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Old 08-03-2013, 11:33 PM   #1
Skrilla31
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Default Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I wonder what happens if Ledger doesn't die.

I know this would never have happened but imagine if Nolan and Bale had it in them for 5-6 films instead of only 3. They could have just kept building and building on the world they created with each new film.

The way you set it up is that Joker has inspired the rest of the freaks in Gotham City to reveal themselves, thus creating a new status quo in Gotham where it's constantly under the threat of these crazed super criminals. And which each new movie Batman encounters a new deadly foe.

In the next movie you pick up shortly after The Dark Knight left off. Batman goes into hiding because the people don't trust him and don't want him around anymore. So a new mastermind criminal who calls himself The Riddler tries to bring Batman out of hiding by committing all of these outlandish crimes and reaching out to him through various riddles. The problem is the guy is an absolute genius and he's always ten steps ahead of Gordon and the police dept. So when the crimes become too great to ignore, the people of Gotham realize that the only one who could stop this guy is Batman. I think that would have been a real interesting dynamic and creates some interesting discussion. Do the people of Gotham have the right to call for Batman's help knowing they've already damned him? Is Batman responsible if he chooses not to play The Riddler's game? What are the consequences for all involved?

And what you do is you start world building. You write Cobblepot into the story as like a more prominent Daggett type character, a crooked white collar criminal who's linked to Riddler's deeds. You write Selina Kyle into the story. You bring Heath back for a small appearance as Joker. You establish a world with all these characters existing in it. Batman, Joker, Penguin, Catwoman, Riddler... now you have a fully realized Gotham.

By the end of the events of movie #3, the people of Gotham understand that times are different now and that the threats have become too great... and so they are finally ready to call upon Batman whenever they need him. I also think it strongly mirrors current times seeing as how it looks we all have to come to grips with this new reality of random threats. Planes being flown into buildings, school shootings, theater shootings, marathon bombings, etc.. it's a different time. It's a new day.

By the time we start movie #4, we are now finally at the "prime" stage of Batman's career. The learning curve is over. Batman is firmly in control. I think now is a good time to write Robin into the story. Not sure who the villain needs to be for this one but the crux of the story would be about that Batman and Robin relationship. Remember the criminal organizations have all run amok because of guys like Joker, Penguin and Ridder. There is no one guy in charge anymore but rather sects of Gotham - or turf - where the various super villains have marked their own. Maybe this movie can go to Black Mask. Of course by the end of the movie Batman and Robin have become a team and take him down.

Movie #5 is where everything goes to s***. This is where maybe you can go the Knightfall route with Bane and just make this one the darkest f'n Batman movie of all time. Take all the famous "bad moments" and just toss them in. Batman gets his back broken by Bane, Robin gets killed by The Joker... just by the end of it Batman has to be a miserable wretch because Movie #6 is where you can cap it off with movie that resembles The Dark Knight Returns.

I don't know I just love this idea of a fully realized Gotham universe that is expanded over the course of several movies. And I think The Dark Knight really left the door so wide open with possibilities and I just wonder what might have been had Heath not died. I know they had plans to end it with the third movie but I do know they had wanted to Heath to come back as well. So who knows, maybe it would have been even bigger and they decide to stretch the story beyond 3 films.

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Old 08-04-2013, 10:04 AM   #2
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

The way I see it, if Ledger was still alive he would have played a role to TDKR but not a large one. Maybe instead of the Gordon letter, Joker would have unveiled the truth about Harvey Dent and becomes the Judge as he has proven that the system that Dent represented is rotten. (I final Joke to the system).

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Old 08-04-2013, 12:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

Nolan was tired of this world and would not do more than three. He never wanted to repeat himself, that is why we never got a "rogue of the week" story from him. And after Joker, that is sadly what Riddler would be perceived as. So, it still would have ended with a third huge film, but would Bane and Talia be in it? I don't know. Catwoman probably would have been in some capacity. The city would have become No Man's Land and Bruce would have retired forever at the end. Thematically that was the obvious next step.

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Old 08-04-2013, 12:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

Don't know. Perhaps he could be a sub plot for when Gotham is quarintened off.

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Old 08-04-2013, 01:30 PM   #5
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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Nolan was tired of this world and would not do more than three. He never wanted to repeat himself, that is why we never got a "rogue of the week" story from him. And after Joker, that is sadly what Riddler would be perceived as.
I think I would have really gotten a kick out of "rogue of the week" approach, with each of the villains still retaining their roles in the future films. Riddler could have been the main antagonist but like I said you could still write Joker into the story in a smaller capacity. Perhaps the film could have cut back and forth between the main story and Joker's trial or something like that.

Like Joker says in TDK,

"There's no going back. You've changed things... forever. "

Batman's arrival triggered the rise of the first great super criminal, Joker. What this does is establish the new status quo in Gotham from here on out. I think it makes sense that a lunatic like Nigma finally saw an opening to reveal himself to the world. He's been inspired.

Ridder isn't like Joker though in that he's not a homicidal maniac. So his movie would have much a different feel - and a different type of threat - than the one in TDK. No mass murders, no random killings... Riddler's crimes would work on a whole different level. Sort of like the "stock market caper" we saw in TDKR. And that's where you could write in Penguin too. You could have Cobblepot linked to Riddler's operation, or he could just be depicted as a crooked white collar criminal who's a natural foe to Bruce Wayne. But what you do is you keep these characters around for the duration of the entire series. So Joker can still play a vital role later down the line if you need him to.

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Old 08-04-2013, 02:54 PM   #6
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

Not that much, i can see the script not being sloppyish in the parts that it was. Problably a more tight story closer to No Man's Land. Maybe Joker would serve as a Hannibal Lecter, that is what i would have done.

More i think of it the more i see what a brilliant choice was to adapt No Man's Land and Knightfall.

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Old 08-04-2013, 03:10 PM   #7
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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Nolan was tired of this world and would not do more than three. He never wanted to repeat himself, that is why we never got a "rogue of the week" story from him.
But he did kind of do that, didn't he? We did get "the rogue of the week" after Begins.


- After the success of the Joker in Dark Knight, of course they have another IMAX "villain introduction prologue" that showcases another big bad. Batman Begins never did this. TDKR is considered "Bruce Wayne's story" right? Well, the villain introduction in TDKR, as cool as it is, really serves no purpose to the story accept, LOOK AT THIS COOL STUNT AND THIS BAD ASS NEW VILLAIN. They even touch on Pavel missing and the bomb later on in the film several times. Imagine what they could have done with that 6 minutes instead, Bruce and Gordon certainly come to mind.

- Bruce underestimating a villain, yet again

- Alfred preaching to Bruce about the villain while/after Bruce is analyzing his next move in his headquarters

- Diabolical plot involving the city

- Batman overcoming obstacles and beating the villain with his gauntlets and a quip directed at the villain again

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Old 08-04-2013, 09:34 PM   #8
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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- After the success of the Joker in Dark Knight, of course they have another IMAX "villain introduction prologue" that showcases another big bad. Batman Begins never did this. TDKR is considered "Bruce Wayne's story" right? Well, the villain introduction in TDKR, as cool as it is, really serves no purpose to the story accept, LOOK AT THIS COOL STUNT AND THIS BAD ASS NEW VILLAIN. They even touch on Pavel missing and the bomb later on in the film several times. Imagine what they could have done with that 6 minutes instead, Bruce and Gordon certainly come to mind.
On a thematic level it actually establishes some parallels between Bruce and Bane and sets him up as the anti-Batman (Stuff like "No one cared who I was before I put on the mask" and the blatant visual parallel to Batman's extraction of Lau in TDK).

Of course, it is a big villain introductory set piece to start the movie with bang. But like a lot of scenes in Nolan movies, it's serving multiple functions at once.

Plus, technically the prologue to the prologue is the bit of Gordon's eulogy so it's a slight deviation from TDK's formula. And it's obviously foreshadowing the eventual fate of Batman's symbol ("It will be a long time before someone inspires us the way he did...).

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Old 08-05-2013, 02:01 AM   #9
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

"Plus, technically the prologue to the prologue is the bit of Gordon's eulogy so it's a slight deviation from TDK's formula. And it's obviously foreshadowing the eventual fate of Batman's symbol ("It will be a long time before someone inspires us the way he did...)."

See, this is why I love TDKR and consider it the best of the three, although I do love all of them.

There are so many layers in this film. I hadn't even thought/realized how that line foreshadows what ultimately happens with Batman's symbol! I love subtle details like that. Thank you, BatLobsterRises, you just gave me one more reason to love TDKR.

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Old 08-05-2013, 02:57 AM   #10
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

This is very difficult for me to answer. There would have been a lot of different ways the third movie would have went in if Ledger hasn't died. Even if he wouldn't have been one of the major villains in TDKR, the film would have still been very different than the film that we got. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is subjective and varies from person to person on here, mainly depending on what their opinion of TDKR is.

What would I have personally done? I don't want to sound as if I would have stooped to the generic "villain of the week" formula but assuming that TDK was going to be the second film in a long ongoing Batman franchise, I would have had the Joker pop up here and there throughout the franchise. In some films, he would be one of the big bads. In others, he wouldn't even be in them. In other films, he would have a small role or a cameo. It would have been a continuation of the "You and I will do this forever" idea presented at the end of TDK.

However, I'm noticing pretty much everyone saying the same thing I am so I thought it would be fun if I tried to incorporate the Joker into TDKR's basic story (that is the TDKR that got made and not whatever would have been TDKR if Ledger was alive). I would have done something similar to The Dark Knight Returns, especially since TDKR was one of the major influences of TDKR (no pun intended). I would have had the Joker return for one final battle with Batman that would have ended with the Joker's death. He wouldn't have been the main villain and the battle would have been about as long as the battle in the book. The battle would have served as the conclusion to their long ongoing war.

Assuming that the plot for the most part would have been the same (Bane taking over Gotham, No Man's Land scenario, Bruce returning to Gotham from the Pit, 8 year retirement gap, etc.), I would have done one of the following two things with the Joker.

1) With Gotham at peace for 8 years, Joker is thought to have been reformed and is brought on TV much like in Returns. This is happening at around the same time as when Batman debuts in Gotham again. He does not believe Batman killed Harvey and knows that Harvey was behind those deaths because he knows Batman and knows that Batman would never intentionally kill, maybe even flashing back to his final confrontation with Batman in TDK. Basically, Joker breaks out from that point on, confronts Batman, they have their final showdown, etc. It is essentially the same scenario from Returns. Joker laughs at how Gotham thinks he is a murderer and then snaps his neck. I would also add in a "Good luck with what's about to come" type of line alluding to the quarantine.

2) Joker is freed from Arkham/Blackgate by Bane along with everyone else. Throughout Bane's five months of terror, Joker is keeping a low profile embracing the chaos that he dreamed of being brought to Gotham as if he was tanning on a sunny beach during a "vacation" or have him be "jealous" of Bane taking all the attention and wanting to go after him much like how he tried going after Holiday in TLH. Then when Batman gets back, his first priority after saving Gordon and Blake is to go after the Joker. They then have their same fight from Dark Knight Returns which ends with the Joker's death yet again. Before he dies, I would have him allude back to TDK again. "Remember when I said that these "civilized people" will eat each other once the lights are done and all hell breaks loose? You are witnessing become a reality before your eyes" or something among those lines. Prior to his final fight with Bane, Batman keeps that in mind and has thoughts about the Joker possibly being right about the nature of the Gothamites. Then during his fight with Bane, he is not only fighting to save Gotham but also wants to prove to himself that the Joker was not right, even if that may seem more true on the surface now than it did on TDK.

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Old 08-05-2013, 10:25 AM   #11
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I'm wondering if Batman R.I.P was on the table before Heath Ledger died. It makes sense because in that story even though he isn't the main character he plays a huge part in the climax and he serves as a Hannibal Lecter/ unstopable villain that has been doing this thing with Batman for ever. It's a story that gives closure, it is epic, it has a large scheme that goes deeper than the villain of the week formula.

Thoughts ?

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:11 AM   #12
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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I'm wondering if Batman R.I.P was on the table before Heath Ledger died. It makes sense because in that story even though he isn't the main character he plays a huge part in the climax and he serves as a Hannibal Lecter/ unstopable villain that has been doing this thing with Batman for ever. It's a story that gives closure, it is epic, it has a large scheme that goes deeper than the villain of the week formula.

Thoughts ?
R.I.P. came out at around the same time as TDK.

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:52 AM   #13
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

My bad then.

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Old 08-05-2013, 11:44 PM   #14
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

Skrilla, that'd be a good direction for a reboot franchise that pulls in the heavier science fiction and fantasy elements of the comics.

Both of those ideas sound great, Shikamaru. I imagined turning the second act into Arkham Asylum. Bane throws Bruce in a newly built Arkham Asylum (built for the string of psychopaths that started cropping up as the Dent Act was being enforced over the 8 year period). A mirror to the madmen Bane was incarcerated with in the Pit. Afterward all access to the island with Arkham are blown during Bane's takeover.

Bane has some of his best posted around Arkham to ensure none of the extreme freaks escape. So Act II is Bruce being healed, and then having to survive, in Arkham where Joker and Scarecrow are running around doing their thing. I would try to work in one of your confrontations, Shikaru, between Bruce and the Joker. Selina's arc would see her going into Arkham to try to rescue Bruce.

Act III would proceed as in the film, only with Bane playing the role of judge. Some flashbacks to Bane's past would be very apt in this scene.

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But he did kind of do that, didn't he? We did get "the rogue of the week" after Begins.


- After the success of the Joker in Dark Knight, of course they have another IMAX "villain introduction prologue" that showcases another big bad. Batman Begins never did this. TDKR is considered "Bruce Wayne's story" right? Well, the villain introduction in TDKR, as cool as it is, really serves no purpose to the story accept, LOOK AT THIS COOL STUNT AND THIS BAD ASS NEW VILLAIN. They even touch on Pavel missing and the bomb later on in the film several times. Imagine what they could have done with that 6 minutes instead, Bruce and Gordon certainly come to mind.

- Bruce underestimating a villain, yet again

- Alfred preaching to Bruce about the villain while/after Bruce is analyzing his next move in his headquarters

- Diabolical plot involving the city

- Batman overcoming obstacles and beating the villain with his gauntlets and a quip directed at the villain again
Bane and Talia both show Bruce what he could've become if he obsessed over his parents' death and hung onto his persona after the Dent Act made Batman extraneous. Diabolical plot involving the city is the standard for these kind of films. The social revolution Bane headed up was a new spin that hasn't been done in comic films before. Both items on your last point are there, but the quip had more weight to it than "I know how you got these." Joker's mayhem was very targeted: break Dent, turn Gotham against the Batman, Dent and Gordon. Bane's was widespread and had more collateral damage to the civilians.

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Old 08-06-2013, 08:10 AM   #15
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

Great question. I wouldn't have made the Joker the main star of the film but I definitely would have had him popping up throughout. I would have liked to have seen him revel in the chaos that his "ace in the hole" would have caused when the public learned of Dent's actions. After that, I would have imagined how, somehow, Gordon and Batman would have set things right and proved the Joker wrong. I don't think I would have wanted the series to continue past 3 movies, no matter how great the last installment would have been had things been different.

As for the other villain in the movie? I would never have picked Bane, but, I will say that I enjoyed Hardy's performance and I think he would have still have worked minus the LOS. I would have preferred that he would have been more like a revolutionary, perhaps in anger to all the civilians that were falsely locked up over the Dent act or something along the lines of the Mutant leader in TDKR. I have to admit though, I love Nolan's takes on all the Bat rogues, and would have loved to have seen how he would have envisioned the Riddler.


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Old 08-06-2013, 11:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I think Joker would have only been the Hannibal lecter type. Only in a couple of scenes.

This makes me think that maybe the pit/prison wouldn't have happened. The same concept, but perhaps in Arkham instead. Bane's men take him to the bottom of the Asylum where he's locked in with Joker, etc.

Then again, I think there's more significance to the prison and its shape, with Bruce climbing it with/without the rope because it brings the imagery back to the well in Begins. So maybe I wouldn't do the Arkham bit after all.

I think I would just use Joker in a cameo scene. Like TDKR novelization says, Bane also releases Arkham's crazies but Joker is the only left inside. It could be a really creepy scene. Showing Joker looking way more messed up than ever before. But not escaping.

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Old 08-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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I think I would have really gotten a kick out of "rogue of the week" approach, with each of the villains still retaining their roles in the future films. Riddler could have been the main antagonist but like I said you could still write Joker into the story in a smaller capacity. Perhaps the film could have cut back and forth between the main story and Joker's trial or something like that.

Like Joker says in TDK,

"There's no going back. You've changed things... forever. "

Batman's arrival triggered the rise of the first great super criminal, Joker. What this does is establish the new status quo in Gotham from here on out. I think it makes sense that a lunatic like Nigma finally saw an opening to reveal himself to the world. He's been inspired.

Ridder isn't like Joker though in that he's not a homicidal maniac. So his movie would have much a different feel - and a different type of threat - than the one in TDK. No mass murders, no random killings... Riddler's crimes would work on a whole different level. Sort of like the "stock market caper" we saw in TDKR. And that's where you could write in Penguin too. You could have Cobblepot linked to Riddler's operation, or he could just be depicted as a crooked white collar criminal who's a natural foe to Bruce Wayne. But what you do is you keep these characters around for the duration of the entire series. So Joker can still play a vital role later down the line if you need him to.
I do agree that if Ledger lived we may have seen more, if in nothing but cameos, "freaks" on the rise in Gotham City in the third film. If only because TDK hints at that and it is in line with its main source material, The Long Halloween.

However, these characters would have been secondary and reactionary to Batman and Joker themselves, as I feel Catwoman is kind of a hint of that in TDKr...a theatrical cat burglar inspired by growing up in the era of the Batman and Joker running amok.

But Nolan wants not just "bigger" but to do something different thematically. I am fairly certain the "No Man's Land" scenario would have been achieved somehow no matter what for a third Batman movie, just because it is "going there," when no Batman movie has done so before.

The Riddler is similar to the Joker, especially Nolan/Ledger's, because he meticulously plans "games," which is not unlike the Joker. Change them from "social experiments" about what he'll do to the people of Gotham to riddles and it is the same rough idea. Riddles are often considered themselves to be a form of jokes.

I am not saying you cannot do a villain of the week style plotting. That is what Raimi did with his Spider-Man films, what the Iron Man movies did and even the original "Bat-Athology."

Nolan however wanted each film to bring something new to the table besides a costume and actor. And that is why it went in the direction that it did.

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Old 08-06-2013, 02:08 PM   #18
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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But he did kind of do that, didn't he? We did get "the rogue of the week" after Begins.


- After the success of the Joker in Dark Knight, of course they have another IMAX "villain introduction prologue" that showcases another big bad. Batman Begins never did this. TDKR is considered "Bruce Wayne's story" right? Well, the villain introduction in TDKR, as cool as it is, really serves no purpose to the story accept, LOOK AT THIS COOL STUNT AND THIS BAD ASS NEW VILLAIN. They even touch on Pavel missing and the bomb later on in the film several times. Imagine what they could have done with that 6 minutes instead, Bruce and Gordon certainly come to mind.

- Bruce underestimating a villain, yet again

- Alfred preaching to Bruce about the villain while/after Bruce is analyzing his next move in his headquarters

- Diabolical plot involving the city

- Batman overcoming obstacles and beating the villain with his gauntlets and a quip directed at the villain again
If you're saying both rely on having villains and each Dark Knight sequel was determined to introduce a menacing and memorable villain, then I'll agree.

But neither villain (or the supporting ones like Two-Face and Catwoman) were about solely introducing a new costume, mask, generic threat to fill in this installment's adventure like, say, Doc Ock or Electro Whiplash or the Mandarin, etc. etc.

Each brought a new element to the "game" or narrative that arcs over all three films in Gotham at large and Bruce on the singular.

The Joker is the natural reaction to Batman. A cosmic counter to Batman's elemental insistence on order. He represents a the negative consequences of having a character like Batman and raises the stakes beyond just the city's sense of corruption. He turns it into a "battle for Gotham's soul" and holds a harsh mirror up to Bruce WAyne. Consider this personified in Harvey Dent, a good man inspired by the Batman to do the right thing on a massive level. After the Joker burns him and kills Rachel, both give Harvey the tools he'd use to become Two-Face: his coin and a gun.

With Bane, he represents something Batman has never seen before on a physical level, at least not since his early training scenes with Ra's Al Ghul in Begins. Beyond that, he is the third wave of societal collapse. If Ra's Al Ghul was a masked man in the mountains with a feverish, religious devotion to destroying an American city with his secret cult, and Joker was the lone anarchic wacko with a gun who randomly inflicts violence and terror on the world, Bane is the militaristic arm of social collapse. A false populist who uses weaponry to actually raise the stakes on Gotham and bring it to collapse. Joker and Ra's Al Ghul threatened this. Bane delivered on it.

None of them are "I'm the bad guy for the week, fight me between scenes of you dealing with your personal struggle, girlfriend or whatevs."

With that said, I think Spider-Man 2 is fantastic and better even than BB. And I enjoyed Iron Man 3, as flawed as it was. But that is not the direction of this franchise.

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Old 08-06-2013, 03:18 PM   #19
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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The Riddler is similar to the Joker, especially Nolan/Ledger's, because he meticulously plans "games," which is not unlike the Joker. Change them from "social experiments" about what he'll do to the people of Gotham to riddles and it is the same rough idea. Riddles are often considered themselves to be a form of jokes.
I could definitely see why a portion of the casual audience might view Riddler as a sort of poor man's Joker.

So what if you took my idea and just reversed the roles? Make Penguin the Gotham-wide threat with his economical warfare and have Riddler serve as a 2nd antagonist who just targets Batman. That might have worked a little better. In fact you could even have a scene in the beginning where Batman just sort of writes him off as a Joker copycat until he proves to be a different beast entirely.


edit: Come on how great would it have been to see Heath's Joker interact with the other rogues? Seeing Joker, Penguin, and Riddler... or some combination of those guys together in a room trying to devise a plan to take down Batman would have been so amazing to me. I mean it doesn't get any more "Batman" than that.

I know Nolan's intent was always a trilogy but it just feels like the series could have been so much more. In the first movie you have the beginning of the Batman, then in the next movie you see his first encounter with Joker... and then for the third movie you just skip all the way to the end of Batman's career and tell an endgame story? What about all the stuff in between? I wanna see what Joker meant when he said there was no going back. I wanna see how the events of The Dark Knight CHANGED Gotham.

I know within the world the trilogy created for itself there's nothing wrong with what they did. But as a Batman fan, I feel like they skipped too many chapters in the Batman legend in order to reach that endgame.


Last edited by Skrilla31; 08-06-2013 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:23 PM   #20
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I would like that idea if it were for one entry in a much longer series. As a climax, there's spectacle to a character like Bane that I don't get from Riddler or Penguin. To run with your idea, Skrilla, the Riddler could start off as one of Joker's lackeys that admires him. After Joker's busted or disappears, he runs off on his own and develops the Riddler persona. That would be for a new series of films, of course.

The only character other than Bane I would've wanted is Deathstroke.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:09 PM   #21
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I honestly have no idea how to answer this question.

I adore the tone and feel of TDKR and I don't necessarily feel Joker would have fit into it tonally. It's very much got that sweeping, epic Lawrence of Arabia vibe that fits a LoS story like a glove. Similarly to how I don't think The Joker would've fit into Batman Begins. TDK was carved out to be his shining moment. It's hard to justify a story reason for him to return when we already had the ultimate Joker movie that said pretty much everything that needed to be said about The Joker.

But of course, like any fan I would've loved to have seen more of Heath in the role, so it's a conundrum.

The only real idea I have that could co-exist with the current TDKR story that I love is to maybe start the movie with The Joker's execution coinciding with the Harvey Dent Day celebration. It could be a similar thing where the city is sort of congratulating itself for cleaning itself up and executing The Joker would be a symbolic victory for Gotham. I think even though it'd be a short cameo, you could give The Joker some bone-chilling last words. Something about Gotham living a lie, and how Harvey Dent Day is the biggest joke of all and he'll regret not being around for the punchline. And then something about how Harvey's his masterpiece but sometimes an artist has to die before they're truly appreciated. Obviously this would raise some eyebrows and set up the eventual reveal from Bane.

So yeah, maybe that...then everything else plays out pretty much as is.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:16 PM   #22
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

^ The only problem with that is that they legally wouldn't be able to give the Joker the death penalty due to him being insane. Sure that this is a fictional universe but I felt that the politics of this universe were always for the most part very real (minus the Dent Act which I take issue with but to each his own). Plus if Gotham had really become Metropolis - crime free, peaceful, clean, etc. - I really don't see them publicly breaking the law like that.

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Old 08-06-2013, 04:24 PM   #23
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

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^ The only problem with that is that they legally wouldn't be able to give the Joker the death penalty due to him being insane. Sure that this is a fictional universe but I felt that the politics of this universe were always for the most part very real (minus the Dent Act which I take issue with but to each his own). Plus if Gotham had really become Metropolis - crime free, peaceful, clean, etc. - I really don't see them publicly breaking the law like that.
Yeah, my intention there was to play into the whole harshness and "police state" vibe of the Dent Act. I'd like to think The Joker would find some sick irony in the whole thing and have one big final laugh before he bit the dust (It would be amazing if he snapped his own neck in a nod to DKR before they could inject or electrocute him).

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Old 08-07-2013, 07:33 AM   #24
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

I personally find it frustrating that you can't get a straight answer from Nolan and company about the 3rd film. Not one interviewer has ever asked if there had been any plans to bring the Joker back and Nolan doesn't seem to offer up the information on his own. Some interviews say that they took it one film at a time, that nothing was layed out, that they gave everything in each film with no sequel bait. Other interviews I've read said that there were at least some groundwork that they had in mind for the trilogy. I believe it was Nolan's brother that said the final scene was something that they had discussed very early on. I believe Nolan and company, particularly Nolan loves to be evasive.

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Old 08-07-2013, 08:37 AM   #25
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Default Re: Where would you have taken the series if Ledger hadn't died?

It's quite possible that Nolan simply didn't know whether or not The Joker would factor into the third film.

I don't think leaving him alive was meant to be a cliffhanger, it's that way because it works best for the story. Joker was trying to get Batman to kill him and break his rule, Batman's 'victory' is in not killing him.

I truly don't think Nolan has an answer. Like he said, Heath created a performance you'd want to see 10 movies of. It's likely he would have put him in the sequel. But I doubt they had any specific plans laid out for him.

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