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Old 08-12-2013, 11:49 AM   #51
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

It does make you wonder how far they are into production with this film. Are costume designers working on the new suit right now? We're nearing the end of 2013. They have to start filming early 2014. There must be so much going on their right now. Goyer and Snyder must be really under the pressure to finalize the script. Can you just imagine.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:27 PM   #52
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Almost every fight batman got into in the TDK trilogy isn't what I'd call in batman character. One of the things the man's approach is known for is efficiency.

Those long ugly drunken brawls need to go. There were a few "in character" bright spots here and there but bring on the krav maga please. There's a reason it's so popular in the armed forces.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:29 PM   #53
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He couldn't do fancy martial arts moves in that suit, why is that so hard for people to comprehend? The way he took out those goons at the docks in BB and that SWAT team in TDK is the model of efficiency.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:34 PM   #54
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Almost every fight batman got into in the TDK trilogy isn't what I'd call in batman character. One of the things the man's approach is known for is efficiency.
How was his fighting inefficient? Most of the guys he fought went down after one hit. He fought very efficiently, he neutralized each threat as quickly as possible and didn't **** around at all.

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Those long ugly drunken brawls need to go.
So, is it a matter of fitting the character or is it a matter of aesthetics?

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There were a few "in character" bright spots here and there but bring on the krav maga please. There's a reason it's so popular in the armed forces.
Krav Maga would also get it an R rating.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:41 PM   #55
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So, basically some people are complaining that the fights aren't efficient enough, but are saying that they should be cooler and more elaborate, which is the OPPOSITE of efficient.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:44 PM   #56
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How was his fighting inefficient? Most of the guys he fought went down after one hit. He fought very efficiently, he neutralized each threat as quickly as possible and didn't **** around at all.
Some went down with one his, some went down with no hits some when down with plenty, that's a directorial thing and a confusing one at that(if only the joker would received such pivotal blows). My comment on efficiency in this particular case refers to how much damage he takes.

However I'm at a loss on the matter, the direction didn't do a well enough job of consistently conveying how things were going down for me.

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So, is it a matter of fitting the character or is it a matter of aesthetics?
That comment was a personal aesthetic observation, not much more.


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Krav Maga would also get it an R rating.
It didn't in MOS.
It also got a PG13 in the Bourne movies.
The nikita tv show isn't all that gruesome.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #57
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Some went down with one his, some went down with no hits some when down with plenty, that's a directorial thing and a confusing one at that(if only the joker would received such pivotal blows).
I haven't watched DKR all the way through in a while, but to my remembering Batman and The Joker only faced each other in a fight twice, the first time there were goons between Batman and The Joker and the second time there were guard dogs.

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My comment on efficiency in this particular case refers to how much damage he takes.
Part of that comes down to the fact that he's wearing body armor. If you're wearing a bullet proof vest, you can afford to take a gut shot if it gives you an opening to hit somebody in the face.


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It didn't in MOS.
It also got a PG13 in the Bourne movies.
The nikita tv show isn't all that gruesome.
I don't really see how the fighting in man of Steel or the Nikita show is better than the fighting in the Nolan movies.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:53 PM   #58
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So, basically some people are complaining that the fights aren't efficient enough, but are saying that they should be cooler and more elaborate, which is the OPPOSITE of efficient.
I don't know what people are saying, I however am arguing against it's efficiency in the grand scheme of things. I mean do you really think a navy seal would use keysi in a knife fight?

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He couldn't do fancy martial arts moves in that suit, why is that so hard for people to comprehend? The way he took out those goons at the docks in BB and that SWAT team in TDK is the model of efficiency.
Those two scene were very much successful, however the same can't be said for the rest of the story, moreover he kinda had super powered tech and a coach in the latter(of course he did, this is the nolan verse).

To answer your question, It doesn't need to be fancy. No one's asking for him to run on ways and do butterfly kicks. This puffy suit excuse does the film no favors imo. But if you must, there are plenty of armored characters that seem to have far less trouble moving.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:57 PM   #59
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How was his fighting inefficient? Most of the guys he fought went down after one hit. He fought very efficiently, he neutralized each threat as quickly as possible and didn't **** around at all.

So, is it a matter of fitting the character or is it a matter of aesthetics?
I think the fight scenes were were downright poorly filmed. The editing was too choppy, the camera angles were from behind the actors much of the time, and the fights just weren't choreographed that well. I've seen fan movies that filmed their fight scenes better. And if the suit was too restrictive to be able to film Batman-style fighting, then they should've gone with a different suit design.

As much as I love almost every other element of the Nolan Batman movies, the action (which is a vital part of Batman) was just terrible.

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Old 08-12-2013, 01:57 PM   #60
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I mean do you really think a navy seal would use keysi in a knife fight?
I don't know what that means.

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moreover he kinda had super powered tech and a coach in the latter(of course he did, this is the nolan verse).
So? Using available resources to give yourself an edge does make you a worse fighter, it makes you a smarter fighter.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:00 PM   #61
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I think the fight scenes were were downright poorly filmed. The editing was too choppy, the camera angles were from behind the actors much of the time. I've seen fan films that filmed their fight scenes better. And if the suit was too restrictive to be able to film Batman-style fighting, then they should've gone with a different suit design.
Well, first of all, I wasn't talking about the suit or it's restrictiveness.

Second, what exactly is bad about the choppy editing and the camera angles? I mean, what does that remove from the scenes that those scenes need to be good?

I guess my question is, what makes a fight scene good and what makes a fight scene bad? What were the fight scenes in the Nolan movies missing?

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As much as I love almost every other element of the Nolan Batman movies, the action (which is a vital part of Batman) was just terrible.
Is it? I'm not so sure about that. I think of them as mostly a means to an end.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:11 PM   #62
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Well, first of all, I wasn't talking about the suit or it's restrictiveness.

Second, what exactly is bad about the choppy editing and the camera angles? I mean, what does that remove from the scenes that those scenes need to be good?

I guess my question is, what makes a fight scene good and what makes a fight scene bad? What were the fight scenes in the Nolan movies missing?
I haven't seen the last film, so I don't know if the fight scenes were good, bad, terrible, or badass.

But from the previous films, I thought the action was good. I was pretty sure the action was fairly realistic (as realistic as Hollywood and comic book films can get, at least), and well-done.

I guess this means I'll just have to rewatch the movies. My life is so hard...

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:23 PM   #63
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Part of that comes down to the fact that he's wearing body armor. If you're wearing a bullet proof vest, you can afford to take a gut shot if it gives you an opening to hit somebody in the face.
I think that's backwards logic to be honest, however I think stylistically it makes for a sloppy less in control fighter on screen. Even Catwoman looked to be more efficient/effective than he did, imo.

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I don't really see how the fighting in man of Steel or the Nikita show is better than the fighting in the Nolan movies.
Statement was made in relation to the idea that Krav Maga being geared to rated R movies. If you want to discuss which of the fight scene were better that's something else entirely. I for one actually found much of the mos choreo superior on film in MOS. Nikita as well(though that mixed Krav and BJJ).

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I don't know what that means.
Seals are creatures of efficiency and disarming of the enemy on maybe the highest level. They often fight people with knives in close combat.
This seems like something that should be applied to a realistic approach on the batman material.
I said that in response to this idea that krav is some sort of appeal for fancy elaborate fighting and how that contradicts the same appeal for efficiency.

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So? Using available resources to give yourself an edge does make you a worse fighter, it makes you a smarter fighter.
Again, you missed the point of the statement in relation to what it was responding to. Never said it made him less of a fighter, or even dumb. I said his prowess in that particular sequence seemingly came by way of plot device and not the fighting style of the trilogy. It could be argued that he came off as effective as he did because he was being coached and had x ray vision, not because of nolan's fighting style...etc.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:33 PM   #64
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Interesting. You'd think Executive Producers would have the most power. But considering Snyder went against Nolan saying no to Superman killing Zod, I don't think he really has much say at all.
Based on the way they tell the story, it sounds like Snyder and Goyer first said Superman kills Zod and Nolan didn't like it. Then they went on to explain why they wanted him to kill and then they convinced him.

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:36 PM   #65
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http://www.cinematallica.com/holy-in...to-the-ground/

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:40 PM   #66
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I think that's backwards logic to be honest,
How is it backwards logic? Because he wears body armor, he doesn't have to worry about getting hit as much as he would if he weren't wearing it, so he can afford to take shots he otherwise wouldn't be able to.

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however I think stylistically it makes for a sloppy less in control fighter on screen. Even Catwoman looked to be more efficient/effective than he did, imo.
So it's not a matter of his actual effectiveness, it's a matter of style.

Because, taking advantage of body armor to take hits you wouldn't normally be able to afford to take to give you an opening to hit the other guy isn't actually sloppy or lacking control. It's actually extremely efficient.

Also, to be honest, I don't remember Batman getting hit that much in the films anyway. Again, I haven't watched them all the way through in a while, but to my recollection, in most of his fight scenes, he hit the people he was fighting and and it was hard and fast enough and in the right spot that they went down in one hit and it was usually before they had a chance to hit him. That's very efficient fighting.

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Seals are creatures of efficiency and disarming of the enemy on maybe the highest level. They often fight people with knives in close combat.
This seems like something that should be applied to a realistic approach on the batman material.
I said that in response to this idea that krav is some sort of appeal for fancy elaborate fighting and how that contradicts the same appeal for efficiency.
In what way is krav maga more efficient than what we saw in the movies? I've never seen it in practice.


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Again, you missed the point of the statement in relation to what it was responding to. Never said it made him less of a fighter, or even dumb. I said his prowess in that particular sequence seemingly came by way of plot device and not the fighting style of the trilogy. It could be argued that he came off as effective as he did because he was being coached and had x ray vision, not because of nolan's fighting style...etc.
I didn't miss the point. It's just that I don't see a distinction between using the radar thing with Fox in his ear and his fighting style. He was effective because of is fighting style, because his fighting style is "use the resources you have at your disposal in order to win."

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Old 08-12-2013, 02:52 PM   #67
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Awesome.

Pretty much sounds exactly like I imagined this whole situation to be, but I really thought the Bloom stuff was just a joke or something. Never heard of this site before.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:01 PM   #68
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I have never heard of that site either.
They had me until they got to the part about Bloom.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:02 PM   #69
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I feel WB is feeling the heat of getting Batman right and might back out of including him in the next movie.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:03 PM   #70
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Jesus. If even half of that's true...

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:09 PM   #71
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Is cinematallica a proven source? I've never read that site before so I'm just curious. I mean, it basically just sounds like everyone's worst case scenario hypothetical talk on here. The bit about Bale being offered 50 million raises an eyebrow for me since it's in line with what that shady book said, and that's not even exactly what the book said.

I mean, while a lot of that isn't totally implausible, let's be honest...any one of us here could have written that article.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:19 PM   #72
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I dunno how accurate this cinematic site has been but he sure paints a compelling and believable picture.

The sudden dropping of a Superman trilogy in favor of basically a WF and then a JL. Snyder clearly was floored by this so much so as to go public.

The focus on TV instead of films - Lord I hope he is wrong the TV stars will be brought on for JL. That will "cheapen" the film.

WB is clearly making spur of the moment changes. Not good. Releasing this rushed film opposite Star Wars and AV2 is crazy.

Makes me wish the heirs had won the rights to Supes who would be on his way to Marvel/Disney now if they had.

His description of this film as not a sequel is spot on as much as Superman fans are in denial over it. If Batman is 50% of the film Superman will too be just half the film. No chance for real development of Clark Kent or Lois Lane or others. This is a disaster for the Superman franchise IMO and possible a disaster for DC films in general.


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Old 08-12-2013, 03:26 PM   #73
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

Not be a skeptic but would rather receive news of this sort from sites I've actually heard of before.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:50 PM   #74
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It's sad how plausible most of this is. Or all of it.

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Old 08-12-2013, 03:53 PM   #75
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I dunno how accurate this cinematic site has been but he sure paints a compelling and believable picture.

The sudden dropping of a Superman trilogy in favor of basically a WF and then a JL. Snyder clearly was floored by this so much so as to go public.

The focus on TV instead of films - Lord I hope he is wrong the TV stars will be brought on for JL. That will "cheapen" the film.

WB is clearly making spur of the moment changes. Not good. Releasing this rushed film opposite Star Wars and AV2 is crazy.

Makes me wish the heirs had won the rights to Supes who would be on his way to Marvel/Disney now if they had.

His description of this film as not a sequel is spot on as much as Superman fans are in denial over it. If Batman is 50% of the film Superman will too be just half the film. No chance for real development of Clark Kent or Lois Lane or others. This is a disaster for the Superman franchise IMO and possible a disaster for DC films in general.
1. Reliable source for the bolded please.
2. You need to realize something. Superman and Batman are major brands. No matter how pathetic this film is going to be, its going to make money.

Am actually glad that there is a sizable pessimism with regard to this project. At least expectations will be low but then again this is snyder who is a master at hyping a movie. When we see the first footage or trailer for this movie, expectations will be through the roof.

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