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Old 08-05-2013, 07:02 PM   #76
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Is everyone assuming that Batman doesn't kill in this interpretation? He did kill Harvey Dent at the end of The Dark Knight, showing that there are times to him that he's willing to cross the line.
Agreed and I honestly don't buy on how some say that he wasn't aware of how his push would kill Dent.

Plus, he also killed Talia's truck driver.

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:05 PM   #77
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

I expect him to be a killer.

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:20 PM   #78
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

People act like Batman hasn't killed before, he's done it twice on film, both are not like how Superman killed Zod so some might try to dismiss them, but the fact is 2 people died directly due to Batman's actions.

1. Batman killed The Joker (Batman 1989), some may argue some kind of ******** that Batman didn't know the statue would come off the building and was just trying to keep the Joker from going anywhere, however there are 2 outcomes where the Joker would have died, the first is exactly what happened, he fell to his death. The second, say the gargoyle didn't break and was strong enough to hold Joker in place, the helicopter would have flown away cause all they saw was Joker on the rope, so to them its "ok boss is on, lets GTFO!" and take off, making Joker again fall, but this time have him smash into the side of the building......any one know how physics work? If not, anyone know how Gwen Stacy died, exact same thing.....well not exact but same rules applies.


2. Batman killed Ra's Al Ghul (Batman Begins 2005). Batman knew from the start exactly where Ra's was, he knew what was going to happen to the train, yet he still goes and disables any chance of stopping the train, then runs away.....flies away whatever....Batman planned the whole thing and that ladies and gentlemen is murder.

Point is, he may not have actually put his hands around someone's throat and snapped their necks, but Batman has killed in the past, pretty well every hero has at some point of time. What matters is why they did it, for both Superman & Batman is was done to literally stop the deaths of millions of innocent lives.....for Iron Man it was to stop his....lets say "uncle"....from taking over his company and continue to sell weapons.....or to stop someone who was out from revenge on Tony himself.....and all the innocents Tony puts in harms way to being with....oh and then he jokes about it......but Iron Man is acceptable......why?.....still trying to figure that one out myself....

Does it truly justify their actions, not really, but then again we are talking about a world of fiction where the low level bad guys are as bad as our real world most wanted bad guys.


***edit***

just saw Sage's point, make it 3 people lol

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:23 PM   #79
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

both batman and superman have killed on rare occasions. they do what is necessary for the sake of their people. but on any other occasion, they will not kill.

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:33 PM   #80
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

There was a time when it was only the Punisher, now these heroes today kill in these films. However Superman is the only one to actually cry on camera about it lol.

Yes even spidey has killed, the first time was debatable, the second not so much.

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Old 08-05-2013, 07:47 PM   #81
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Wolverine always killed, GA killed as far back as the 80's, WW has killed, etc. Burton's Batman wasn't Batman, he was the Punisher in a cowl. Also, Harvey's death doesn't count since it was an accident, he was trying to save Gordon's son and they happened to roll over the side.

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Old 08-05-2013, 08:26 PM   #82
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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.....for Iron Man it was to stop his....lets say "uncle"....from taking over his company and continue to sell weapons.....or to stop someone who was out from revenge on Tony himself.....and all the innocents Tony puts in harms way to being with....oh and then he jokes about it......but Iron Man is acceptable......why?.....still trying to figure that one out myself....
Marvel characters tend to get away with it because Marvel comics tend to be a lot more "Gray" than DCs, and that's an intentional choice on the part of both companies I think. For instance, you'd think X-Men would be the standard bearers of the No-Kill rule in Marvel comics, because their whole shtick is that the GA doesn't trust them and lumps them in with Magneto's group. Having that rule would help set them apart, but they don't, and it's weird. Iron Man has never really dealt with it to my knowledge.

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Old 08-05-2013, 08:38 PM   #83
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Out of the X-Men, Wolverine, Cyclops, Storm, Psylocke, Magneto, X-23, Colossus, Majik, Domino, Cable, Bishop, Forge, Doctor Nemesis, and Deadpool all kill, and those are just off the top of my head, there are others. They are diverse in race, religion, powers, and morally viewpoints. Also, their backgrounds influence their views of killing.

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Old 08-05-2013, 09:05 PM   #84
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

Guys my point about Iron Man is that looks he goes and kills guys who really have no intention of hurting anyone but Tony Himself, sure they will kill people who get in the way but that's maybe 1 or 2 people. The only real menace in the movies that Tony has faced was the Mandarin but for the sake of this argument (and the fact that Pepper killed him, not Tony) I'm leaving him out lol.

The GA accepts Tony being a killer and one who laughs and jokes about it, ppl praise him yet condem the characters like Superman & Batman who have both killed in the past but to save millions/billions and they don't joke about it afterwords, it haunts them that they did something like that but push on because they have to.

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Old 08-05-2013, 09:10 PM   #85
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Wolverine always killed, GA killed as far back as the 80's, WW has killed, etc. Burton's Batman wasn't Batman, he was the Punisher in a cowl. Also, Harvey's death doesn't count since it was an accident, he was trying to save Gordon's son and they happened to roll over the side.
No Burton's Batman was Batman, Schumacher's Batman wasn't Batman lol.

And yes Harvey Dent does count cause we are not talking about if it was on purpose or an accident, the fact is Dent died cause Batman tacked him over a ledge lol

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Old 08-05-2013, 09:16 PM   #86
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

No, Batman's rule refers to deliberately killing people (ie becoming an executioner). Not things that happen accidentally while trying to save an innocent child.

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:23 PM   #87
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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No, Batman's rule refers to deliberately killing people (ie becoming an executioner). Not things that happen accidentally while trying to save an innocent child.
that does not matter, bottom line is, if he did it intentionally or not, he caused the death of Harvey Dent, in any court of law Batman would be found guilty of murder, it makes no difference to the act itself if Batman did it on purpose or not.

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:27 PM   #88
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

With the presence of the Avengers in the universe, Stark's reason for killing one of his singular villains becomes a little more complicated...
(by complicated I mean, makes no heroic sense)

As for batman, he saves lives, even in the Nolan verse. He goes out of his way to do so. It's why Joker was caught during his freefall.
That doesn't explain dent and more importantly the Ra's family. I still find it odd we are all sweeping talia under the rug, I mean how does anyone explain this?

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:30 PM   #89
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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With the presence of the Avengers in the universe, Stark's reason for killing one of his singular villains becomes a little more complicated...
(by complicated I mean, makes no heroic sense)

As for batman, he saves lives, even in the Nolan verse. He goes out of his way to do so. It's why Joker was caught during his freefall.
That doesn't explain dent and more importantly the Ra's family. I still find it odd we are all sweeping talia under the rug, I mean how does anyone explain this?
.......once again....edit to my other post......4 people lol

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:00 AM   #90
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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No Burton's Batman was Batman, Schumacher's Batman wasn't Batman lol.
Every Batman was Batman. You may not like every take on the character (I know I don't), but they are all valid in their ways.

And one of the very few interesting things in MoS was that Superman killed Zod. If there's one reason for me to watch the sequel, it would be to see the reprecussions of Superman's choice.

However, as hopefuldreamer stated, the ending of MoS swept everything under the rag; the Metropolis fight, Zod's death, everything. It made the movie look very dishonest in its intentions. At least the Avengers had a passing montage of people grieving. MoS has Clark feeling cautiously triumphant when talking with Ma Kent and Steve Lombard asking women to go out with him to a football game. Yes, life goes on, but seriously? They chose to convey it THAT way?

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:08 AM   #91
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Generally I don't mind either way, as I'm not a Batman fan. But do some of you who like Batman feel a bit 'robbed' when you see Batman wuss-out? The only time Batman's lack of menace might bother me is if he waves the finger at Superman.

There is a difference between justice and the law obviously. And I think Batman puts the law above justice, while Superman is wise enough to see justice and not be blinded by the law. Then again, Batman didn't receive guidance from Jor-El and merely thinks like a human (not a mistake, just a limitation).

Maybe in the next film we will see Superman enlighten Batman and educate him on the limitations of the law and the need for real justice.
"wuss-out"? Are you joking? Batman's strength of will is his most powerful attribute. You think he is scared to kill the Joker? "Oohh wussy batman scared of the sight of blood." That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Superman killing was out of character. And Zack Snyder better treat that as his reason for never taking another life. Batman killing would be (in my opinion) far more out of character. And I hope we never see him kill ever again (e.g. Dent) on screen. And I mean ever.

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Old 08-06-2013, 07:43 AM   #92
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Every Batman was Batman. You may not like every take on the character (I know I don't), but they are all valid in their ways.

And one of the very few interesting things in MoS was that Superman killed Zod. If there's one reason for me to watch the sequel, it would be to see the reprecussions of Superman's choice.

However, as hopefuldreamer stated, the ending of MoS swept everything under the rag; the Metropolis fight, Zod's death, everything. It made the movie look very dishonest in its intentions. At least the Avengers had a passing montage of people grieving. MoS has Clark feeling cautiously triumphant when talking with Ma Kent and Steve Lombard asking women to go out with him to a football game. Yes, life goes on, but seriously? They chose to convey it THAT way?
No, all the boss kills in the bat films(with the exception of maybe Dent) were swept under the rug in closing, the ones in other cbm's even moreso. MoS at least addressed their "Boss kill" to some degree.
It is "boss kills" I assume you are talking about. Speaking of killing, how are any of the avengers dealing with the sheer population of aliens they killed in their movie(stark in particular)? Any tears shed?

Again my point, addressed. MoS did alot of that, people seem to argue for more but mix their words with "at all".

As for the passing montage, if a 3 seconds of memorial footage laced into an expositional news cast in the 9/11 style would be the cure all that would have had the detractors ok with all the death, then I won't believe the deaths are even that big a problem to them, honestly. At least some people have argued for a scene where perhaps some of the victims have a real time scene in which they may even address superman himself or he him self visit a memorial...etc. A 3 seconds of embedded nothing in which we are told something else...
sure I guess.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:41 AM   #93
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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There was a time when it was only the Punisher, now these heroes today kill in these films. However Superman is the only one to actually cry on camera about it lol.

Yes even spidey has killed, the first time was debatable, the second not so much.
And we know how much of a cry-baby Spidey so Superman's reaction carries even more weight.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:41 AM   #94
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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Every Batman was Batman. You may not like every take on the character (I know I don't), but they are all valid in their ways.

And one of the very few interesting things in MoS was that Superman killed Zod. If there's one reason for me to watch the sequel, it would be to see the reprecussions of Superman's choice.

However, as hopefuldreamer stated, the ending of MoS swept everything under the rag; the Metropolis fight, Zod's death, everything. It made the movie look very dishonest in its intentions. At least the Avengers had a passing montage of people grieving. MoS has Clark feeling cautiously triumphant when talking with Ma Kent and Steve Lombard asking women to go out with him to a football game. Yes, life goes on, but seriously? They chose to convey it THAT way?
I'm sure the last part where Clark is pretty happy and what not and Lombard asking Lois out all happens at a later time maybe even a month later or more, but they could have had a scene or two that showed the ppl starting to rebuild and maybe a headline asking if Kal-El was friend or foe. But none of that has anything to do with this topic so I'm stopping here lol

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:42 AM   #95
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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"wuss-out"? Are you joking? Batman's strength of will is his most powerful attribute. You think he is scared to kill the Joker? "Oohh wussy batman scared of the sight of blood." That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Superman killing was out of character. And Zack Snyder better treat that as his reason for never taking another life. Batman killing would be (in my opinion) far more out of character. And I hope we never see him kill ever again (e.g. Dent) on screen. And I mean ever.
That was kind of implied in interviews. Though I am not fond of the idea that someone has to kill in order to realize how painful it is to not do it again.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:43 AM   #96
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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No, Batman's rule refers to deliberately killing people (ie becoming an executioner). Not things that happen accidentally while trying to save an innocent child.
If Batman is so smart then there should be no accidents.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:44 AM   #97
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^ That's wild logic. Accidents are kind of inevitable, especially in high stress situations.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:46 AM   #98
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Default Re: Is Batman justified when he refuses to kill? Do you wish he was more like Superma

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"wuss-out"? Are you joking? Batman's strength of will is his most powerful attribute. You think he is scared to kill the Joker? "Oohh wussy batman scared of the sight of blood." That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

Superman killing was out of character. And Zack Snyder better treat that as his reason for never taking another life. Batman killing would be (in my opinion) far more out of character. And I hope we never see him kill ever again (e.g. Dent) on screen. And I mean ever.
I'd only considered Superman killing Zod out of character if he spit on the ground, dusted off his hands, and walked away saying, "That's that." But he did nothing like that. Superman's action was not out of character -- it was about building character.


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Old 08-06-2013, 08:49 AM   #99
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^ That's wild logic. Accidents are kind of inevitable, especially in high stress situations.
I was being a bit facetious...

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:55 AM   #100
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Don't get me wrong. I found it immensely emotionally powerful. It rocked me to my very core.

That was what made my heart break with such extreme force.

Cavill's performance, the whole silence of the scene, the violence of it... it shocked the hell out of me.

But it was in a way that I never ever wanted a Superman story to make me feel. It was a moment of absolute defeat. Superman was broken.

But ultimately, despite that emotional moment, they painted it as the 'right' choice straight after...

It was such a weird thing to do. To show the very act of it in such a way that it makes you feel this sense of defeat, regret and loss, and then start talking about how proud JK would be of him and how Clark wishes he could have seen what he turned out to be...



My faith is shattered.
You definitely make strong point, I guess I just didn't make those personal connections.

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