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Old 11-15-2013, 05:53 PM   #301
marvelrobbins
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Haters will be out for me but here goes

Spider-Man-The MJ obsession Is too much.I never liked the split personality
Spider-Man 2-Ok best film In rami trilogy still didn't like MJ stuff and why couldn't Dr octopus choose to be villain instead of chip split personality
Iron Man-I like film but some act like it's one of greatest films ever
Thor-very uneven film.I like asgard scenes but scenes on earth make me want to roll my eyes
The Dark Knight rises-very disappointing third act of trilogy
Iron Man 3-I have to laugh at TV ads calling it best of Iron Man films.It's RT
scare Is way too high.I place It with X-Men the Last Stand and Spider-man 3.
Man of steel-Sorry but the reimaging of superman falls Into Dark Knight/Michael Bay style version of Superman

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Best Comic Book films-Superman X2 X-Men Days of Future Past The Amazing Spider-Man Batman Returns X-Men Batman Captain America The Winter Soldier The Wolverine The Dark Knight
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Old 11-15-2013, 06:46 PM   #302
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Well for me...

The Dark Knight - It's a good film, and one of the best Batman films ever made. But it gets way too much praise, and has pretensions of greatness which really annoys me. People like to say that it elevates the comic book movie to a whole new level to which I reply...

The Avengers - I like this film, but I do not love it. For a superhero team movie it's remarkable, but I thought X-men First Class was a better film. While I do commend Marvel's commitment to make this film happen, I'm not about to get on knees and thank them like some many others.

X2: X-Men United - This film gets way too much praise. It's good, but it's not the best X-Men movie (that title belongs to the aforementioned First Class). I've always found Bryan Singer to be a boring director, unlike Matthew Vaughn.

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Old 11-15-2013, 06:59 PM   #303
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Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

PART ONE (what can I say, I hit the post limit)

When I am wrong, I admit it. However, you still have not succeeded in refuting the core of my reasoning, and your reliance on explanations in the film doesn't assist you, as those explanations aren't particularly sound.

If explanations within the film do not stack up, or "facts" don't make sense within the context of Superman, in a Superman film, then it is perfectly valid to dispute them

IN terms of arguing based on assumptions, this is an argument about a completely fictional character, so some assumptions are probably permissible.
And, while I don't completely agree with it, somebody much cleverer than I said that if we only argue on authority, we are only using memory, not imagination.

Assumptions that I make are based within the context and concept of Superman, his powers, his personality, and his intellect. Furthermore, when assumptions are reasonable, actually make sense and have a logical flow to them, they become valid.

More on assumptions later, but for now, we must accept that reasonable assumptions about Superman are valid -otherwise we have nothing to talk about.


(interestingly, I had a discussion with a Thor Fan, who assumed Thor would have recovered from the beating Kurse was giving him in TDW, eventually if the scene were longer, thus negating Loki's need to step in. This assumption doesn't seem to have any logic to it. It would be like me saying that Superman would have recovered from the Kryptonite and smashed up Luthor and his goons, if the scene were longer. This would be an incorrect assumption, as on the basis of how kryptonite works, he would not have recovered at all - interesting that by throwing him off the island, Luthor actually made it possible for Superman to be rescued. Whereas if he'd slit his throat and left him to die there, on the island, that's the end of the film.)

Sorry, that's a diversion, now back to the main argument.


The central hypothesis of my argument is that Superman Returns portrays Superman as a moron, evidenced by his landing on the Kryptonite continent, without checking it out first, or at least suspecting some sort of trap.

This is inconsistent with Superman in general, although I will accept that he blunders into traps reasonably often. However, usually the explanation for that blunder is much better than what we're offered in Superman Returns.

It is because the so-called explanations are pretty piss poor, that we are left only with the conclusion that Superman is a colossal dumbass -which is inconsistent with the character (remember that whole son of the greatest scientist of an advanced civilization thing), he ain't perfect, but he's no dumbass.


This next statement is incidental, but worth mentioning

Quote:

No, he didn't check the alarm because, as I told and was properly explained in the movie, Superman was busy. Luthor made sure he was. And then again, nobody really made a big fuss because they had stolen a piece of rock.

And well, true, Luthor again visited the FOS, but this time, unlike in SII, he stole alien technology and built his own continent. I don't recall that happening in SII.


Fair enough, he was busy bouncing bullets off his eyeballs. No, in SM II he accessed the holographic system, yes it's a variation, similar to stealing a piece of rock from a museum, in Metropolis is a variation on stealing a piece of rock from a museum in Addis Abbaba......

Of course, this is not particularly great writing, as it's essentially re-hashing stuff that Luthor did in SM II and SMTM.

From a simply creative point of view, it's unoriginal, and part of greatest overall failing of the film, trying to re-make a Donner(or the other guy if you want to get technical)/Reeve film, by throwing a bunch of elements of those films together, and hoping it will work -rather than come up with something new.
Love or hate MOS, at least it's not a second-rate re-hash of SM TM. Sure there are elements of Superman in there, because without them it wouldn't be a Superman movie, but at least there's an attempt to present them in a somewhat original way.

I apologize, that's getting off point.


Quote:
"To ascertain how Luthor managed to create a new landmass, out of nothing"??? Didn't you said that Superman knows exactly how Luthor built that landmass? Then why would he try to ascertain that, if he knows exactly how it was done?

Even more, Superman built his own landmassin STM with crystals when he built the Fortress of Solituide, remember? Why would he try to find out how it was done then?



True ! I have contradicted myself in terms of Superman knowing how the landmass was built. Point conceded.

However, the Fortress of Solitude hardly qualifies as a landmass, compared to Luthor's enormous island, which was a significant threat to the rest of the world as it expanded. The fortress of Solitude, and here I'm making an assumption, did not significantly raise sea levels - so landmass is probably a bit of a stretch, but I take your point.

This still does not address the fact that Superman landed on the island oblivious to the presence of Kryptonite.



Quote:
Eyes open can't see under the surface of earth. X-ray vision can. And Superman would probably have used it, had he had one reason to.


There are two problems with this.

1) You misunderstand the analogy. I'm assuming you walk around with your eyes open, (there I go making assumptions again, you could be vision-impaired but since the vast majority of people aren't it's reasonable to assume that you can see, and thus don't walk around with your eyes closed. See what I mean about reasonable assumptions, pun intended)because your sight is a natural part of your sensory apparatus.

Superman's x-ray vision is part of his natural sensory apparatus. While it is possible that Superman wouldn't bother using his enhanced senses, it seems about as likely as you walking around with your eyes closed.


Yes, this is an assumption but based on comic book, and film depictions of Superman using his enhanced senses with reasonable regularity, I submit that it is at least a reasonable one.

Also, the kryptonite was visible on the ground, not under it, unless you're suggesting that at the precise moment Superman falls down and cuts his hand, and then notices a vein of green ore in the ground, was the precise moment the Kryptonite emerged ?

If not, then with telescopic vision, again while looking for Luthor's location, which is again, something Superman pretty much always does when approaching from a distance - it's natural, it's what you or I do when we squint to see a bit further. Anyway a look with telescopic vision would pretty quickly reveal those veins of green ore.

If you are suggesting that Superman would either not see these, or that in seeing them, he might not suspect that Kryptonite was present (again facing the only human to have used Kryptonite against him, I'm not counting Superman III of course, although that film suggests that if a computer nerd could help synthesize Kryptonite, then Luthor, arguably the smartest human alive certainly could)

Anyway, suggesting such oversight on Superman's part would indicate supreme arrogance or stupidity. Since Superman is not arrogant, by default it must be stupidity.


2) Next, leaving super-senses aside, your assertion that Superman had no reason to even suspect Kryptonite still defies logic.

In fact, if you think about it, Kryptonite would be the number one thing to suspect. If you know that pretty much nothing else can harm you, yet your enemy is out in the open, waiting for you, what is the one thing that enemy might possibly might have that can take you down, and has used against you in the past.

Superman's default safety rule is (or at least should be) "Watch out for Kryptonite" (and in the comics magic !). Policemen check their suspects for weapons, and go into dangerous situations prepared to deal with weapons.
All Superman has to prepare for (in the films anyway) is Kryptonite.


If Superman doesn't think "Hmmmm...Luthor's at it again. Wonder why he's waiting for me out in the open ? " and doesn't get suspicious of something, then he's an idiot.


Now Superman has blundered into his fair share of traps -which works, when it's written well. Here it does not.

E.g. In The Dark Knight Returns, Batman essentially sets up a series of traps and gadgets that distract Superman until he can blindside him with some kryptonite. Back then Frank Miller was at the peak of his powers, and this explanation works perfectly, I'm sure there are probably some holes in it, but it works a hell of a lot better than the one in Superman returns.
More on DKR later.


PART TWO COMING SHORTLY

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Old 11-15-2013, 07:00 PM   #304
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AS PROMISED PART TWO

Now back to the availability of Kryptonite.

Quote:

Yes, only one chunk of kryptonite has hit the earth, that was in STM. That chuck was gone, so Superman has no reason whatsoever to think Luthor is in possession of it again. It's not that Superman doesn't know Luthor knows his weakness, it's the fact that the only one chunk of kryptonite made its way through the sewer (and later rescued and taken to the museum).

For all Superman knows, Luthor cannot get kryptonite every time he wants. There's only so much of it that you can find on earth. Which is why he didn't use it in SII.
First, the chunk is not gone, it fell down a drain. Call the plumber, drain the pool. Meteors hit the earth all the time, sooner or later some more Kryptonite is bound to arrive, although the mathematical chances of that are incalculably small, probably about as small as an infant from a distant galaxy arriving on Earth and being able to fly....so if you can accept that, why can't you accept the possibility of more kryptonite.

Anyway, back to your analysis. You're still suggesting that Superman simply forgot about the one substance that nearly killed because, hey, out of sight out of mind right ? Please.

Or is he dumb enough to believe that because Luthor got ahold of it once, he can't get it again.

In fact, the fact that Luthor has used Kryptonite once suggests precisely the opposite ?

Going back to my "past being an indicator of the future" point, the fact that Luthor has used Kryptonite against him in the past strongly indicates that he will attempt to do so in the future. He has every reason to suspect Luthor would have ahold of some.

( I submit that in SM II he was too busy to drain the pool, as he was obsessed with finding Superman's home, and then spent a significant amount of time licking Zod's boots)

Furthermore Kryptonite doesn't seem that hard to get ahold of in the films, considering it is easily stolen from museums ( A clever explanation of how Metallo and then Luthor got Kryptonite would have been that which John Byrne used in Man of Steel, way back in the 80's)


The Superman wiki refers to the kryptonite in the museum as being another piece from the Addis Abbaba meteorite. If this is correct, then your suggestion that that chunk Luthor used in SMTM is the only kryptonite on earth, is incorrect. One meteorite, several pieces.


What would make sense would be if Luthor had never used Kryptonite against Superman before, then he would have no reason to suspect it. But just saying he forgot about it because it went down the drain.....please.

Furthermore, Kryptonite was synthesized, badly, by a computer nerd in Superman III. So at least the possibility exists that it could be synethesized, who could possibly be the one human smart enough to do something like that, hmmmm......


Continuing on,

Quote:
If kryptonite is as common as bullets, that would be a good example.
The analogy is not about availability of a weapon, but the suggestion that a villain won't have a weapon that will harm the hero, or at least won't find another weapon. Also, it attacks the point you seem to be making that because Luthor had used Kryptonite against superman once, (and then lost it), that it would be inconceivable for him to do so again.

Since Batman isn't bulletproof, bullets are analogous, as it is an analogy based on the efficacy of a villain's methods.

That Superman would not expect a villain, who has nearly killed him twice, to at least have a weapon that could do so again, does not seem logical.
Maybe he doesn't suspect Kryptonite, (although I don't believe that for a second) but to not have a careful look before rushing in to engage Luthor,
is a level of stupidity that seems more Hulk than Superman (actually it makes Superman dumber than the Hulk, as the Hulk has no super-senses to have a careful look with).


Quote:
Luthor is an arrogant dude. Of course he would say that. That doesn't change the fact that Superman had zero reasons to believe he had kryptonite, let alone that the whole island's core was made of it.




As above, Superman has every reason to suspect a trap, and the possibility of Kryptonite, so Luthor's comment, is completely correct.




Quote:
Oh, it does exist. It's in the museum, long forgotten.

Superman doesn't probably even know that the chunk of kryptonite made its way from the sewer to the museum.
Neither of these are reasons for Superman not to be suspicious, or at least take a second to have a careful look around. You're suggestion that Superman has forgotten about the one substance that nearly killed him,
does not seem defensible. Generally, people remember near-death experiences, I certainly have, which makes them such valuable learning experiences (although highly traumatic).


Now on to the inconsistencies with the use of kryptonite itself.

Quote:

As shown in the movie, the whole island is NOT kryptonite. Only its core. It's also shown that this kryptonite core finds its way to the surface slowly. That's why the island is not green, that's why chunks oif kryptonite appear only when Superman is lifting the island out of earth and that iswhy Superman didn't feel its effects immediately.

Actually, kryptonite was visible on the surface, just after Superman looks at the cut on his fingers, as Lex and co are giving him a beating.

In SMTM Superman is overcome by kryptonite, when in close proximity, almost immediately. You're suggesting that when he landed the kryptonite ore wasn't close enough to affect him, but conveniently gets close enough, about a minute or so afterwards.

This is almost as convenient as all the soldiers of an alien invasion force dropping dead when their mothership is blown up.

Yes, it is an explanation, but not a good one - this is what I mean about it being valid to question explanations that don't stack up.

Quote:
It's also shown that Superman flew towards the sun to recover 100% and that's what protected him from the effects, even if for a brief period of time, when he was lifting the island.

Your opinion is not a problem. Your reasoning is, since you leave lots of facts that are shown and/or explained in the movie and move on on the basis of assumptions
Agreed, Superman recharges with solar energy and recovers from the shanking -well as much as he can.

So, you're saying that exposure to sunlight, while flying the island through space protected him from the kryptonite rocks.

I might accept that, except of course that the island is between him and the sun. He's underneath it. Now of course there will be a lot of background solar radiation, if he's outside the earth's magnetic field. But still, the rocks are pretty close to him, and they're huge, much larger than the fragment that nearly killed him in SMTM.

Of course, then if this is true, why doesn't the solar energy, which allowed him to recover before.... (from an injury that put kryptonite INSIDE his body, and when it comes to toxins and radiation, inside is much, much, much worse than outside. Touch some trace polonium, you'll be okay. Eat some, even a trace, you're dead in 24 or so hours)..... doesn't allow him to recover now, although he now has direct exposure to (after chucking the island away), sunlight and solar radiation.

What explanation does the film offer ? Was it that the strain of lifting the island, (which is pretty impressive, even for Superman, although he did once hold up most of the California coast) plus the kryptonite poisoning was too much for him ? If it's not explicitly stated, then we'll just have to assume.

That comment about assume is an ass out of u and me, is only valid when we make incorrect assumptions. How do you think juries make decisions ? They take the fact they've got, but what fills in the blanks ? assumptions.


Quote:

Superman has fallen in many traps in his life to come and say this. Specially when he didn't know that kryptonite still existed.
Also,

To suggest that Superman does not know kryptonite still exists, because it fell down a drain, pretty much proves my point that the film treats him like a moron. Out of sight out of mind ? I think you just undermined your own argument there.


I have already accepted that Superman has fallen into many traps, usually fiendishly cunning ones, by cerebral villains
This trap basically reads like this...Superman landed on an Island which contained large quantities of the one substance that can kill him, because he was too stupid to suspect that the one person who's used that substance against him, might have some more, or that him standing out in the open waiting for Superman was a trap, or that Supes didn't use his most common super-senses for half a second, just in case some other nasty surprise was waiting.....all of which lead us to the inexorable conclusion that Superman is an idiot.

- this is a bit like challenging an international terrorist to a fight, then advertising your address, and not turning on the army of remote controlled super-powerful armour you have in the basement, or taking time to finish the weapons on your current suit.
OR
like being badly beaten by a villain, who is clearly physically in better condition (and is less rusty) than you are, because you attacked him in his lair, and then when the chips were down, threw a firecracker at him (instead of a bladed batarang or grenade, or even a rock). That's not Batman, certainly not a ninja, that's Bat-moron. (or for that matter, not using the minor advantage your "lights out" device to escape or hide, or somehow regain the advantage).

As an audience we cringe, because we know our super-heroes aren't that stupid (arrogant maybe, overconfident, but not morons !)
The traps in the comics are usually a cut or two above this one at least (hence my DKR example).


One of your central points is that the film explains the issues I've raised. My argument above suggests that the explanations the film offers aren't particularly good, and some aren't any good at all.



Regardless, I have greatly enjoyed the challenges you've posed to my analysis, and where I'm wrong, I'm wrong -but you cannot convince me that the explanations the film offers are particularly good ones, or consistent with Superman in general.


Last edited by Batmannerism; 11-15-2013 at 07:11 PM. Reason: quotation error
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Old 11-15-2013, 08:44 PM   #305
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Man of steel-Sorry but the reimaging of superman falls Into Dark Knight/Michael Bay style version of Superman
IM A HATER.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I find Spider-Man 2 a bit overrated, mostly because of Ock's actions. Finishing his life's work is fine. Why do it where anyone could happen across it? I felt Peter was still too timid. It was fine in Spider-Man, but by this point I expected him to have gained a bit more confidence.

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Old 11-15-2013, 08:49 PM   #306
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The Dark Knight rises-very disappointing third act of trilogy
Iron Man 3-I have to laugh at TV ads calling it best of Iron Man films.It's RT
scare Is way too high.I place It with X-Men the Last Stand and Spider-man 3.
Man of steel-Sorry but the reimaging of superman falls Into Dark Knight/Michael Bay style version of Superman
I agree on TDKR and Iron Man 3 but Man of Steel is anything but overrated and hardly a "Michael Bay" Superman. Michael Bay wishes he was Zack Snyder.

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Old 11-15-2013, 10:28 PM   #307
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Here's the ones that come to my mind...

Batman Returns
Watchmen
Iron Man 3
Superman III
The Crow sequels
The Spirit

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Old 11-15-2013, 11:00 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Here's the ones that come to my mind...

Batman Returns
Watchmen
Iron Man 3
Superman III
The Crow sequels
The Spirit

Overrated would imply that there is a large consensus of people that actually like and praise the film. Superman III, Crow Sequels and Miller's The Spirit are not now, nor have ever been particularly praised or liked by either the general public or the CBM fan base. An argument could be made for the first three on your list.

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Old 11-16-2013, 01:49 AM   #309
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Yep, as always seems to happen with these threads, this has basically become a "Comic Book Films I Don't Like" thread.

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:28 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Joshua_B View Post
Here's the ones that come to my mind...

Batman Returns
Watchmen
Iron Man 3
Superman III
The Crow sequels
The Spirit

Dude.


Totally agree on IM 3, (I loved IM, awesome super-hero movie, and I'm a DC fan), but IM 3 had holes you could fly the helicarrier through.
Somehow critics and fans alike missed these.


As for Batman returns and Watchmen, usually people underrate those.
I don't know, but they made my underrated list. I think Batman Returns was the sequel to Batman we deserved, but not the one we needed....LOL.

Watchmen, well nobody was going to be able to adapt that one for the screen and not wear a ****load of criticism. Still, I thought Snyder did the best he could - the film still had most of the important aspects of the comic book.

The Crow sequels and The spirit. I think the Spirit holds a rating of about 10% on RT, and deservedly so -it's crap. So, nobody's really overrating these ones.

Anyway, I'm not hating on you, just questioning your list.

Okay, what do you think about Superman Returns (I've been fighting tooth and nail with somebody about that one) or Amazing Spider-Man (the reboot
we didn't need and didn't deserve) ?

cheers.

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:23 AM   #311
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Mind explaining those holes? I've seen the movie 10 ten times, and while it isn't flawless (what is?) I don't recall gaping plot holes.

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Old 11-16-2013, 03:58 AM   #312
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Mind explaining those holes? I've seen the movie 10 ten times, and while it isn't flawless (what is?) I don't recall gaping plot holes.

Dude, if you've seen Iron Man 10x then obviously you don't think it's overrated, which is what this thread about, and probably nothing I say will convince you that it's not a good movie. More power to you, glad you enjoyed it - I didn't and felt slightly ripped off.

I've just been in a huge argument about Superman Returns (which I hated, now that piece of **** was a giant rip-off, and I'm a massive Superman fan),
so I don't really want to debate this with you, so how about this ?

I'll tell you what I perceive to be plot holes, or perhaps if plot holes is the wrong word, things that are a bit shonky about this film IMO, and if you
don't agree, we'll just agree to disagree and move on.

If you write back with intensely well thought out logical explanations,
good for you, but at best I'll give IM 3 a second look.

Okay here goes.

1. Tony Stark challenges a terrorist who's been blowing up stuff all over the world, to attack him at home, and gives out his address.
And then he
- doesn't set up any kind of defences, like say the small army of
remote controlled suits he has in the basement

- continues to work on and use a suit that, while his most current, and therefore most advanced suit, hasn't got many of the usual functioning weapons.

- invites his girlfriend over ( despite the fact he knows, or at least should know an attack will be coming to his house), actually I can't remember if
he did invite her over, but she comes over anyway. He should have been like
"Pepper my life is in extreme danger, better head for the hills and lay low until this Mandarin thing is sorted out."

Tony Stark is genius, yes he's arrogant and a bit of a dick, but he's still a genius. This doesn't seem consistent with the character, don't you think.
I always thought of him more as the man who plans for everything.
Here he plans for nothing, particularly something he should reasonably foresee, because it was a fight that he himself picked.

2. Tony is saved by Pepper, which was lame, but again IMO. Of course, Killian survives the exploding Iron Man suit, but not an attack by Iron Man's secretary ? Extremis or no, that's a bit silly.

3. In the final 2-3 minutes of the film, Tony cures Pepper, gives up being Iron Man, has open heart surgery, and overcomes his anxiety problems. There's more character development in this tiny montage than in the rest of the movie, this is all the stuff that the rest of the movie should have been about, not crammed into the closing moments. It's called a character arc, and most good movies do it over a couple of hours. Hell, Shane Black used to do it over a couple of hours (Lethal Weapon, first movie, pure awesomeness) .

4. The Tony Stark Fan-boy TV guy with the tattoo , that was soooo cool ! Oh wait, no it wasn't.

5. The Mandarin. Even though I'm not an Iron Man fan, I know about the Mandarin, IM's arch enemy. The ten rings, being the name of the terrorist's club, that was a clever tie in to IM, and would have worked to symbolize the ten rings of power the Mandarin usually wears in the comics.
Not having the Mandarin be Chinese.....okay maybe. Not having the Mandarin be anything, but the world's lamest British actor (which was funny, got to give Sir Ben credit, he did a lot with that role) this is not a twist, this is taking
a rather important bit of the IM mythology and crapping all over it.

It would be a bit like Robin being the real hero, and Batman the side-kick.
Or that Tony Stark was actually a moron, and it was Jarvis working through the suit, and the one-arm-robot that did all the hard work and invented all
of Stark's technological marvels (actually that would probably work, the twist with the Mandarin, didn't).


6. The Iron Man Army: it's like Shane Black saw the first one and thought. Wow, there were 2 or 3 suits in that, and it was awesome, so 50 or so will be beyond awesomeness. Instead, that whole sequence came off just shy of the crap that Michael Bay tries to make us believe are action sequences, in his Transformers movies (much like Iron Man, the first one was great, after that....)


Anyway, that's just IMO, if you've seen it 10x and none of that stuff stood out to you, then obviously it's not a problem for you and that's cool. Don't write back with anything detailed, trying to prove me wrong, or provide explanations from the film. No need. Just say you disagree, IM 3 was great and we're good.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:31 AM   #313
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Because we all know Mandarin is like Robin, because the character isn't racist at all.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:40 AM   #314
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Because we all know Mandarin is like Robin, because the character isn't racist at all.

I have no real dog in the hunt of the whole "Mandarin Twist" debate (though my opinion is that MANDARIN TWIST would have made a great Snapple Flavor ). That being put out there... Mandarin, being adapted into live action does not have to be inherently racist. If you had got a Chow Yun Fat or a Watanabe or a Sanada to play the part, write him as a truly genius master of mystical martial arts AND the technology that is Stark's strong suit (not a pun, I swear) then... Yeah a more accurate Mandarin could have worked and not come off as racist. He'd just be a competent villain that happens to be Asian. Once again, the twist neither made the film fo me nor broke it. I actually like the big twist as they did it. But it could have gone another way with out it being a terrible caricature.

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Old 11-16-2013, 04:56 AM   #315
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1).....okay Marvel fanboys, sharpen your knives.....The Avengers.

Before I launch into it, I have to admit I'm much more of a DC, fan,
as a kid I think I owned 3 issues of Avengers, but otherwise thought they
were a bunch of prats.
Oh no, I'm a wounded Marvel fanboy, you just hurt my day *sniff*
Sometimes I prefer DC, other times I prefer Marvel, the loyalty to one over the other or more than the other isn't my kind of thing
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To be honest, character wise, Iron Man is ten times the film Avengers is
and absolutely deserves its 93%, it is arguably the best superhero movie
That's the percentage of the staff reviewing it and enjoying it
Out of 243 reviewers, 227 liked it
Average rating 7.6/10
Check it again

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Old 11-16-2013, 05:00 AM   #316
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I agree on TDKR and Iron Man 3 but Man of Steel is anything but overrated and hardly a "Michael Bay" Superman. Michael Bay wishes he was Zack Snyder.
The third act of Man Of Steel is similar to a Bay movie.

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Old 11-16-2013, 05:08 AM   #317
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Dude.


Totally agree on IM 3, (I loved IM, awesome super-hero movie, and I'm a DC fan), but IM 3 had holes you could fly the helicarrier through.
Somehow critics and fans alike missed these.


As for Batman returns and Watchmen, usually people underrate those.
I don't know, but they made my underrated list. I think Batman Returns was the sequel to Batman we deserved, but not the one we needed....LOL.

Watchmen, well nobody was going to be able to adapt that one for the screen and not wear a ****load of criticism. Still, I thought Snyder did the best he could - the film still had most of the important aspects of the comic book.

The Crow sequels and The spirit. I think the Spirit holds a rating of about 10% on RT, and deservedly so -it's crap. So, nobody's really overrating these ones.

Anyway, I'm not hating on you, just questioning your list.

Okay, what do you think about Superman Returns (I've been fighting tooth and nail with somebody about that one) or Amazing Spider-Man (the reboot
we didn't need and didn't deserve
) ?

cheers.
Even if that were true, just because you think a film is unnesseaary that doesn't mean it should affect how you judge a film.

Films should be reviewed on their own merits.

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Old 11-16-2013, 06:08 AM   #318
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The third act of Man Of Steel is similar to a Bay movie.
or rather being faithful to certain parts of the lore(which comes with the character) which could have never been properly showcased in live action film like:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


and then there's

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Pay attention to 4:15 onward

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Old 11-16-2013, 06:52 AM   #319
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or rather being faithful to certain parts of the lore(which comes with the character) which could have never been properly showcased in live action film like:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


and then there's

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Pay attention to 4:15 onward
Irrelevant. It being faithful to any sort of source material is, well, immaterial if it isn't actually well portrayed on film. This idea of MoS being faithful to whatever cherry-picked source material just dances around the issue, and I see this sort of reasoning peddled all the time. It's devoid of logic.

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Old 11-16-2013, 12:45 PM   #320
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Dude, if you've seen Iron Man 10x then obviously you don't think it's overrated, which is what this thread about, and probably nothing I say will convince you that it's not a good movie. More power to you, glad you enjoyed it - I didn't and felt slightly ripped off.

I've just been in a huge argument about Superman Returns (which I hated, now that piece of **** was a giant rip-off, and I'm a massive Superman fan),
so I don't really want to debate this with you, so how about this ?

I'll tell you what I perceive to be plot holes, or perhaps if plot holes is the wrong word, things that are a bit shonky about this film IMO, and if you
don't agree, we'll just agree to disagree and move on.

If you write back with intensely well thought out logical explanations,
good for you, but at best I'll give IM 3 a second look.

Okay here goes.

1. Tony Stark challenges a terrorist who's been blowing up stuff all over the world, to attack him at home, and gives out his address.
And then he
- doesn't set up any kind of defences, like say the small army of
remote controlled suits he has in the basement

- continues to work on and use a suit that, while his most current, and therefore most advanced suit, hasn't got many of the usual functioning weapons.

- invites his girlfriend over ( despite the fact he knows, or at least should know an attack will be coming to his house), actually I can't remember if
he did invite her over, but she comes over anyway. He should have been like
"Pepper my life is in extreme danger, better head for the hills and lay low until this Mandarin thing is sorted out."

Tony Stark is genius, yes he's arrogant and a bit of a dick, but he's still a genius. This doesn't seem consistent with the character, don't you think.
I always thought of him more as the man who plans for everything.
Here he plans for nothing, particularly something he should reasonably foresee, because it was a fight that he himself picked.

2. Tony is saved by Pepper, which was lame, but again IMO. Of course, Killian survives the exploding Iron Man suit, but not an attack by Iron Man's secretary ? Extremis or no, that's a bit silly.

3. In the final 2-3 minutes of the film, Tony cures Pepper, gives up being Iron Man, has open heart surgery, and overcomes his anxiety problems. There's more character development in this tiny montage than in the rest of the movie, this is all the stuff that the rest of the movie should have been about, not crammed into the closing moments. It's called a character arc, and most good movies do it over a couple of hours. Hell, Shane Black used to do it over a couple of hours (Lethal Weapon, first movie, pure awesomeness) .

4. The Tony Stark Fan-boy TV guy with the tattoo , that was soooo cool ! Oh wait, no it wasn't.

5. The Mandarin. Even though I'm not an Iron Man fan, I know about the Mandarin, IM's arch enemy. The ten rings, being the name of the terrorist's club, that was a clever tie in to IM, and would have worked to symbolize the ten rings of power the Mandarin usually wears in the comics.
Not having the Mandarin be Chinese.....okay maybe. Not having the Mandarin be anything, but the world's lamest British actor (which was funny, got to give Sir Ben credit, he did a lot with that role) this is not a twist, this is taking
a rather important bit of the IM mythology and crapping all over it.

It would be a bit like Robin being the real hero, and Batman the side-kick.
Or that Tony Stark was actually a moron, and it was Jarvis working through the suit, and the one-arm-robot that did all the hard work and invented all
of Stark's technological marvels (actually that would probably work, the twist with the Mandarin, didn't).


6. The Iron Man Army: it's like Shane Black saw the first one and thought. Wow, there were 2 or 3 suits in that, and it was awesome, so 50 or so will be beyond awesomeness. Instead, that whole sequence came off just shy of the crap that Michael Bay tries to make us believe are action sequences, in his Transformers movies (much like Iron Man, the first one was great, after that....)


Anyway, that's just IMO, if you've seen it 10x and none of that stuff stood out to you, then obviously it's not a problem for you and that's cool. Don't write back with anything detailed, trying to prove me wrong, or provide explanations from the film. No need. Just say you disagree, IM 3 was great and we're good.
I don't think you understand what the difference between "I didn't like this" and "Plot Holes" are....

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Old 11-16-2013, 01:30 PM   #321
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I don't think you understand what the difference between "I didn't like this" and "Plot Holes" are....
Going from some of the commentary I've seen as of late, I think about 90% of this community doesn't either. With most folks, I notice that "I like" = "great movie", and "I dislike" = "It wuz turrible!!!" No exceptions. I hardly ever hear "Not my cup of tea" anymore; nor will anyone admit to having guilty pleasures.

Too many people seem to take ownership in their taste in movies. Music too, for that matter, but that's a discussion for another...forum I suppose.

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Old 11-16-2013, 01:44 PM   #322
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or rather being faithful to certain parts of the lore(which comes with the character) which could have never been properly showcased in live action film like:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


and then there's

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
Pay attention to 4:15 onward
Moments i hate to see in a Superman story, doesn't excuse The Man of Steel

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Originally Posted by childeroland View Post
Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ebert
Most of the executives in Hollywood - in fact almost everyone in the movie industry - is smarter than almost all of the movies they make, and they know it. They're just not smart enough not to make them.
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Old 11-16-2013, 02:13 PM   #323
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Because we all know Mandarin is like Robin, because the character isn't racist at all.
I'm so sick of this excuse.As if there wasn't a possible way to write the character in an intelligent way,hire an Asian actor and somehow reflect the defining aspects of the character that he was related to in has multiple appearances in nearly 50 years.

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Old 11-16-2013, 02:19 PM   #324
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I'm so sick of this excuse.As if there wasn't a possible way to write the character in an intelligent way,hire an Asian actor and somehow reflect the defining aspects of the character that he was related to in has multiple appearances in nearly 50 years.
Yeah, all the rest of the characters have been changed and modernized, but Mandarin... oh no, that's impossible. We must turn him into a joke and a fake identity or else he will be exactly as 50 years ago by default.


Last edited by Senator Pleasury; 11-16-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 11-16-2013, 02:32 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil View Post
I don't think you understand what the difference between "I didn't like this" and "Plot Holes" are....

Fair comment.

I think I did mention that perhaps plot holes might have been
the wrong word for some of my comments.

for example:

I will admit that my Iron Man army comment and the TV guy are much more of a personal dislike than a plot hole. My problems with the Mandarin twist are not so much a plot hole, but really a plot idea that doesn't work.
The "resolve everything in 2 minutes at the end" montage was more of a comment on what I perceive as bad storytelling.

Also, Iron Man crappiest suit of armour he built in a cave worked like a dream and took out a small army of terrorists....yet the most advanced version of his armour, that he accesses during the inevitable attack (that he provoked) doesn't have fully functioning weapons. Not sure if that's really a plot hole,
but it's a bit shonky, almost as bad as Batman throwing that fire-cracker at Bane.

but come on, doesn't the whole, challenge-the-terrorist-to-attack-you-at-home-and-not-prepare-defences-when-you-have-an-army-in-the-basement
thing kind of grate on you. If it's something that happens for the convenience of the story, but doesn't make any sense then it's a plot hole.

Dude, that has got to be a plot hole, (although it's not as big as the plot hole
in Raiders of the Lost Ark). You could post an explanation of why that makes total sense if you like, but does that sound like Tony Stark to you ? The guy has a back-up plan for everything.

Even if it isn't a plot hole, it's so inconsistent with the character that it doesn't work. Sure, Tony being arrogant enough to pick a fight with the Mandarin and give out his address, sure that makes sense, if he'd prepared for it.

Anyway, if that works for you, cool. Glad you enjoyed IM 3.

Yes, the point of this thread is "overrated " cbm, but when you argue that a film is overrated, you need to provide reasons, which I did. And hey, if you don't like em, plot holes, poor storytelling, or just stuff that is inconsistent or doesn't make sense, it's all IMO anyway.

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