The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > General Movies > Misc. Comics Films

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-17-2013, 08:37 PM   #351
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 682
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

I think you misunderstood my "remembering" comment, I'm actually apologizing to you, as while I was pointing out a flaw in the way you
presented your argument, I did it in a somewhat disrespectful way.
Which was uncalled for.

Now, back to the Mandarin

1) Ethnicity

Haven't read a lot of Iron Man this century, although I kept up with his adventures in the 80's and 90's. Although in recent months I've updated myself in terms of the Extremis (titanomechs etc) storyline, the Mandarin (My life), (BTW in both the aforementioned stories, he was still Chinese, and still had power rings) and the wonderful story where Tony erases his own brain.....

Anyway, your argument seems to be that because Killian occupies the role in an Iron Man story, that the Mandarin character would occupy(i.e. a shadowy mastermind who serves as the primary antagonist, and has a grand scheme IM must foil), that makes him the Mandarin. This is a fair argument, but not one I find particularly persuasive.


(the suit and dragon tattoos argument I think is not quite so persuasive, as by that account my sister-in-law could be the Mandarin, and she too occasionally breathes fire).

Before I attack your list of ethnicity changes, I submit that sometimes you CAN change a character's ethnicity or even their gender (e.g. Starbuck, I met Katee Sackhoff, and she's nothing like the character, she's really nice),
and still have them be essentially the same, unless.......
their gender or ethnicity is a key characteristic of that character.

E.g. You could make Captain America white, Hispanic, Black, or nearly any ethnicity, so long as he's American and the culture references he makes and operates under are American. If you make Captain America a Canadian, it doesn't work quite so well (although he might start promoting free health care rather than wasting time with the Red Skull).



IN terms of ethnicity changes.....

An American Blade, where he was a Brit in the comics= I have a Dr. Strange issue in which he's American, I think it's from 1984.
  • A British Xavier, who was originally American = necessary to explain Patrick Stewart's accent, and I believe comics Prof X went to Oxford anyway.
  • A white Ra's Al Ghul, originally Arab(I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong) = who knows really, what ethnicity he really is.
However, everyone I spoke to who's seen the character picked the twist right away, including my wife, who's a journalist, has never read Batman, and only came to Batman Begins to humour me.

  • An Irish Bullseye, originally American = not a great film and not a great depiction of the character. Probably an argument, not to make arbitrary changes in a character.
- A white...ahem..."John Harrison", originally Indian(played by a Mexican)
Fair call, there are significant differences in the portrayal -particularly as ST TWOK, the character's main motivation and storyline is about revenge against Kirk personally. Lots of Moby Dick analogies.
A bit different from STID
However, the key feature, genetically engineered superman, with the belief he's better than everyone else, remains.

- black Kingpin, Harvey Dent, Electro, and Nick Fury, all of whom were originally white.

Kingpin= works because of the physical frame resemblance, and presence of Michael Clarke Duncan (RIP)
Electro ? who knows till TASM 2 comes out.

Nick Fury = hmmmm not a great example, as in the Ultimate marvel continuity he's been Black from Day one, and was actually modelled on SLJ.



My point is, that the Mandarin's ethnicity has been a key feature of stories involving him, perhaps not in the last 2-3 years (well except the My Life story, where it's absolutely fundamental that he's Chinese), as such I am not persuaded it's something you can change and still call the character ... the Mandarin.

What would have been simpler would be to have Aldrich Killian just be...Aldrich Killian, and be a flunky of the Mandarin. I submit that would have worked better. Kudos to Shane Black for trying to be creative, but then we all know that creativity is usually measured by the extent to which it succeeds.

2) Tony's blunder

Again, my argument is that the past is the best indicator of the future (although it isn't a particularly good one).

The explanation that you and the film are submitting, is that Tony Stark,
a genius, with access to an army of Iron Man suits in his basement, an Avenger, who's battled evil demi-gods, an alien invasion, and survived being kidnapped by terrorists, and was able to make an arc reactor and a prototype IM suit (in a cave), while barely alive, picks a fight with a seemingly unstoppable terrorist, and invites an attack at his home (which he gives away the location of).....

up until this point I'm with you, but then....

......AND then neglects to raise any defences, countermeasures or effective early warning systems, and gets taken out by a helicopter missile attack.

He does this because, you explain, he's overtired and suffering from PTSD.
If them film had dared to suggest "because he didn't see it coming" I probably would have left at that point.

(yet, he could still work on his suits, including the mark 42 (I think) armour, and design the system which allows it to fly itself onto his body, and perform an investigation on the explosion which injured poor old Happy. )

There are explanations for every plot hole in every movie (including Star Wars' "gunnery officer not destroying life pod, even though they lived in a society full of droids" or the Raiders of the Lost Ark "Indiana Jones made no difference to the outcome, re the Nazis, but hey without him the Ark might not have made it into that museum").

The question is, are these explanations reasonable, so we go "okay" or are they such a stretch that we see a hole in the writing ?

I submit that while you and the film do provide an explanation, it falls into the latter category.

However, as you said, it is unlikely we will agree on this. Which is fine, actually it works out better for you, because then you will have enjoyed IM 3, and got your money's worth.

Thank you again for your logic and well-reasoned arguments.

( I'm hoping you didn't like Superman returns, because if you did we're destined to lock ideological horns again).

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2013, 11:16 AM   #352
BoredGuy
Killing Time
 
BoredGuy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: the future past
Posts: 2,827
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

I think to be "Overrated" a movie needs to be generally... highly rated in the first place.

Someone can argue IM3 is "overrated" on Rotten Tomatoes, or IMDB, or that it made more money than it deserves. But when talking about here on the hype, or in general amongst internet CBM fans, it would be hard to argue that IM3 is highly rated, given all the flack it catches from people who either hate the twist, hate the humor, or just DC fans who wish Superman did better at the box office. There's not exactly a large majority here talking about how awesome and perfect the movie was, even those who like it admit there are a number of flaws.

Therefore, being that it's not highly rated, it can't really be over-rated

__________________
MOVIE STUDIO BATTING AVERAGES:
MARVEL- .777 SONY- .500 WB- .357 FOX- .333
BoredGuy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2013, 11:29 AM   #353
Spider-Aziz
Like a Charm
 
Spider-Aziz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 31,780
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visualiza View Post
So far in cinema, we've had the following changes in race/ethnicity:
  • An American Blade, where he was a Brit in the comics
  • A British Xavier, who was originally American
  • A white Ra's Al Ghul, originally Arab(I believe; please correct me if I'm wrong)
  • An Irish Bullseye, originally American
  • A white...ahem..."John Harrison", originally Indian(played by a Mexican)
  • A black Kingpin, Harvey Dent, Electro, and Nick Fury, all of whom were originally white.
Changing from American to Irish or British counts as Ethnic difference regardless of being white?
Yeah, Ra's is for head (should be pronounced Raas, not Raysh, there's no word like Raysh) and Ghul is for Ogre
Nick Fury shouldn't count, they took Ultimate Nick Fury, his look was based on Sam Jackson, and they got the Sam Jackson to play him, just like Mark Millar made Nick say when they talked about who should play who in a movie. They took a comic design of him, unlike the rest

__________________
State Your Opinion on a Marvel Character, Part 1
If something is not a choice, but I do it, doesn't this mean I chose to do it instead of choosing to ignore it or to find an alternative? Aren't they all choices by the end of the process?
We're abusing our acronym privileges... ~ Sawyer
Spider-Aziz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2013, 04:02 PM   #354
crazyuser
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 25
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

I think the Avengers is the most overrated comic book film so far

crazyuser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2013, 04:57 PM   #355
Samarus
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 150
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

It may be a very unpopular opinion, but i agree with crazyuser.
I liked The Avengers, but for me it's just a big, funny explosion, no more no less. I just don't get, why it's so damn hyped.

Samarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2013, 11:31 PM   #356
RustyCage
Come what may..
 
RustyCage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Gotham
Posts: 4,000
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spider-Aziz View Post
Yeah, Ra's is for head (should be pronounced Raas, not Raysh, there's no word like Raysh) and Ghul is for Ogre
Thank you.

I know the counter-argument is that the character's creator, Dennis O'Neil, pronounces it 'Raysh', and some people have cooked up a convoluted multi-language Frankenstein of a reason as to why, but I'm going to go out on a (well-supported) limb and say it's simply wrong, regardless of who says it's right.

O'Neil, bless him, didn't invent the language he used to name Ra's, so his word is not Gospel.

It's an Arabic name, and he was clearly designed to be a character of classical/historical Middle Eastern culture. Plain and simple.

Google Translate (and most Middle Eastern fans I've seen talking about it, some of whom I know personally) pronounces it this way:

http://translate.google.com/#en/ar/ra%27s%20al%20ghul

Click the little speaker icon on the right box under the Arabic translation to hear the appropriate audio clip.

If you want to hear how they say "Head of the Demon" instead of "Ra's al Ghul", it's still nothing like 'Raysh':

http://translate.google.com/#en/ar/h...%20the%20demon

It's more like 'rah-ees' or 'rah-is'. Either way, the application of 'Rah' is, in both translations, consistent with the English interpretation of the name as heard in Batman Begins. Frankly, it's much more menacing and less goofy sounding, so I'm going to say Begins upgraded us on this one.

I adore BTAS, but I'd rather just let the pronunciation evolve gracefully than turn my nose up and stubbornly worship Denny O'Neil and BTAS as if they can do no wrong.

Batman is always growing and (usually) improving. It's bigger than one interpretation, and it's okay to fix some slip-ups as we continue to reboot and strengthen the franchise. First, though, we must admit to their existence.

That is all.

__________________
Why do we fall?

Last edited by RustyCage; 11-25-2013 at 01:47 AM.
RustyCage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 08:38 AM   #357
DarkKnight
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 178
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samarus View Post
It may be a very unpopular opinion, but i agree with crazyuser.
I liked The Avengers, but for me it's just a big, funny explosion, no more no less. I just don't get, why it's so damn hyped.
Double agreed with you and Crazyuser. I did enjoy The Avengers, I own the blue ray. but I didn't enjoy it as much as TDKT or The Man of Steel.

DarkKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 08:44 AM   #358
Lord
All Mighty
 
Lord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 11,150
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Agreed about The Avengers being overrated, for such an event film i expected it to be more "eventful"

__________________
STAR WARS
Returns 2015


Quote:
Originally Posted by childeroland View Post
Plenty of male-led action films fail, yet the actors' gender is not blamed. Why should it be different for women? Especially since far more male-led action films are made than female-led action films?
Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 10:48 AM   #359
KangConquers
Purple Kang, Purple Kang
 
KangConquers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,604
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

The Dark Knight Rises. It's one of those films that you enjoy when you watch it, but then you sit back and think later, and it bothers you. There are more holes in the plot than swiss cheese, and it specializes in leaps in logic.

__________________
Dream MCU phase 3:

2015: Ant-Man
2016: Thor: Ragnarok, Doctor Strange
2017: Captain America: Secret Empire, Black Panther
2018: The Incredible Hulk: Rise of the Leader, Guardians of the Galaxy: War of Kings
2019: The Inhumans, Avengers: Thanos Imperative
KangConquers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 04:06 PM   #360
def28
Side-Kick
 
def28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,504
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samarus View Post
I just don't get, why it's so damn hyped.
Look at how much people love Iron Man alone. All good if you dont like it anything more then a funny big film. Everyone has their own taste/style in fims. But Its really not difficult to figure out why Avengers has hype/appeal. Right now, its one of a kind, and stems from other successful films that most people love to watch.


Last edited by def28; 11-25-2013 at 04:52 PM.
def28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 04:57 PM   #361
Samarus
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 150
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

I get the Iron Man hype (at least for the first one), i like the movie very much, too. But it has substance/themes/a meaning (war industry etc.). I don't see substance in The Avengers, but I would love to be enlightened by someone, so I can join the group of hypers.
To make my post more edgy, I will go as far and say:
The Avengers is just a less dumb Superhero Transformer

Samarus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #362
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 682
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
The Dark Knight Rises. It's one of those films that you enjoy when you watch it, but then you sit back and think later, and it bothers you. There are more holes in the plot than swiss cheese, and it specializes in leaps in logic.

Dude, you are speaking the justice ! I loved TDKR when I went to see it (actually won tickets to a special premiere down here in NZ, so I saw it 2 days before everyone in the rest of the world, so I was really psyched up to
go and see it). Came out really happy with it.

Later, thought about exactly what you said, how it pretty much glosses over some rather large leaps in logic (I would say very, very close to plot holes, like really close, the biggest one being how Batman survived the nuke).....and why does it suggest we accept these leaps and holes, because he's BATMAN !


It bugged me for a while, but then I just let go of it. Which worked for me. Yeah, if you analyse it closely, you find a lot of cracks,
but if you just enjoy the experience it's still fun ( I guess it'd be like looking at an impressive statue from a distance, and then getting close enough to see the cracks and bird**** on it).

I still liked the film, and consider it a worthy conclusion to the DK trilogy, maybe more in spirit than in execution, but I can't deny that it has a bunch of flaws.

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 05:38 PM   #363
def28
Side-Kick
 
def28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6,504
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samarus View Post
I get the Iron Man hype (at least for the first one), i like the movie very much, too. But it has substance/themes/a meaning (war industry etc.). I don't see substance in The Avengers, but I would love to be enlightened by someone, so I can join the group of hypers.
To make my post more edgy, I will go as far and say:
The Avengers is just a less dumb Superhero Transformer
I think you already made your mind up. Not trying to convince you otherwise on your own personal views on the flick. Just that if you cant see why that film scored as well as it did with audiences and has the hype it does, you may just be not seeing the full draw and that maybe a crowd pleasing fun flick is enough for audiences. Audiences love Transformers too. Nothing wrong with that. Not every one goes to the movies specifically for deep allegories and darker themes. The characters were already built with substance in their solos. Avengers was about them coming together and fighting a bad guy to save the world. And it put out on that. Its alot of movie magic and crowd pleasing fun times. Some people want more drama,real world issues and grit. Others fun and adventure. Alot of people enjoy the fun of that film for the charismatic actors and solid adventure alone. Even without the solos.


Last edited by def28; 11-25-2013 at 06:09 PM.
def28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2013, 10:34 PM   #364
A Necessary Evil
Peter Parker: Spider-Man
 
A Necessary Evil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Virginia
Posts: 6,568
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Dude, you are speaking the justice ! I loved TDKR when I went to see it (actually won tickets to a special premiere down here in NZ, so I saw it 2 days before everyone in the rest of the world, so I was really psyched up to
go and see it). Came out really happy with it.

Later, thought about exactly what you said, how it pretty much glosses over some rather large leaps in logic (I would say very, very close to plot holes, like really close, the biggest one being how Batman survived the nuke).....
Not. A. Plot. Hole.

A plot hole is much different from plot contrivance.

__________________
It's a sad day when Bayformers 4 looks better than a Spider-Man film to me.

Missing you, Heath
A Necessary Evil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 03:35 AM   #365
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 682
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Necessary Evil View Post
Not. A. Plot. Hole.

A plot hole is much different from plot contrivance.

Deja vu, we've had this one out already, but here goes.

a rebuttal in three parts.


First,

You need to chill out, getting this annoyed about something so minor
isn't good for you.


Second, I didn't say plot hole, I said close to plot hole.

A plot hole is an apparently illogical or nonsensical part of a film.
Now every film that has these offers explanations for them.

However, if the explanations don't make sense, or are such a stretch
these nonsensical parts become.......plot holes.

I've added this link, which may entertain you, as you sound like you could
use a laugh.

http://www.moviemistakes.com/best/plothole

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/plot...-and-paradoxes


Third,
ON to the alleged plot hole, or plot contrivance.

You tell me if this stretches disbelief so far that it becomes a plot hole.

At the end of the film Batman flies a weaponized nuclear fusion reactor out over the ocean in order to save Gotham,

To clear the 6 mile blast radius he needs to travel 6 miles in under a minute (there was probably less time, but I haven't watched TDKR in a little while, and before I continue, like I said, I really enjoyed it, but I'm not oblivious to its shortcomings).

Anyway, to travel 6 miles in 60 seconds, Batman has to fly at 360 mph ( 1 mile every 10 seconds). Assuming the bat can reach that speed, despite the drag of the bomb, he is now 6 miles offshore. Actually he has to fly faster, because none of the blast wave hits the city. But lets stick with 6 miles.

(I've heard the "he changed Bats theory" when he blasted through that building, but given that he would have had to do that in about 5 seconds, and have to have purposefully placed another Bat, in/on that particular building ahead of time,
As I say, there are only five seconds from the moment he presses the button on the control stick, to the appearance of the Bat through the smoke, I don't buy the changeover in that time myself, and when we see his face in the Bat immediately afterwards anyway, he's still apparently flying the same direction).


Okay, proceeding from that, there are approximately 10 seconds left when we last see him in the cockpit of the bat. We see his face and then cut to the clock with 5 seconds left. Again, if he ejects now, he's still got to travel several miles in several seconds.

(a shame, because if we hadn't seen that it would have been possible for him to eject much earlier while the Bat flies the bomb out with the autopilot, that we later find out works).

Wikipedia says a 1 kiloton bomb would generate a thermal pulse that would cause 3rd degree burns to 500 meters, a blast wave to 600 metres and a lethal radiation pulse to 900 metres. The bomb in TDKR was 4 megatons,
so 4000 times more powerful than the one I just mentioned. This suggests that Dr. Pavel and Nolan's math is probably a bit shaky.

So Batman has to get clear of the blast.

Anyway, to get clear of the lethal radiation, or at least the blast wave,
Batman has to travel 6 miles in about 10 seconds.

If he travels 1 mile per second he's travelling at 3600 mph.
Now, the fastest helicopters on Earth can fly at 300mph, so that seems a bit much, even for the Bat. So, if he turned around and flew back, he'd have to be flying very, very fast.

Even if he dropped the bomb into the ocean, and turned around, he'd really have to motor (but then what was the point of the autopilot thing).

There are a bunch of possible explanations, but they're all quite a stretch,
so much so, that in fact they're approaching plot hole status.

Personally, the explanation I like best, and I'm okay with is BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN !

I submit that this is more than a plot contrivance (Bruce getting back from India, or wherever the Pit was, to Gotham, and onto the occupied Gotham city island, on the very day before the bomb was set to go off, that's a bit convenient, but I'll accept it as a plot contrivance.

Bruce recovering from a serious back injury in a few months sufficiently to climb out of the pit and fight Bane... that's a contrivance, bordering on plot hole - I've had a minor back injury and I wouldn't be attempting a climb like that, or a full on fight to the death, for anything less than at least 6 months (not that I engage in full on fights to the death....well not very often anyway).

Again, who cares, he's Batman.

If none of these stretch your disbelief, so that they remain plot contrivances, that's fine, good for you. But I suggest to you that these things (while they seem to make sense when you watch TDKR for the first time) when you think about them, suspend disbelief so tenuously, as to be plot holes.

QED.

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 09:19 PM   #366
KangConquers
Purple Kang, Purple Kang
 
KangConquers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,604
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Dude, you are speaking the justice ! I loved TDKR when I went to see it (actually won tickets to a special premiere down here in NZ, so I saw it 2 days before everyone in the rest of the world, so I was really psyched up to
go and see it). Came out really happy with it.

Later, thought about exactly what you said, how it pretty much glosses over some rather large leaps in logic (I would say very, very close to plot holes, like really close, the biggest one being how Batman survived the nuke).....and why does it suggest we accept these leaps and holes, because he's BATMAN !


It bugged me for a while, but then I just let go of it. Which worked for me. Yeah, if you analyse it closely, you find a lot of cracks,
but if you just enjoy the experience it's still fun ( I guess it'd be like looking at an impressive statue from a distance, and then getting close enough to see the cracks and bird**** on it).

I still liked the film, and consider it a worthy conclusion to the DK trilogy, maybe more in spirit than in execution, but I can't deny that it has a bunch of flaws.
It's an incredibly well made film based on a tangled, illogical script.

__________________
Dream MCU phase 3:

2015: Ant-Man
2016: Thor: Ragnarok, Doctor Strange
2017: Captain America: Secret Empire, Black Panther
2018: The Incredible Hulk: Rise of the Leader, Guardians of the Galaxy: War of Kings
2019: The Inhumans, Avengers: Thanos Imperative
KangConquers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2013, 09:23 PM   #367
jaymes_e06
Side-Kick
 
jaymes_e06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Indiana unfortunately....
Posts: 13,117
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
It's an incredibly well made film based on a tangled, illogical script.
This.

__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRYPTON INC. View Post
The numbered jaymes is right!! :yay:
*\S/T*
jaymes_e06 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 07:11 PM   #368
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 682
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by KangConquers View Post
It's an incredibly well made film based on a tangled, illogical script.

Well said! Brevity is the soul of wit.

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2013, 11:18 PM   #369
Evil Twin
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,328
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Batmannerism View Post
Deja vu, we've had this one out already, but here goes.

a rebuttal in three parts.


First,

You need to chill out, getting this annoyed about something so minor
isn't good for you.


Second, I didn't say plot hole, I said close to plot hole.

A plot hole is an apparently illogical or nonsensical part of a film.
Now every film that has these offers explanations for them.

However, if the explanations don't make sense, or are such a stretch
these nonsensical parts become.......plot holes.

I've added this link, which may entertain you, as you sound like you could
use a laugh.

http://www.moviemistakes.com/best/plothole

http://www.denofgeek.com/movies/plot...-and-paradoxes


Third,
ON to the alleged plot hole, or plot contrivance.

You tell me if this stretches disbelief so far that it becomes a plot hole.

At the end of the film Batman flies a weaponized nuclear fusion reactor out over the ocean in order to save Gotham,

To clear the 6 mile blast radius he needs to travel 6 miles in under a minute (there was probably less time, but I haven't watched TDKR in a little while, and before I continue, like I said, I really enjoyed it, but I'm not oblivious to its shortcomings).

Anyway, to travel 6 miles in 60 seconds, Batman has to fly at 360 mph ( 1 mile every 10 seconds). Assuming the bat can reach that speed, despite the drag of the bomb, he is now 6 miles offshore. Actually he has to fly faster, because none of the blast wave hits the city. But lets stick with 6 miles.

(I've heard the "he changed Bats theory" when he blasted through that building, but given that he would have had to do that in about 5 seconds, and have to have purposefully placed another Bat, in/on that particular building ahead of time,
As I say, there are only five seconds from the moment he presses the button on the control stick, to the appearance of the Bat through the smoke, I don't buy the changeover in that time myself, and when we see his face in the Bat immediately afterwards anyway, he's still apparently flying the same direction).


Okay, proceeding from that, there are approximately 10 seconds left when we last see him in the cockpit of the bat. We see his face and then cut to the clock with 5 seconds left. Again, if he ejects now, he's still got to travel several miles in several seconds.

(a shame, because if we hadn't seen that it would have been possible for him to eject much earlier while the Bat flies the bomb out with the autopilot, that we later find out works).

Wikipedia says a 1 kiloton bomb would generate a thermal pulse that would cause 3rd degree burns to 500 meters, a blast wave to 600 metres and a lethal radiation pulse to 900 metres. The bomb in TDKR was 4 megatons,
so 4000 times more powerful than the one I just mentioned. This suggests that Dr. Pavel and Nolan's math is probably a bit shaky.

So Batman has to get clear of the blast.

Anyway, to get clear of the lethal radiation, or at least the blast wave,
Batman has to travel 6 miles in about 10 seconds.

If he travels 1 mile per second he's travelling at 3600 mph.
Now, the fastest helicopters on Earth can fly at 300mph, so that seems a bit much, even for the Bat. So, if he turned around and flew back, he'd have to be flying very, very fast.

Even if he dropped the bomb into the ocean, and turned around, he'd really have to motor (but then what was the point of the autopilot thing).

There are a bunch of possible explanations, but they're all quite a stretch,
so much so, that in fact they're approaching plot hole status.

Personally, the explanation I like best, and I'm okay with is BECAUSE HE'S BATMAN !

I submit that this is more than a plot contrivance (Bruce getting back from India, or wherever the Pit was, to Gotham, and onto the occupied Gotham city island, on the very day before the bomb was set to go off, that's a bit convenient, but I'll accept it as a plot contrivance.

Bruce recovering from a serious back injury in a few months sufficiently to climb out of the pit and fight Bane... that's a contrivance, bordering on plot hole - I've had a minor back injury and I wouldn't be attempting a climb like that, or a full on fight to the death, for anything less than at least 6 months (not that I engage in full on fights to the death....well not very often anyway).

Again, who cares, he's Batman.

If none of these stretch your disbelief, so that they remain plot contrivances, that's fine, good for you. But I suggest to you that these things (while they seem to make sense when you watch TDKR for the first time) when you think about them, suspend disbelief so tenuously, as to be plot holes.

QED.

It's a movie and the director is cheating for dramatic effect. It's not really a plot hole, Batman ejected and the autopilot carried the bomb the rest of the way, but it is definitely manipulative of time and audience emotions. Perhaps clumsily and unnecessarily manipulative is the better way to phrase it since all movies are manipulative.

Evil Twin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 03:30 AM   #370
Spider-Aziz
Like a Charm
 
Spider-Aziz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 31,780
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
Thank you.

I know the counter-argument is that the character's creator, Dennis O'Neil, pronounces it 'Raysh', and some people have cooked up a convoluted multi-language Frankenstein of a reason as to why, but I'm going to go out on a (well-supported) limb and say it's simply wrong, regardless of who says it's right.

O'Neil, bless him, didn't invent the language he used to name Ra's, so his word is not Gospel.

It's an Arabic name, and he was clearly designed to be a character of classical/historical Middle Eastern culture. Plain and simple.

Google Translate (and most Middle Eastern fans I've seen talking about it, some of whom I know personally) pronounces it this way:

http://translate.google.com/#en/ar/ra%27s%20al%20ghul

Click the little speaker icon on the right box under the Arabic translation to hear the appropriate audio clip.

If you want to hear how they say "Head of the Demon" instead of "Ra's al Ghul", it's still nothing like 'Raysh':

http://translate.google.com/#en/ar/h...%20the%20demon

It's more like 'rah-ees' or 'rah-is'. Either way, the application of 'Rah' is, in both translations, consistent with the English interpretation of the name as heard in Batman Begins. Frankly, it's much more menacing and less goofy sounding, so I'm going to say Begins upgraded us on this one.

I adore BTAS, but I'd rather just let the pronunciation evolve gracefully than turn my nose up and stubbornly worship Denny O'Neil and BTAS as if they can do no wrong.

Batman is always growing and (usually) improving. It's bigger than one interpretation, and it's okay to fix some slip-ups as we continue to reboot and strengthen the franchise. First, though, we must admit to their existence.

That is all.

__________________
State Your Opinion on a Marvel Character, Part 1
If something is not a choice, but I do it, doesn't this mean I chose to do it instead of choosing to ignore it or to find an alternative? Aren't they all choices by the end of the process?
We're abusing our acronym privileges... ~ Sawyer
Spider-Aziz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 05:04 AM   #371
Batmannerism
Side-Kick
 
Batmannerism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 682
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Twin View Post
It's a movie and the director is cheating for dramatic effect. It's not really a plot hole, Batman ejected and the autopilot carried the bomb the rest of the way, but it is definitely manipulative of time and audience emotions. Perhaps clumsily and unnecessarily manipulative is the better way to phrase it since all movies are manipulative.
True. As you say, clumsy. The fact that Bruce is alive at the end is proof he ejected and let the Bat do the work (unless you subscribe to the "Alfred's dreaming" theory. But, the fact that he shows Batman's face, clearly in the Bat, then cuts immediately to the 5 second count down bugs me, a bit.
I'm sure Nolan could do better - e.g. the ending of Inception, which really does leave it up to you to decide.

However, I still enjoyed the film, and don't mind watching it again. And to be honest, I was glad Bruce survived, as he certainly deserved a "happy ending" after all the crap he'd been through.

There's been some quite heated debate about what a plot hole is (and what it isn't). For myself, I go along with those who say that when something happens in a film, that doesn't seem to make sense, and the explanation leads to more questions than it answers, you're in plot hole territory.

Batmannerism is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 08:02 AM   #372
DA_Champion
Side-Kick
 
DA_Champion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Canberra, Australia
Posts: 2,983
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

I just saw Iron Man 3, and I cannot believe that POS made 1.1 billion dollars, and got high scores on both IMDB and RT. Definitely the most overrated in my book.

DA_Champion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 10:35 AM   #373
KangConquers
Purple Kang, Purple Kang
 
KangConquers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,604
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by da_champion View Post
i just saw iron man 3, and i cannot believe that pos made 1.1 billion dollars, and got high scores on both imdb and rt. Definitely the most overrated in my book.
1.2 b.

__________________
Dream MCU phase 3:

2015: Ant-Man
2016: Thor: Ragnarok, Doctor Strange
2017: Captain America: Secret Empire, Black Panther
2018: The Incredible Hulk: Rise of the Leader, Guardians of the Galaxy: War of Kings
2019: The Inhumans, Avengers: Thanos Imperative
KangConquers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 05:36 PM   #374
JKKS085
Side-Kick
 
JKKS085's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Paris, France.
Posts: 711
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Superman
Superman II
Batman 89
Batman Returns
X-Men
X2
Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2
Batman Begins
The Dark Knight
Iron Man
Thor
X-Men First Class
Captain America
The Avengers
The Dark Knight Rises
Iron Man 3

Some films on this list are actually quite decent if you get to see them once by accident but most of it is just mediocre cinema put on pedestal by emotionnaly subnormal fans who needed to see their subculture take on an entire medium.

The only films I get to enjoy are those staying true to a source material originally meant for prepubescent individuals, like Batman Forever, Ghost Rider or lately Green Lantern.

__________________
My Deviant Art Page:http://j-k-k-s.deviantart.com/
JKKS085 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-28-2013, 05:48 PM   #375
KangConquers
Purple Kang, Purple Kang
 
KangConquers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 6,604
Default Re: Overrated Comic Book Films

Quote:
Originally Posted by JKKS085 View Post
Superman
Superman II
Batman 89
Batman Returns
X-Men
X2
Spider-Man
Spider-Man 2
Batman Begins
The Dark Knight
Iron Man
Thor
X-Men First Class
Captain America
The Avengers
The Dark Knight Rises
Iron Man 3

Some films on this list are actually quite decent if you get to see them once by accident but most of it is just mediocre cinema put on pedestal by emotionnaly subnormal fans who needed to see their subculture take on an entire medium.

The only films I get to enjoy are those staying true to a source material originally meant for prepubescent individuals, like Batman Forever, Ghost Rider or lately Green Lantern.

__________________
Dream MCU phase 3:

2015: Ant-Man
2016: Thor: Ragnarok, Doctor Strange
2017: Captain America: Secret Empire, Black Panther
2018: The Incredible Hulk: Rise of the Leader, Guardians of the Galaxy: War of Kings
2019: The Inhumans, Avengers: Thanos Imperative
KangConquers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:01 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.