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Old 08-03-2013, 09:39 AM   #1
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Arrow Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superman?

Generally I don't mind either way, as I'm not a Batman fan. But do some of you who like Batman feel a bit 'robbed' when you see Batman wuss-out? The only time Batman's lack of menace might bother me is if he waves the finger at Superman.

There is a difference between justice and the law obviously. And I think Batman puts the law above justice, while Superman is wise enough to see justice and not be blinded by the law. Then again, Batman didn't receive guidance from Jor-El and merely thinks like a human (not a mistake, just a limitation).

Maybe in the next film we will see Superman enlighten Batman and educate him on the limitations of the law and the need for real justice.

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Old 08-03-2013, 09:44 AM   #2
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Are you trolling?

You watched MOS right? What makes you think Supes is going to choose to kill again after his reaction to killing Zod?

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Old 08-03-2013, 09:45 AM   #3
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Batman doesn't really care about the law. If he did, he wouldn't be Batman.

INTERNAL laws, however

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Old 08-03-2013, 10:07 AM   #4
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Neither heroes should be killing. Having said that, only one modern Batman has not killed, and that is Clooney, however, in that series, he began as a mass murderer.

This is clearly supposed to be some kind of trolling Superman vs Batman thread, and in that spirit:







5/10, made me respond.

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Old 08-03-2013, 10:28 AM   #5
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

I still don't think that it was Superman who killed Zod, and anyways, no hero should kill. Ever.

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Old 08-03-2013, 10:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

^ Except in real life

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Old 08-03-2013, 10:31 AM   #7
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Quote:
Originally Posted by MANOFSTEELtrilogy View Post
Generally I don't mind either way, as I'm not a Batman fan. But do some of you who like Batman feel a bit 'robbed' when you see Batman wuss-out? The only time Batman's lack of menace might bother me is if he waves the finger at Superman.

There is a difference between justice and the law obviously. And I think Batman puts the law above justice, while Superman is wise enough to see justice and not be blinded by the law. Then again, Batman didn't receive guidance from Jor-El and merely thinks like a human (not a mistake, just a limitation).

Maybe in the next film we will see Superman enlighten Batman and educate him on the limitations of the law and the need for real justice.
So much wrong in this post.

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Old 08-03-2013, 12:03 PM   #8
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

It wasn't Superman who killed Zod. I think that much is clear. He's not a manchild who hid from his true calling because Daddy Dearest MkII hornswaggled him into it.

'You need to hide, Clark'.

'Why?'

'Well because I said so and because people are xenophobes'.

'Nope, don't buy it'.

'Fine, I'll just let this tornado kill me'.

'Okay, you've convinced me'.

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Old 08-03-2013, 12:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

SHH poster Shikamaru posted this in another thread. All that needs to be said imo. Great post by him.

The claim that "Batman not killing is BS" is BS in-and-of-itself. Out of all the superheroes in comics, the no-kill rule is more important to Batman than any other superhero and it forms who he is as a person more than any other superhero. This includes even Superman.

The vast majority of other superheroes don't kill simply because they're superheroes and killing is bad...because they're superheroes. It doesn't work that way for Batman. The reason for why he does not kill and does not use guns is engrained into his character. These two things have molded him and his mythos in a way that they haven't molded any other character and his mythos.

There are so many reasons for why this is the case that requires me to get into the entire essence and philosophy behind Batman and his mythos but I'll keep it simple: Notice how often the no-kill theme plays a roll in Batman stories. In most other superhero stories, it is there but is more concealed and only comes out once in a while throughout their stories. In Batman stories, the theme is constantly there and is in many ways the very core of many stories. Also notice how much controversy and disgust a lot of people have for Batman not killing the Joker. Some people have even said that they can't stand Batman altogether because of that. When you think about it, shouldn't they feel this way about most superheroes since it is a known fact that most superheroes don't kill? Yet barely anyone critiques Superman and Spider-Man for not killing Lex and the Green Goblin respectively, who are both far more dangerous than Joker in the first place. Batman gets so much more criticism in comparison to them for simply not killing a street-level psychopath. This is because, as I said (and I hate to say this since I really like both Spidey and Supes), there is no other superhero whose no-kill rule is as attached to the core of their being as it is to Batman.

When you make it ok for Batman to kill, you not only change him but you change his entire world. You completely alter the Batman/Joker dynamic. The Batman/Ra's dynamic. The Batman/Gordon dynamic. His friendship with Superman. The entire message behind vigilantism that comes with Batman. Robin's entire purpose for existing is gone. Everything about Batman as we know him and his world as we know it would completely change, and I don't think people realize this.

If you do not like the idea of Batman's no-kill rule being so attached to him, Batman is not a character that's meant for you in the same way how the Punisher is not a character aimed at people who don't like the idea of superheroes killing. I am not trying to offend anyone for saying this, but it is essentially true and there is nothing wrong with that. There is no comic book character that can be targeted and loved by everyone. That's not to say that you can't be bothered once in a while or have disturbing thoughts here and there about Batman's decision to spare the Joker (we all have those sometimes, even the hardcore fans) but if it constantly disturbs you to the point that it affects your overall enjoyment of Batman content and your overall opinion of Batman, then Batman is not a character designed to appeal to you personally.

As a side note, I find it very interesting how much criticism Batman gets for his methods from a political point of view. It seems that left-wings always critique him for having methods that are too extreme while right-wings critique him more for not having methods extreme enough.

Also, the claim that Batman is sparing the Joker for selfish reasons is not really true. In a way, he is keeping Gotham and the whole world more safe. That may sound ridiculous, but allow me to explain.

Psychologically speaking, Batman is a monster in human form. Bruce Wayne has intentionally transformed himself into such a larger-than-life creature. As Dennis O'Neil and Frank Miller once said, the interesting thing about Batman is that he is a monster but is on the good side. This same creature that is currently on our side walks on the edge of insanity every night. The only thing keeping him away from crossing that line - a line very thin when it comes to someone like Batman - is his no-kill rule. From the moment he breaks that rule, he has crossed that line. If he justifies one murder, he will be able to do it again.

That is where the issue with Batman killing arises. Batman is no cop. If a cop was to murder someone, he would still be bound by the laws of the legal system that would prevent him from crossing that line. And even if the cop did cross that line, it would barely have any effect because cop are just ordinary people with limits.

On the other hand, Batman does not have those luxuries. He answers to no one and is a larger-than-life creature not bound by human limits. Think about what it would mean if someone like Batman went around killing people. He is the world's greatest detective. Arguably the world's greatest tactician. Arguably the most obsessed and most motivated superhero in the DC universe to get the job done. Has prepared contingency plans to take down any member of the JLA if they were to go rogue. Is this really someone you would want to go around deciding who gets to live and who gets to die? Imagine the danger that would come from that. There would be very little people could do to stop Batman in that situation.

On top of that, it is not Batman's job to kill the Joker in the first place. He set out to stop crimes from happening. Once he stopped the crime at hand, he lets the (honest) police take care of the rest. It is entirely up to the Gotham City Hall what happens from that point on and whether or not the Joker gets to live. And if the Joker got the death penalty tomorrow, Batman would have no problem with it (yes, I know there is a story where the Joker got the death penalty and Batman intervened but I found it to be very out of character).

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Old 08-03-2013, 12:36 PM   #10
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

I hope Bats gives Supes endless grief about killing Zod, making Supes vow to never kill...then Batman kills like 40 people.

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Old 08-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #11
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama_Shepherd View Post

This is clearly supposed to be some kind of trolling Superman vs Batman thread, and in that spirit:





5/10, made me respond.
This is glorious

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Old 08-03-2013, 01:19 PM   #12
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Originally Posted by MANOFSTEELtrilogy View Post
Generally I don't mind either way, as I'm not a Batman fan. But do some of you who like Batman feel a bit 'robbed' when you see Batman wuss-out? The only time Batman's lack of menace might bother me is if he waves the finger at Superman.

There is a difference between justice and the law obviously. And I think Batman puts the law above justice, while Superman is wise enough to see justice and not be blinded by the law. Then again, Batman didn't receive guidance from Jor-El and merely thinks like a human (not a mistake, just a limitation).

Maybe in the next film we will see Superman enlighten Batman and educate him on the limitations of the law and the need for real justice.
Um, my guess is that Batman will "educate" Superman in that killing is a no-no. Because honestly Superman is not a killer. Snyder went for a profound ending by having him break his rule at the end of MOS, but that was bad/lazy writing because the rule was never established to begin with. If you want to see that ending done right, watch TDK where Batman has to kill a friend he once admired (Harvey Dent) to save a child of another friend, while he lets something as repugnant as the Joker live.

Now there is a moral quagmire. Snyder's Superman killed someone because Snyder is infatuated with physical violence. It is the same reason for his speed ramping in 300 and the added gore and severed limbs and bone-through-skin injuries put into Watchmen.

So, I am sure they will both kill the joint villain at the end of the movie.

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Old 08-03-2013, 03:10 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
Batman doesn't really care about the law. If he did, he wouldn't be Batman.

INTERNAL laws, however
Exactly. I dont see Batman waiving a warrant around before breaking and entering peoples houses. And what about all the assaults he has committedover the years. There is a reason Batman never became a cop. He is above the law. Superman does not consider himself above the law.

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Old 08-03-2013, 04:54 PM   #14
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Batman in the Burton films actively kills people. He creates situations where people will die.
Batman intentionally kills the joker, he could have let him go and caught him later.
Nolans Batman for the most part does not. But like Superman in Man of Steel, there comes a point where a choice needs to be made. He killed Dent but because it was the only way to save the boy and if he could have saved Dent he would have.

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Old 08-03-2013, 04:58 PM   #15
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Burton's Batman straps dynamite to a thug. Surely he could have found another way to handle this guy, but nope, lets strap dynamite to him and blow him up and then smirk about it. But it's ok, the thug's death came off screen.

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Old 08-03-2013, 09:47 PM   #16
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That is beautiful.

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Old 08-03-2013, 09:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

I don't think Batman really needs to kill. Sort of the advantage of dealing with mortal enemies, you can knock out. Superman didn't really have a choice with Zod.

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Old 08-03-2013, 10:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

I wouldn't be surprised if this new Batman has killed plenty of people.

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Old 08-03-2013, 11:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Yes he is justified, but to be completely honest, I wish Batman was more like the Punisher at times.

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Old 08-04-2013, 12:06 AM   #20
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

EDIT: I copied and pasted a rant I wrote on a previous thread here only to notice that someone has already done it first.

Thank you, StraightDix.


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Old 08-04-2013, 12:15 AM   #21
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Originally Posted by StraightSix View Post
SHH poster Shikamaru posted this in another thread. All that needs to be said imo. Great post by him.

The claim that "Batman not killing is BS" is BS in-and-of-itself. Out of all the superheroes in comics, the no-kill rule is more important to Batman than any other superhero and it forms who he is as a person more than any other superhero. This includes even Superman.

The vast majority of other superheroes don't kill simply because they're superheroes and killing is bad...because they're superheroes. It doesn't work that way for Batman. The reason for why he does not kill and does not use guns is engrained into his character. These two things have molded him and his mythos in a way that they haven't molded any other character and his mythos.

There are so many reasons for why this is the case that requires me to get into the entire essence and philosophy behind Batman and his mythos but I'll keep it simple: Notice how often the no-kill theme plays a roll in Batman stories. In most other superhero stories, it is there but is more concealed and only comes out once in a while throughout their stories. In Batman stories, the theme is constantly there and is in many ways the very core of many stories. Also notice how much controversy and disgust a lot of people have for Batman not killing the Joker. Some people have even said that they can't stand Batman altogether because of that. When you think about it, shouldn't they feel this way about most superheroes since it is a known fact that most superheroes don't kill? Yet barely anyone critiques Superman and Spider-Man for not killing Lex and the Green Goblin respectively, who are both far more dangerous than Joker in the first place. Batman gets so much more criticism in comparison to them for simply not killing a street-level psychopath. This is because, as I said (and I hate to say this since I really like both Spidey and Supes), there is no other superhero whose no-kill rule is as attached to the core of their being as it is to Batman.

When you make it ok for Batman to kill, you not only change him but you change his entire world. You completely alter the Batman/Joker dynamic. The Batman/Ra's dynamic. The Batman/Gordon dynamic. His friendship with Superman. The entire message behind vigilantism that comes with Batman. Robin's entire purpose for existing is gone. Everything about Batman as we know him and his world as we know it would completely change, and I don't think people realize this.

If you do not like the idea of Batman's no-kill rule being so attached to him, Batman is not a character that's meant for you in the same way how the Punisher is not a character aimed at people who don't like the idea of superheroes killing. I am not trying to offend anyone for saying this, but it is essentially true and there is nothing wrong with that. There is no comic book character that can be targeted and loved by everyone. That's not to say that you can't be bothered once in a while or have disturbing thoughts here and there about Batman's decision to spare the Joker (we all have those sometimes, even the hardcore fans) but if it constantly disturbs you to the point that it affects your overall enjoyment of Batman content and your overall opinion of Batman, then Batman is not a character designed to appeal to you personally.

As a side note, I find it very interesting how much criticism Batman gets for his methods from a political point of view. It seems that left-wings always critique him for having methods that are too extreme while right-wings critique him more for not having methods extreme enough.

Also, the claim that Batman is sparing the Joker for selfish reasons is not really true. In a way, he is keeping Gotham and the whole world more safe. That may sound ridiculous, but allow me to explain.

Psychologically speaking, Batman is a monster in human form. Bruce Wayne has intentionally transformed himself into such a larger-than-life creature. As Dennis O'Neil and Frank Miller once said, the interesting thing about Batman is that he is a monster but is on the good side. This same creature that is currently on our side walks on the edge of insanity every night. The only thing keeping him away from crossing that line - a line very thin when it comes to someone like Batman - is his no-kill rule. From the moment he breaks that rule, he has crossed that line. If he justifies one murder, he will be able to do it again.

That is where the issue with Batman killing arises. Batman is no cop. If a cop was to murder someone, he would still be bound by the laws of the legal system that would prevent him from crossing that line. And even if the cop did cross that line, it would barely have any effect because cop are just ordinary people with limits.

On the other hand, Batman does not have those luxuries. He answers to no one and is a larger-than-life creature not bound by human limits. Think about what it would mean if someone like Batman went around killing people. He is the world's greatest detective. Arguably the world's greatest tactician. Arguably the most obsessed and most motivated superhero in the DC universe to get the job done. Has prepared contingency plans to take down any member of the JLA if they were to go rogue. Is this really someone you would want to go around deciding who gets to live and who gets to die? Imagine the danger that would come from that. There would be very little people could do to stop Batman in that situation.

On top of that, it is not Batman's job to kill the Joker in the first place. He set out to stop crimes from happening. Once he stopped the crime at hand, he lets the (honest) police take care of the rest. It is entirely up to the Gotham City Hall what happens from that point on and whether or not the Joker gets to live. And if the Joker got the death penalty tomorrow, Batman would have no problem with it (yes, I know there is a story where the Joker got the death penalty and Batman intervened but I found it to be very out of character).
I was going to paste this as well. Definitely all that needs to be said. I feel there are more Superman fanboys than Batman here. Also a mixture of outright Batman haters or people who are ignorant of the character.

I read someone refer to Batman as a "cancer" of the DC cinematic universe.

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Old 08-04-2013, 07:54 AM   #22
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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^ Except in real life
Yes, except in real life. But there, they honestly don't have a choice. When Superman, Batman or any other fictional character does it, that's just bad writing.

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Old 08-04-2013, 10:27 AM   #23
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Originally Posted by D.P. View Post
I read someone refer to Batman as a "cancer" of the DC cinematic universe.
How the most easily adaptable hero of comics is the "cancer" of DCCU is beyond me...

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Old 08-04-2013, 10:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Quote:
Originally Posted by MANOFSTEELtrilogy View Post
Generally I don't mind either way, as I'm not a Batman fan. But do some of you who like Batman feel a bit 'robbed' when you see Batman wuss-out? The only time Batman's lack of menace might bother me is if he waves the finger at Superman.

There is a difference between justice and the law obviously. And I think Batman puts the law above justice, while Superman is wise enough to see justice and not be blinded by the law. Then again, Batman didn't receive guidance from Jor-El and merely thinks like a human (not a mistake, just a limitation).

Maybe in the next film we will see Superman enlighten Batman and educate him on the limitations of the law and the need for real justice.
I don't think Batman needs "justification" for his decisions. He has set a standard for himself, and lives by it. Case closed.

I also don't think he's "wussing out". I think it takes far more skill and restraint to operate as he does, as opposed to going for the quick solution. Batman is not liscensed to kill, regardless.

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Old 08-04-2013, 11:25 AM   #25
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Yes, except in real life. But there, they honestly don't have a choice. When Superman, Batman or any other fictional character does it, that's just bad writing.
Because in good, accurate writing, there is always a choice.

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