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Old 08-12-2013, 05:24 AM   #101
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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Originally Posted by Szetsilya View Post
I do worry if this movie will be successful especially with Snyder and Goyer writing it.
I do think there were flaws in MOS which prevented it from making 300+ easily, but it was still a successful movie. I have felt for a long time that all MOS had to beat was SR, not Avengers not IM2 or IM3.

MOS has already beaten IM2, but to beat the avengers and it's accompanying quasi-sequels the world's finest are required and that IMO is the main reason why we're seeing batman in this coming film.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:43 PM   #102
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The movie definitely did not flop financially but it was no hit with audiences. Harry Potter is a completely different situation so really can't be compared the same way. And the Harry Potter movies did way better overseas than MOS.
No, it did not flop financially. Given the huge weekly drops, that record breaking opening saved MOS.

WB is looking at these drops, the low multiplier, the reviews and crunching the numbers - and projecting what a sequel might do. They went from multiple MOS sequels planned just before the release to a sudden change in course to the team-up film. Which must have been sudden for Snyder to publicly criticize the studio over it.

The drops are indicative that, for whatever reason(s) MOS did not capture audiences imaginations. And probably did not reestablish Superman as a popular cultural figure - if it had WB would be doing a stand-alone MOSW sequel instead of a team-up film. Using Batman to maybe help the next one from having such steep drop-offs. Apparently the toys did not sell well as some have posted and as you may have noticed if you frequent toy shops. The exact same story as with SR. And younger folks are key to these franchises being successful.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:49 PM   #103
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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I actually found Begins to be the least entertaining of the trilogy.

Yes, they need to call someone, anyone good who can help.



I guarantee it will not outperform Avengers: Age of Ultron. It will open great based on sensation alone but after that the movie will need to depend on it's own quality to continue doing well. Plus this will be some new untested Batman, not Bale. If it was Bale, I still don't think it would outdo Avengers but it may come closer. And I trust Whedon way, way more than I trust Snyder and Goyer to tell a good story.
I have problems with the MOS team and especially the writing. I'm surprised WB is risking their new Batman franchise which I think this next film is primarily meant to launch with this team.

I have little confidence in any of them, sadly including Cavill, after having seen MOS.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:00 PM   #104
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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This!!!!

"The director looking at "World's Finest" and "Public Enemies" ideas for inspiration."-The SuperMan homepage (great fan site)

I feel like he's the most in tune with the fanbase, for good or bad. I'm sure years ago right after SR came out, fans were clamoring for a comic-bookish action-based Superman film. And on that front, he delivered.

However, he came off of a very strong franchise that raised the bar for CBM's in some ways. Combine that with scripting problems (not entirely his fault) and rapid editing (he should REALLY get a better, less frenetic editor) and MOS reception has been divisive.

I feel like he can earn his reputation back by doing Batman justice, and furthering Clark's story.

But he'll need a writer that is better with dialog, character dynamics, and a general narrative to do so.
Excellent points. I agree and have so written WB. Dialog, writing, pacing, characterization.

MOS2 as a stand alone would have had that negative "divisive" buzz going into it. Hurting the BO much as an SR2 would have had negative buzz given SR. I think WB's fear was/is that MOS2 will underperform MOS.

Batman's inclusion overcomes somewhat that negative impression.

Unfortunately I'm not sure WB is concerned in furthering Clark's story. I can see them opting to use Superman only as a supporting character in team films going forward.

Batman aside, this film is rushed - given no script or anticipation of it until the announcement. Its not just AV2 - Star Wars comes out in summer 2015. WB needs to consider Christmas 2015 or pushing it off until 2016. If this film is weak as MOS was they may kill off their whole DC franchise film-wise for years to come. Now is not the time to rush things.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:56 PM   #105
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If it flops hopefully the would bring back either Keaton or Bale in a few years to play a veteran Batman who directs and guides a young apprenctice.

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Old 08-12-2013, 04:05 PM   #106
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It has Batman and Superman in the same live action movie for the first time ever. Even if it is Uwe Boll levels of bad, it will still make a mint at the box office.
This. Just a poster of Superman and Batman together facing off would be enough to get people excited.

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Old 08-12-2013, 04:47 PM   #107
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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I have problems with the MOS team and especially the writing
We know. You even poured your heart and soul out in a letter and claimed you were happy with WB's reply back to you, only for them to return your dreaded creative team. That's tough luck.

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I'm surprised WB is risking their new Batman franchise which I think this next film is primarily meant to launch with this team.
Like I said earlier, you're surprised because you're so downright insisting on claiming everything about MOS a failure, but WB's recent actions are suggesting otherwise. I know it's tough for you to handle, but keep bending that reality.

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I have little confidence in any of them, sadly including Cavill, after having seen MOS.
Please, you weren't going to like Cavill anyhow. Your agenda reeks way back when. They were going to have to dig up Chris Reeve and his red underoos for fans like you to enjoy anything.

In all the negativity that did happen to surround MOS, Cavill was the CONSTANT bright spot in more than the majority of the filmgoers. HC is about as perfect as you would get to casting a new era of cinematic Superman.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:05 PM   #108
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I love all this optimism.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #109
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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In all the negativity that did happen to surround MOS, Cavill was the CONSTANT bright spot in more than the majority of the filmgoers. HC is about as perfect as you would get to casting a new era of cinematic Superman.
All the negativity? If you admit that do you think changes are in order. At least at the writing and film editing levels?

I liked the new suit BTW and in the lead-up felt Cavill was a great choice. I am not saying replace Cavill. Ain't gonna happen and especially if he will not be used in any more stand alone Superman films, but only in team-up films.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:27 PM   #110
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Default Re: What if it flops?

Where are you getting that Superman wont have anymore stand alone films?....did I miss something?....

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:32 PM   #111
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Where are you getting that Superman wont have anymore stand alone films?....did I miss something?....
Well, its unheard of for a comic book film's first sequel to feature another more popular comic book character. This will be a team up film and judging from the net the buzz will be largely about Batman in the eyes of moviegoers.

After that? JL and using Cavill in that film as Supes. He's signed for 3 films and that would end it.

The Dread link says WB has scrapped plans for a Superman trilogy which it is sort of looking like. After the Batman vs Superman film and given WB wants to make money I think its a no-brainer they go with JL and not what I guess would be MOS2.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:40 PM   #112
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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All the negativity? If you admit that do you think changes are in order. At least at the writing and film editing levels?
Man of Steel isn't a perfect film. Far, far from it, but what it lacks holes, makes up for how unique it truly was. Negativity? Yes, but on the other hand, it's not even CLOSE to being as bad as you make it out to be. Not even close. In fact, it wasn't even bad whatsoever.

As for changes, I'm sure there's going to HAVE to be changes, especially bringing in new characters with different philosophies to the mix and with different characters and philosophies, comes a different approach. Listen, Zack Snyder will be Zack Snyder, no question. He was hired for a reason and his duty will be served with purpose in how he will visually set up a Superman/Batman/ Lex Luthor story.

Even if MOS was everything you hoped and dreamed for, slight changes were always going to be made regardless. It's called continuation of the story while adding new elements.

MOS was a great start to building what needs to be built.

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Ain't gonna happen and especially if he will not be used in any more stand alone Superman films, but only in team-up films.
Now you're just jumping ahead to create other arguments with this "Cavill will only star in team-up movies" nonsense. Superman is 1/2 of the bread and butter of WB's successful superhero film franchise so ruling out another solo Supes film (when Thor and CA are getting theirs after their teammups) is downright silly in all that is logic. We shall see.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:49 PM   #113
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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Man of Steel isn't a perfect film. Far, far from it, but what it lacks holes, makes up for how unique it truly was. Negativity? Yes, but on the other hand, it's not even CLOSE to being as bad as you make it out to be. Not even close. In fact, it wasn't even bad whatsoever.

As for changes, I'm sure there's going to HAVE to be changes, especially bringing in new characters with different philosophies to the mix and with different characters and philosophies, comes a different approach. Listen, Zack Snyder will be Zack Snyder, no question. He was hired for a reason and his duty will be served with purpose in how he will visually set up a Superman/Batman/ Lex Luthor story.

Even if MOS was everything you hoped and dreamed for, slight changes were always going to be made regardless. It's called continuation of the story while adding new elements.

MOS was a great start to building what needs to be built.



Now you're just jumping ahead to create other arguments with this "Cavill will only star in team-up movies" nonsense. Superman is 1/2 of the bread and butter of WB's successful superhero film franchise so ruling out another solo Supes film (when Thor and CA are getting theirs after their teammups) is downright silly in all that is logic. We shall see.
I think two changes have to be made at a minimum. New editing team and at least a co-writer for Goyer. Someone good at dialogue. The potential for sharp witty dialogue is there with these characters but it needs to be executed.

I started writing Superman fic in March because of MOS. I was so hyped by the trailers and Cavill's look. I have all these great story ideas but getting them to come alive on paper is tough for me. I get the sense Goyer is more of an idea man too and needs help translating his ideas to a script.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:51 PM   #114
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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Well, its unheard of for a comic book film's first sequel to feature another more popular comic book character.
Now it's back to being a sequel. Dude, you ARE the human windshield wiper.

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This will be a team up film and judging from the net the buzz will be largely about Batman in the eyes of moviegoers.
Gullible much? Judging by the buzz from the net? And what do these "moviegoers" know about this movie that we don't? Wow dude, just. WOW. You DO know not everything you read on the internet is takin' at face value, right?

We have NOTHING on this film. NOTHING. Not even the title.

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After that? JL and using Cavill in that film as Supes. He's signed for 3 films and that would end it.
Yep, just like IM, IM2, Avengers and IM3 ended RDJR. OH WAIT....

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The Dread link says WB has scrapped plans for a Superman trilogy which it is sort of looking like.
Sort of looking like? Get out the windshield wipers!

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After the Batman vs Superman film and given WB wants to make money
WB wants to make money? I would have never known.

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I think its a no-brainer they go with JL and not what I guess would be MOS2.
Well, yeah. That's certainly the plan. WF is MOS2. Everything about MOS is returning, including its cast and team.

Superman/Batman (or whatever it is it'll be called) will lead into Justice League. Again, after that, there's always the chance and possibility Superman AND Bats still get their own continued franchise solo films, ala Thor and Cap.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:25 PM   #115
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Default Re: What if it flops?

RDJ starred in IM 3, a standalone films AFTER the Avengers. Both Chris's are getting standalone films post-Avengers. Saying that Cavill won't be in anymore solo Superman movies is premature.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:48 PM   #116
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I am sure it wont Flop it could go Fair but no flop
I am not even sure why anyone is wondering this. We do not know who will be Batman. We don't know what the plot will be. We don't even know what the title will be.

The film will break $700 million. It might do twice that much or even more, but it will for sure get $700 million at the very lowest.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:52 PM   #117
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The interest in MoS 2 is in the new Batman. Because of it, almost every day we have a rumor about it.

The Avengers 2 doesn't need this right now. The first film is a great success, there is great expectation for TA2.
Look what happened to iron Man 3. The film is the highest grossing of the year, the guy responsible for this, Downey Jr., will be at TA2. And yet we have Thor 2 and Captain America 2. If these two films become a hit...
Why should I want to see Avengers 2? I saw them all together on Avengers. That was enough. Unless there is some new exciting element, no need to pay to see another film of them.

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Old 08-12-2013, 09:57 PM   #118
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I don't even really think SUPERMAN RETURNS was a flop. I meant if the sequel to MAN OF STEEL flops. It's been described as "another Superman film" by Snyder. I guess I should have said "a Superman sequel".
SR was the wrong way to go about starting up the franchise for a few more films. It was more the closing of a trilogy with STM and SM2, than the start of something new. I am not sure Singer ever admitted this, but if we look at it that way, than it mainly makes sense.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:12 PM   #119
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Getting mixed reviews, with more being positive than negative, does not mean MOS flopped with critics, some people don't seem to know what "flopped" means. Jonah Hex, GL, Transformers 2 all flopped, MOS did not.
Transformers 2 got a 20% rating on Rotten Tomatos, MOS got 56%. They are clearly not in the same league. Jonah Hex got 12%, and its production cost were more than four times what it took in at the box office. Yes, maybe the Avengers gets a higher critical reception than MOS, but MOS is clearly not totally rejected by critics.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:22 PM   #120
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No, it did not flop financially. Given the huge weekly drops, that record breaking opening saved MOS.

WB is looking at these drops, the low multiplier, the reviews and crunching the numbers - and projecting what a sequel might do. They went from multiple MOS sequels planned just before the release to a sudden change in course to the team-up film. Which must have been sudden for Snyder to publicly criticize the studio over it.

The drops are indicative that, for whatever reason(s) MOS did not capture audiences imaginations. And probably did not reestablish Superman as a popular cultural figure - if it had WB would be doing a stand-alone MOSW sequel instead of a team-up film. Using Batman to maybe help the next one from having such steep drop-offs. Apparently the toys did not sell well as some have posted and as you may have noticed if you frequent toy shops. The exact same story as with SR. And younger folks are key to these franchises being successful.
Your constant talk of "a sudden change in course" has absolutely no evidence. It seems they are doing exactly what they planned to do all along. Maybe not what some fans wanted, but it seems to be what was planned.

The evidence suggests they were planning to bring in Batman before MOS opened.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:28 PM   #121
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Default Re: What if it flops?

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Your constant talk of "a sudden change in course" has absolutely no evidence. It seems they are doing exactly what they planned to do all along. Maybe not what some fans wanted, but it seems to be what was planned.

The evidence suggests they were planning to bring in Batman before MOS opened.
Then why Snyder's reaction? Too many FANS seem to be in denial.

You "protest too much" as they say. But you are not alone in that.


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Old 08-12-2013, 10:50 PM   #122
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Default Re: What if it flops?

Oh good lord Tobias is back! I cant putup with this crap for another 2 years.

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:23 AM   #123
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All this talk about a planned sequel being scrapped in favor of a WF movie or even the fact that WB was planning an MOS trilogy is just pure speculation IMO.
Throughout MOS's production WB/snyder/goyer et al made it very clear that they were waiting on MOS's performance before they announce their plans for the DC universe. The fact that they're planning for flash, JL and WF tells me that MOS has done it's job as an acting springboard for the wider DC universe.

The fact that WB has hired the same MOS team to make the WF tells me that they're happy with MOS performance and critical response (how happy? I suspect we'll never really now) but to be honest, releasing a solo superman film in 2015 would be suicide (even more so if they intended to release a batman reboot that is destined to get crucified by the general public for it not having the word "nolan" attached to it) so WB have done the smart play here and decided to pair up their 2 biggest superheroes to take on disney.

What I don't understand is why some here are treating WF as some avengers rip off film where superman will be playing a bit role as part of an ensamble piece. A WF movie is about superman and batman, batman and superman, these 2 will be the focus, so while it's not a solo superman film (we've had 6 of those already) it's still a superman movie through and through.
Now I totally understand the disappointment of some because superman isn't getting another solo film, I am too, but I was honestly very worried about an MOS sequel getting another awful release date from WB in a year like 2015, where disney is set to steam role everyone else, but with WF both these icons are gonna have a fighting chance.
Like many of you I am worried about the snyder/goyer duo as they have a sketchy track record but it's abit too soon to be panicking about batman outshining superman or snyder going all DKR on superman before we get some more concrete news.

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:30 AM   #124
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Default Re: What if it flops?

I don't think it would flop but I don't think it will be a better film than Man of Steel.

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:37 AM   #125
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Now I totally understand the disappointment of some because superman isn't getting another solo film, I am too,
That's a pretty big deal and disappointment. Superman used to help launch a new set of solo Bat flicks while Supes isn't getting another solo.

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