animus, in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, are the two primary anthropomorphic archetypes of the unconscious mind.

The anima and animus can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a man possesses or the masculine ones possessed by a woman, respectively. It is an archetype of the collective unconscious and not an aggregate of father or mother, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, or teachers, though these aspects of the personal unconscious can influence the person for good or ill.

Because a male's sensitivity is often lesser or repressed, the anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It is said to manifest itself by appearing in dreams.
The movie opens with a dream scene. Bruce is dreaming about the death of his parents and then about the bats and how they symbolically stood for his salvation as they took him "to the light" but it was all just a "beautiful lie" according to him.

In this dream scene we see something new, something that no other depiction of Thomas Wayne has done before. His first instinct was to throw a punch at the attacker instead of backing off and trying to calm the guy down or trying to peacefully handle the situation. The aggression of both the shooter and Thomas Wayne lead to the death of Martha (the masculine destroyed the feminine), and that aggression carried on to Bruce and guided him for the rest of his life (the masculine also destroyed Bruce's life).

I feel this was the first indication of the dominant masculine in Bruce's life.

Next we see the dream scene where a monstrous man-bat emerges from Martha's grave. This, to me, is indicative of the fact that Bruce never managed to cope with the loss of his mother, something that I have personally never seen being focused on in Batman's stories.

In Nolan's Batman movies Thomas Wayne was brought up but never Martha, the flashback scene in Batman Begins shows Thomas talking to Bruce and explaining what he does, but Martha never gets to say a word.

In BVS it is clearly pointed out that Bruce has always lacked the feminine in his life, the loss of a mother that he could never cope with so he never talks about it or focuses on it, but it exists as a looming 'ghost' in the back of his mind.

Something that shows this clearly is when he saves that little girl and then his first question to her is not "Where are your parents?" but "Where is your mother?" and then he says "I'm going to help you find her, we'll get you back to your mother."

Another thing is that when little Bruce shouts "Nooo" when his parents are killed, he turns to look at his mother on the ground instead of his father or at both of them.

The pearl that falls from her necklace into the sewer falls next to Bruce when he is in the cave in the dream. That is what he remembers most clearly.

It seems he may have gotten over the loss of his father, but he never got over the death of his mother. To elaborate, since he had Alfred (a father figure) to guide him during his formative years and all throughout his life thereon, he would definitely have had a lot more help in coping with the loss of his father than his mother.

When he refers to Thomas (to the masculine) he says "I'm older now than my father ever was, this may be the only thing I do that matters". That's when he mentions how his father told him that his ancestors were hunters (aggression, masculine).

He is able to talk about his his father calmly but seems to have recurring nightmares of his mother, never about HER directly, but about the loss that her death stands for. He never talks about his mother.

There is clearly a reconciliation with his masculine side but a loss of his feminine side which becomes all the more apparent when he becomes powerless and enraged and starts to cross lines that he never did before and when he starts losing himself in his singular goal of killing Superman without ever taking pause to think about what he is doing.

That is why he is so taken aback when someone mentions Martha, not only because she was his mother but because it is a loss, the affects of which even he doesn't acknowledge.

When Superman says "Save Martha" and "You're letting Martha die" or something to that effect, Batman is instantly snapped back to the loss that he could never cope with, the real nightmare that has haunted him all his life and that has pushed him further and further away from the feminine. He gave his life up to battle crime, it was his coping mechanism but in the end he realised it was all for nothing. Neither could he stop crime and make Gotham a better place nor could he ever change what had happened with his parents even though he tried to fix it with his actions for 20 years by taking up the mantle of the Bat, which was the "beautiful lie" he references at the beginning of the film.

All the losses he faced during his life - the death of his parents, the death of Jason Todd (Robin), seen by the Robin suit with the Joker's scribbled taunts, in the Batcave, the loss of his Wayne Financial employees in the battle between Superman and Zod - all lead him further and further away from the feminine. When Luthor manipulates Bruce and strikes the final blow with the note that says "You let your family die" it invokes the darkest parts of the masculine in Bruce since it reminds him of all the times that he was powerless to save his various families, and takes over him completely leading to his absolute and unwavering resolve in killing Superman.

(An interesting point to note, noticed by someone online: Bruce's dreams all start and end with the sound of the World Engine destroying Metropolis in the Zod battle, signifying that the losses faced by Bruce at that point subconsciously reminded him of his losses as a child since he was powerless to do anything in both instances. He therefore equated his parents' killer to Superman and the Kryptonians and started seeing himself as the potential saviour of humanity.)

By becoming blind with rage and almost killing Superman, he truly was "letting Martha die" since he had suppressed his losses and the feminine, the good, and became the very thing he fought against all his life - the overpowering and uncontrollable masculine. But hearing his mother's name reminded him of why he started fighting crime in the first place (to do good) and that brought him back from the edge.

He realises not only that Superman is actually just a man after all, but that this man also has a mother who is in danger and whom he is helpless to save. Bruce sees his younger self in Superman at that moment and that is when he comes to terms with the loss, lets the feminine come back to him and start guiding his actions which can be seen when he says, "I'll make you a promise, Martha won't die tonight."

The fact that Bruce is the one "saving Martha" is the most beautiful moment of the character arc for me since this shows him finally being able to do something that helps him come to terms with the loss of his own Martha and to cope with that lifelong suppressed pain.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


2. SUPERMAN

Superman was always a momma's boy. Even though in MOS (Man Of Steel) the feminine and the masculine in Clark's life were balanced by the existence of both his parents, he was closer to his mother than his father, even if he loved them both equally.

It becomes super apparent when Zod attacks her and Superman comes in at full speed and takes him away with so much anger. Once again that is something that has not explicitly been shown in the comics or cartoons, atleast to my knowledge. If Superman's parents are in danger, then it's both his parents, never just his mother. Pa Kent has been in mortal danger or has died but Martha never has.

In MOS the 'masculine' definitely played a bigger role and so Superman tended to go towards the single mother that he knew instead of the two kind and peaceful but authoritative father figures that he had to guide him on his path.

In BVS, even though Superman has Lois, that "special lady in his life is his mother." (oh how I love Lex and his lines!) She is the one constant from his childhood, the one thing he can always go back to and he does when he is confused and needs some direction in his life.SHE is his true 'Fortress of Solitude' and that may be why we haven't yet seen the traditional FOS in Snyder's movies yet.

Funnily, Martha tells Clark to "be none of it, you don't owe this world a thing." I feel that scene is indicative of the confusion between the masculine and the feminine that Superman is going through. He wants to be good and do good and take the peaceful path but he is also pretty disappointed and disgruntled, which we can clearly see when they show Clark in his apartment at two points. First, when he comes into the bathroom and tells Lois he doesn't care about what people think he did and the second when he is watching the news and they are saying bad things about Superman and debating about his place in the world. It is also shown when he goes to save Lois in the desert and tackles that terrorist in the most aggressive of ways showing his disregard for a peaceful use of his powers (masculine), even though he is trying to do good (feminine) and doesn't actually kill the guy.

This is also very apparent in his "No one stays good" scene when he is being torn apart by the choice in front of him; try to get the Batman to help him or to fight him for Lex. He is being torn apart by the masculine and the feminine. His mother's life is on the line so rational thinking is out of the window, even if it is just momentarily. Thankfully, since Superman is a very strong character and can stay on the right path in the most adverse of situations, he chooses not to fight and to convince the Batman to help him and only acts when his hand is forced and even then he fights only to stop the fight.

In the end his connection to the feminine wins out and he uses his last bits of strength to make sure Batman realises that he is about to let his mother die, which he cares about more in that moment, regardless of whether he ends up dying himself.

Lois was "his world" at the end but his first "world" was his mother. Lois was to Clark what Martha was to Pa Kent, a steadying rock and peaceful and loving retreat that helps him restore faith in himself and his actions. This makes Superman a very human character since this is what normally happens in most families with sons. The boy's world is his mother and when he grows up she is replaced by his significant other. The feminine in a man's life is what keeps him steady and good much more easily than without it.

A last point to note: In MOS we have two fathers (Jor-El and Jonathan) at the forefront, while in BVS we have the story revolve around two mothers (Martha and Martha). The focus in MOS was more on the masculine while Superman was stepping into the world and taking on super powered foes so he needed the aggression and the 'fight'. In BVS, both Batman and Superman were propelled by their masculine side to the point of either pure blinding rage (in Batman's case) or confusion and self-doubt (in Superman's case), so they needed that feminine to come into their lives and balance things out and make things right again.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


3. WONDER WOMAN


Diana Prince is the most interesting character here since she is the woman with more masculine than feminine tendencies when she fights but with feminine tendencies when it comes to truly resolving conflicts. She is the one truly balanced character in this movie. While both Batman and Superman are trying to find their balance and do by the end, here we have Wonder Woman who is already balanced from the very beginning.

Her laugh when she is fighting Doomsday screams masculine while her interactions with Bruce scream feminine. When she says "I didn't steal it, just borrowed it" she shows that she comes in peace and is one of the good guys even though her actions make it seem slightly to the contrary. Diana has always been a very balanced character when it comes to these two psychological traits and that is seen in this movie too.

It could even be argued that Wonder Woman actually follows a gender unary rather than a gender binary psychology since she comes from a world of exclusively female warriors where the gender roles and attributes that are typically seen as masculine or feminine merge into one continuous and balanced archetype. Thanks to SHH forum member "Mad Ones" for pointing this out in their post:
Quote:
Wonder Woman, though, works outside this framework. For Diana, and her sisters in Themyscira, violence and agency are feminine. They identify as women and the set of characteristics ascribed to them (aggression, physicality, action) are therefore feminine. There might not even be a gender binary in Themyscira, so the way they conceive of gender becomes even more foreign to the ways we are trained to think.
Zack Snyder always depicts the women in his movies in a powerful and balanced manner and shows them take agency for their actions and Wonder Woman was no exception to that. Ana, Queen Gorgo, Baby Doll, Silk Spectre, Lara-El, Martha Kent and Faora-Ul are all powerful women in their own right.

I don't have much more to say about her since she never had any interaction with Martha and since what I said above was the extent of her role in the movie.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


4. LEX LUTHOR


Thanks to "Miss Lois Lane" of the SHH forums:
Quote:
You've got me thinking - what about Lex's mother? Does he envy Clark for the fact that he has a loving mother? We hear nothing about Lex's mother, just hints at an abusive father. Bruce may not have had a mother figure after Martha died, but he had a loving father figure in Alfred. Lex had no mother figure (it seems) and a terrible father figure. Which I think further strengthens your point about the importance of balance between the (positive) masculine and feminine.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the end I'd like to conclude by saying that neither the masculine nor the feminine are better or worse than the other and that both are needed in equal measure. This is sort of a recurring theme in all of Zack Snyder's movies, the women are always depicted as powerful and effective alongside the men, while the men are depicted as sensitive and insightful alongside the women. It's the fluctuation and balance of the two that is the most important thing and which makes me appreciate Zack's movies and his characters a lot.

So what do you think?


EDIT: Updated the post as of 14/4/2016 and want to add that this has been posted to a DCEU films fan blog here > https://dceufilms.wordpress.com/2016...minine-in-bvs/

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!

Last edited by LamboMan; 04-14-2016 at 07:58 AM.
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 01:59 PM   #2
jeevanjacobjohn
Side-Kick
 
jeevanjacobjohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 1,018
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Great Analysis

__________________
The Anti-God is coming.
jeevanjacobjohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:04 PM   #3
jasontodd
Superhero Enthusiast
 
jasontodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
Thumbs up Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

What an amazing analysis. Tremendous read. I agree with every word. Fantastic.

__________________
Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice March 2016

That's how it starts...
Long Live Spectacular Spider - Man!!!!
jasontodd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:18 PM   #4
jasontodd
Superhero Enthusiast
 
jasontodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

The only thing I would say is that while his connection to his mother is not something that has really been focused on in Live action films, it is something that is shown to be extremely emotionally and psychologically vital to the Batman character in comics. In "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" there is an exchange between Batman and his Mother as Batman is having a near death experience that showed the huge space Martha Wayne occupies in Bruce's psyche and his heart. I loved that Batman V Superman chose to focus on this aspect of the tragedy of Bruce's parents death.

__________________
Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice March 2016

That's how it starts...
Long Live Spectacular Spider - Man!!!!
jasontodd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:36 PM   #5
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasontodd View Post
The only thing I would say is that while his connection to his mother is not something that has really been focused on in Live action films, it is something that is shown to be extremely emotionally and psychologically vital to the Batman character in comics. In "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" there is an exchange between Batman and his Mother as Batman is having a near death experience that showed the huge space Martha Wayne occupies in Bruce's psyche and his heart. I loved that Batman V Superman chose to focus on this aspect of the tragedy of Bruce's parents death.
Wow, that is very interesting to know! Thanks for sharing that, I haven't read that comic so I didn't know about that.


@ Everyone, thanks a lot for reading and for the appreciation!


Btw, I found a nice post by someone on this website, that relates to what we're talking about: http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...snyder-martha/


__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:38 PM   #6
Miss Lois Lane
Planet Please!
 
Miss Lois Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 414
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

The only thing I don't agree with is your opinion of Zack Snyder's portrayal of women. Having said that, one overwhelmingly positive thing I have to say about this film is that Diana was portrayed incredibly well. I'm just glad he's not directing her solo film.

This is a very well thought out and well written post. Your comments about Bruce's lack of female influence are particularly insightful.

Miss Lois Lane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:43 PM   #7
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

While reading my post again, I just realised that Martha is Superman's true 'Fortress of Solitude' in MOS and BVS.

This is why we may not have seen the original FOS yet in Snyder's films! Haha, I'm adding that to the OP.

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:46 PM   #8
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Lois Lane View Post
The only thing I don't agree with is your opinion of Zack Snyder's portrayal of women. Having said that, one overwhelmingly positive thing I have to say about this film is that Diana was portrayed incredibly well. I'm just glad he's not directing her solo film.

This is a very well thought out and well written post. Your comments about Bruce's lack of female influence are particularly insightful.
I don't want to go off topic but would you like to expand why you don't agree with Zacks' portrayal of women?

Thanks a lot for the appreciation!

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 02:49 PM   #9
OutOfBoose
Evil Russian
 
OutOfBoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 7,118
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Really interesting take.
1) We don't know if it's a man bat or a woman bat. On the surface, the dream is just a remind, that Bruce is haunted by his mother's death. Maybe it's a parallel to Ma Kent, the witch who "gave birth" to the devil - Superman. Martha Wayne is a giant bat, who "gave birth" to Batman.
2) You pointed out a really awesome thing. Thomas's actions in the Wayne murder scene probably led to the death of both of Bruce's parents. Masculinity and aggression. And he follows this masculinity and aggression in his pursuit of Superman. And it almost leads him to another huge mistake. Till he gets a chance at fixing it, when Martha is brought again in his mind. It's super-subconscious material, but please tell me it's an accident and it wasn't intended? Just brilliant.

I'll write more a bit later.

__________________
DC Extended Murderverse:
Man of Murder
-
7/10 Punisherman v Depressionman: Dawn of Burials ULTIMATE EDITION - 7/10 Mawkish Squad - ?/10 Savage League - ?/10
OutOfBoose is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:01 PM   #10
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfBoose View Post
Really interesting take.
1) We don't know if it's a man bat or a woman bat. On the surface, the dream is just a remind, that Bruce is haunted by his mother's death. Maybe it's a parallel to Ma Kent, the witch who "gave birth" to the devil - Superman. Martha Wayne is a giant bat, who "gave birth" to Batman.
2) You pointed out a really awesome thing. Thomas's actions in the Wayne murder scene probably led to the death of both of Bruce's parents. Masculinity and aggression. And he follows this masculinity and aggression in his pursuit of Superman. And it almost leads him to another huge mistake. Till he gets a chance at fixing it, when Martha is brought again in his mind. It's super-subconscious material, but please tell me it's an accident and it wasn't intended? Just brilliant.

I'll write more a bit later.
Haha thanks!

I was talking about the 'Man-Bat' villain character in the Batman universe which is what that monster looked like to me, but you're right, we don't know if it's a male or female in that scene. Good point!

About your second point, I'm glad you caught that and put it so clearly! That's what I meant to say but I didn't point it out clearly enough myself and the way you put it made me realise it more effectively and clearly myself. You got the right gist of it all.

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!

Last edited by LamboMan; 04-03-2016 at 03:06 PM.
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:02 PM   #11
Miss Lois Lane
Planet Please!
 
Miss Lois Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 414
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LamboMan View Post
I don't want to go off topic but would you like to expand why you don't agree with Zacks' portrayal of women?

Thanks a lot for the appreciation!
Off the top of my head - I felt that Laurie in 'Watchmen' was underdeveloped. Unlike the graphic novel where we could see what her motivations were, she seemed to only be there to react to Jon/Dan/Sally and their expectations of her.

MoS - HISHE makes a joke of this, but why no memory stick for Lara Lor-Van? I know that it's canon that Jor-El sends his memories/hologram off with Kal but in this day and age I expected Lara to have more to do than just launch the ship. And whilst Zod is a very nuanced character with motivation, Faora-Ul (although I enjoyed her character) is very much the stereotypical 'female badass villain'.

This is subjective though, and takes nothing away from my appreciation of your post

Miss Lois Lane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:05 PM   #12
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Lois Lane View Post
Off the top of my head - I felt that Laurie in 'Watchmen' was underdeveloped. Unlike the graphic novel where we could see what her motivations were, she seemed to only be there to react to Jon/Dan/Sally and their expectations of her.

MoS - HISHE makes a joke of this, but why no memory stick for Lara Lor-Van? I know that it's canon that Jor-El sends his memories/hologram off with Kal but in this day and age I expected Lara to have more to do than just launch the ship. And whilst Zod is a very nuanced character with motivation, Faora-Ul (although I enjoyed her character) is very much the stereotypical 'female badass villain'.

This is subjective though, and takes nothing away from my appreciation of your post
Good points! And thanks again.

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:13 PM   #13
Parquagh
Side-Kick
 
Parquagh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 627
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Everyone should read this. Great analysis.


Parquagh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:15 PM   #14
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parquagh View Post
Everyone should read this. Great analysis.

Thank you kind sir/ma'am!


__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:23 PM   #15
Corko
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: in a glass cage of emotion
Posts: 236
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Great analysis. I loved the concentration on Martha this time and the way Thomas Wayne closed his fist to fight.

Corko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:27 PM   #16
ObiWanCon
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: England
Posts: 45
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

LamboMan your post is one of the best I've ever read, just brilliant.

ObiWanCon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:32 PM   #17
Corko
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: in a glass cage of emotion
Posts: 236
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Lois Lane View Post
Off the top of my head - I felt that Laurie in 'Watchmen' was underdeveloped. Unlike the graphic novel where we could see what her motivations were, she seemed to only be there to react to Jon/Dan/Sally and their expectations of her.

MoS - HISHE makes a joke of this, but why no memory stick for Lara Lor-Van? I know that it's canon that Jor-El sends his memories/hologram off with Kal but in this day and age I expected Lara to have more to do than just launch the ship. And whilst Zod is a very nuanced character with motivation, Faora-Ul (although I enjoyed her character) is very much the stereotypical 'female badass villain'.

This is subjective though, and takes nothing away from my appreciation of your post
I like the way the females were treated in his movies but I get what you're saying. Love that Man of Steel HISHE haha.

Corko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:33 PM   #18
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OutOfBoose View Post
Really interesting take.
1) We don't know if it's a man bat or a woman bat. On the surface, the dream is just a remind, that Bruce is haunted by his mother's death. Maybe it's a parallel to Ma Kent, the witch who "gave birth" to the devil - Superman. Martha Wayne is a giant bat, who "gave birth" to Batman.
2) You pointed out a really awesome thing. Thomas's actions in the Wayne murder scene probably led to the death of both of Bruce's parents. Masculinity and aggression. And he follows this masculinity and aggression in his pursuit of Superman. And it almost leads him to another huge mistake. Till he gets a chance at fixing it, when Martha is brought again in his mind. It's super-subconscious material, but please tell me it's an accident and it wasn't intended? Just brilliant.

I'll write more a bit later.
I thought over it and added two points to the Batman part to make it clearer. Thanks for your point of view, it wouldn't have been so clear to me without it!

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:36 PM   #19
Corko
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: in a glass cage of emotion
Posts: 236
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

I feel like these kinda analysis of the movie are missing from this board. Most threads of it are just discussing the flaws or box office which I think is a shame. One of my favourite posts on this movie.

Corko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:38 PM   #20
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corko View Post
Great analysis. I loved the concentration on Martha this time and the way Thomas Wayne closed his fist to fight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ObiWanCon View Post
LamboMan your post is one of the best I've ever read, just brilliant.
Thanks so much for your appreciation! I'm glad you enjoyed reading my post!

I have just updated it with two more lines in the Batman part to clarify a point brought up by OutOfboose so you can read that part again.

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:44 PM   #21
Mad Ones
Bebe le Strange
 
Mad Ones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,404
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Masculinity and femininity aren't universals inherent in each of us though. They are differently constructed depending where and when you are, and are the words we use to identify sets of characteristics assigned to the gender binary.

This movie, within a larger tradition of Western thought, assigns passivity to women, making it feminine, and aggression to men, making it masculine, through the Wayne murders that frame the entire movie. This is a narrow and constructed (and insidious and pervasive) understanding of gender, not unique to the movie. Bruce is having a crises of masculinity since he feels weak and impotent (in other words feminine). Saving Clark's Martha is Bruce's way of reclaiming his masculine agency in a way his father failed to do. Women are basically props for these men to ensure their masculinity.

Wonder Woman, though, works outside this framework. For Diana, and her sisters in Themyscira, violence and agency are feminine. They identify as women and the set of characteristics ascribed to them (aggression, physicality, action) are therefore feminine. There might not even be a gender binary in Themyscira, so the way they conceive of gender becomes even more foreign to the ways we are trained to think.

I don't see a balance of femininity and masculinity in Superman and Batman at all. The fragility of their hyper-masculinity sets their conflicts in motion. Balancing femininity and masculinity in a body looks very different than biceps fighting other biceps.

Mad Ones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:46 PM   #22
jasontodd
Superhero Enthusiast
 
jasontodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posts: 734
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LamboMan View Post
Wow, that is very interesting to know! Thanks for sharing that, I haven't read that comic so I didn't know about that.


@ Everyone, thanks a lot for reading and for the appreciation!


Btw, I found a nice post by someone on this website, that relates to what we're talking about: http://collider.com/batman-v-superma...snyder-martha/

I can't recommend Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader enough. It's a phenomenal heartfelt tribute to the character of Batman. One of my favorites.

__________________
Batman V Superman Dawn of Justice March 2016

That's how it starts...
Long Live Spectacular Spider - Man!!!!
jasontodd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:54 PM   #23
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ones View Post
Masculinity and femininity aren't universals inherent in each of us though. They are differently constructed depending where and when you are, and are the words we use to identify sets of characteristics assigned to the gender binary.

This movie, within a larger tradition of Western thought, assigns passivity to women, making it feminine, and aggression to men, making it masculine, through the Wayne murders that frame the entire movie. This is a narrow and constructed (and insidious and pervasive) understanding of gender, not unique to the movie. Bruce is having a crises of masculinity since he feels weak and impotent (in other words feminine). Saving Clark's Martha is Bruce's way of reclaiming his masculine agency in a way his father failed to do. Women are basically props for these men to ensure their masculinity.

Wonder Woman, though, works outside this framework. For Diana, and her sisters in Themyscira, violence and agency are feminine. They identify as women and the set of characteristics ascribed to them (aggression, physicality, action) are therefore feminine. There might not even be a gender binary in Themyscira, so the way they conceive of gender becomes even more foreign to the ways we are trained to think.

I don't see a balance of femininity and masculinity in Superman and Batman at all. The fragility of their hyper-masculinity sets their conflicts in motion. Balancing femininity and masculinity in a body looks very different than biceps fighting other biceps.
Really a very interesting viewpoint! But I don't understand how Superman wanting to do good can be hyper-masculine? Note that I wasn't talking about their physicality or their fight, but about the influences of those two things in their respective lives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasontodd View Post
I can't recommend Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader enough. It's a phenomenal heartfelt tribute to the character of Batman. One of my favorites.
Thanks! I will definitely try to give it a read!

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 03:57 PM   #24
Miss Lois Lane
Planet Please!
 
Miss Lois Lane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 414
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LamboMan View Post
In BVS, even though Supes has Lois, that "special lady in his life is his mother." (oh how I love Lex and his lines!)
You've got me thinking - what about Lex's mother? Does he envy Clark for the fact that he has a loving mother? We hear nothing about Lex's mother, just hints at an abusive father. Bruce may not have had a mother figure after Martha died, but he had a loving father figure in Alfred. Lex had no mother figure (it seems) and a terrible father figure. Which I think further strengthens your point about the importance of balance between the (positive) masculine and feminine.

Miss Lois Lane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-03-2016, 04:01 PM   #25
LamboMan
Side-Kick
 
LamboMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 881
Default Re: About Martha. The 'masculine' vs the 'feminine' in BVS [SPOILERS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Lois Lane View Post
You've got me thinking - what about Lex's mother? Does he envy Clark for the fact that he has a loving mother? We hear nothing about Lex's mother, just hints at an abusive father. Bruce may not have had a mother figure after Martha died, but he had a loving father figure in Alfred. Lex had no mother figure (it seems) and a terrible father figure. Which I think further strengthens your point about the importance of balance between the (positive) masculine and feminine.
Wow, that's a great point and I will admit the thought of Lex's mother hadn't crossed my mind! Funnily, the thought of Alfred helping Bruce cope with the loss of his father hadn't crossed my mind either haha. I would like to add the Alfred point to the OP, if you don't mind.

__________________
“You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
- Richard Buckminster Fuller
My manips & other art here

Thoughts and observations on MOS & MORE!
LamboMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.