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Old 08-12-2013, 04:29 PM   #76
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How is it backwards logic? Because he wears body armor, he doesn't have to worry about getting hit as much as he would if he weren't wearing it, so he can afford to take shots he otherwise wouldn't be able to.
I see what you are getting at. Having "bullet/knife proof gear"(though I'm not sure bats has that) means he's more prone to let himself get hit, but that doesn't mean he actually wants that. For starters, unless batman wants the enemy to run out of ammo, I've never seen him actively want shots fired. It's a matter of public safety and stealth at this point.

Sure Cap has a (truly bullet proof) shield and he uses it accordingly, but (nolan)batman's style isn't conducive to the level of of efficiency wanted by any fighter. Bruce Wayne takes off his shirt off and his body is tender in bruises and cuts, Afred is taken aback. In what world is this more efficient fighting? What you are describing is the way rocky fights. A bruiser that takes shots to further his gain. In rocky 3(though he forgot it part four), he was taught a more effective way to fight, it involved getting hit less.

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So it's not a matter of his actual effectiveness, it's a matter of style.

Because, taking advantage of body armor to take hits you wouldn't normally be able to afford to take to give you an opening to hit the other guy isn't actually sloppy or lacking control. It's actually extremely efficient.
It's a matter of both. However we are talking cinematic language here.
I get how someone not feeling pain due to being juiced up or invulnerable can convey a level of effectiveness but batman isn't doing that sort of thing, he's getting hit and it hurts. Blocking swords with your metal cufflinks is smart, blocking blows to the head with your armored cowel?

What I'm talking about is the level of skill and effectiveness faora showed over superman in her technique. I would think batman could at least convey that against thugs on a consistent basis. That sort of direction conveys control and efficiency, what they are doing in batman, however good their intentions just comes off as something else in design.

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In what way is krav maga more efficient than what we saw in the movies? I've never seen it in practice.
For starters, you get hit alot with keysi. Unless you are wolverine(who should be using the style), it's automatically less efficient. Krav(and similar styles such as silat) are simply more precise and technical.

My mistake, they use Kali in Bourne. My favorite part of these clip is how much Jeff harps on the fact that it's about speedy effective winning.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

To be honest, I'm not all against keysi, they used it in that jack reacher film and with better direction it actually seemed pretty effective and enjoyable.
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I didn't miss the point. It's just that I don't see a distinction between using the radar thing with Fox in his ear and his fighting style. He was effective because of is fighting style, because his fighting style is "use the resources you have at your disposal in order to win."
I'm not saying he's any less effective because of it. I'm saying it was entirely allowed by the fact that he employed that many resources at one time. I'm under the impression that batman can clean out a floor of thugs and cops and just operate at that level without being coached through a fight. Unfortunately, it took all that for me to finally see batman achieve a level of effective efficiency often seen in his other media(minus coaching).

I walk away from TDK series questioning just how much of batman is allowed due to the help and how much is simply bruce wayne. An often debated question, yet in this series I find the answer too far into the former for my liking. It's a matter of opinion. I come from a world where if you take all his resources a way he's still batman. One could argue that's what these films were about, that's what tossing him into a hole was about, I'd happen to disagree. Even in the whole he was a let down

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:21 PM   #77
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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The Keysi fight choreography was not bad. It was mostly realistic (when guys weren't waiting around to be beat up by Bats ) And it had a brutal, finality if you will. Those blows at least appeared to be damned hurtful!!
And therein lies the problem. People stood there waiting to be beat up or moved slowly, etc. Batman didn't appear to be moving fast most of the time. It's just subpar fight choreography, even if the discipline itself has an upside to it in the film.

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Old 08-12-2013, 05:31 PM   #78
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Usually the director keeps the people waiting their turn outside of the frame, often times this works in conjunction with the camera panning.

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Old 08-12-2013, 06:53 PM   #79
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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As an avid Ghostbuster fan who has been waiting for GB3 and following the rumors, I give zero credit to a lot said in that article. All it takes is one site to post a 'rumor' and another site to repost the information without fact checking and we're off to the races. I remember when someone put up a completely false article once about GB3 (it was an Onion-like site) and it was picked up and quoted everywhere.

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Old 08-12-2013, 08:25 PM   #80
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The article has some spot-on points so its hard to judge the overall accuracy.

Bottom line, WB does view Batman as their golden (billion) dollar boy. Which the character is - even for DC. Superman titles don't sell well and the (just) 2 Superman titles are outsold by like 56 or 6 of the Bats related titles.

If WB are dictating things then don't be surprised if the film turns out more Bat-centric than Supes-centric.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:42 PM   #81
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Dan Lemmon told us about the work of Weta Digital for MAN OF STEEL.

How did Weta Digital get involved on this show?
We had worked with DJ before on other projects and we had a lot of respect for Zach Snyder’s and Christopher Nolan’s work. We happened to be working on another big Warner Brothers project at the time, and the timing looked like it would work well to do both films. The filmmakers liked some of our previous work where we’d brought alien worlds to life, so they gave us the opportunity to do the same with Krypton.
How was the collaboration with director Zack Snyder and Production VFX Supervisor John “DJ” Desjardin?
Zach is a great director to work for. He is clear and decisive and very strong visually. We worked from a lot of the concept artwork that his art department, led by Alex McDowell, put together, and it was a great template to get started from. Many of the visual ideas had already been worked out and we just needed to put them in shots and make them look photoreal. Zach and DJ work very closely together and have a very efficient short hand communication. It allows you to move through a lot of shots – getting solid, consistent feedback the whole way through – and end up with shots that look great.
What have you done on this show?
Weta did all of the work on Krypton, nearly all of the work in outer space and orbiting earth, and most of the interiors of the Kryptonian ships.
Krypton is presented as a completely new style. How did you create this planet?
Alex’s artwork and reference research was very helpful to us. His team had done a number of illustrations and rough 3D models that gave us an overall look-and-feel template to follow and a broad-strokes lay of the land. They included references photos of strip mines and quarries to which we added our own references, and we pulled from those real-world images to help ground our fictitious world in reality. Part of the storyline is that the landscape of Krypton has been mined bare leaving great hulking plates of vertical waste rock running across the planet. In Krypton City those vertical plates have been hollowed out to create a massive grillwork of soaring rock arches under which most of the city resides. We went to great lengths to make sure that we had the right kind of rock to build those kinds of structures. I was specifically looking for large, hard, flat rock formations and ended up spending Easter weekend laser scanning basalt cliffs on the South Island of New Zealand with Keith Miller, another VFX Supervisor on the film.

The Genesis Chamber is a huge environment. Can you explain in details about its creation?
Again, we drew heavily from Alex’s artwork. We also pulled from photos of kelp forests and giant aquariums. We wanted the fluid in the Genesis Chamber to feel like it could support life, so we filled it full of particulate vaguely reminiscent of what you might find in amniotic fluid.
How did you manage this huge amount of pods?
We used a level of detail system to control the amount of data we had to deal with, and some of the closest pods were their own hi-res setup.
The Kryptonians are wearing armor. Can you tell us more about their design and creation?
Alex’s team designed the armor and worked with the costume fabricators to create the physical skin-tight “skin suits” that the Kryptonians all wore under their armor. They also built physical versions of the females’ armor. But because of the bulkiness of the mens’ armor and their need to have maximum mobility to fight and perform stunts, the filmmakers decided to do the mens’ armor all digitally. We used faux-cap – a low-footprint video-based pseudo motion capture process – to record the movements of Russell Crowe, Michael Shannon, and the other male Kryptonians, and then based on that data we created armor that stuck to their bodies.
How did you handle the lighting and rendering challenges for the armors?
We lit and rendered the armor using our traditional techniques. We gathered lighting reference from the scene and used that to inform how we lit the digital armor. Because the digital armor was bigger and bulkier than the faux-cap suits the actors were wearing, we had to create shadows from the armor back onto the shoulders and heads of the actors.

How did you create the sequence in which Zod and his warriors are imprisoned?
We used Houdini and a couple different fluid solvers to develop the process for growing the crystals and crawling the dark fluid over the Kryptonian Rebels. The encased Rebels are then floated up into the Black Zero, a massive prison ship, which lifts into orbit around Krypton. It is met in orbit by the Phantom Zone Generator, a satellite that opens a window into the Phantom Zone through which the Black Zero passes. The Phantom Zone Generator had a number of effects, mostly developed in Houdini, that defined the membrane that formed the window into the Phantom Zone and that also tied the Black Zero to the Phantom Zone Generator as it passed into the Phantom Zone.
The destruction of Krypton is impressive. How did you approach this sequence?
Big destruction sequences are always tricky because you want to make things look real and respect the scale of things and the laws of physics, but you also want to exercise a certain level of control and art direct things so that the shots tell the story they need to tell in a legible way. And you also need to make things look cool. So we do something similar to what people would do when they blow up miniatures. We plan where and when we want things to happen in a broad-strokes kind of way. Then we lay explosive forces inside our digital model and we weaken the areas where we want things to break so that when the forces go off, things break where we want them to. After that we run the simulation over and over again, tweaking different things to get the big movements just right, and then we run lots of sub-simulations on top of the big simulation to add detail and refine collisions and further break things apart.
When you see the whole planet blow up from space, that was it’s own separate simulation and set up. We wanted to play visually with the idea that the planet core became unstable and that the planet collapsed around it and then reached a critical point where it reignited and blew up.
There is a scene where Clark is discovering the history of Krypton. How did you create this beautiful sequence?
We created a visual display technology for all of Krypton that we called “liquid geometry”. The idea was that the Kryptonian technology allowed little metallic beads to be suspended in air and take on 3-dimensional shapes by massing together. The Kryptonians used this technology to create displays and interfaces for their machines, space ships, and robots. The History of Krypton sequence featured this display technology being used to help educate Kal-El about where he came from. Figuring out what the images should look like stylistically was a little bit of a challenge. Zack pointed us to Greco-Roman bas-reliefs and a few other references from Soviet propaganda posters and WPA era murals and sculptures. A bas-relief at the Rockefeller Center was particularly helpful in helping us figure out how to make the shapes and figures both bold and stylized while still being legible in one metallic tone.

How did you create the Black Zero ship?
The Black Zero was based on a few illustrations and a rough model we received from Alex McDowell’s department. We used references as divergent as crustaceans and hot rods to help fill in the details. About 1/3rd of the ship’s bridge and some of the other rooms were partial set pieces on a green screen stage – we extended the rest digitally.
Can you tell us more about the aerial battles choreography?
We went through a few iterations with that sequence, and originally it was a bit longer, but the meat of it stayed in the film. The great thing about the aerial battle is that it allows you to see several different places in Krypton. We go from the top of the Council Chamber tower, dive down through the rock ribbons into the belly of the city, stop at the Genesis Chamber, have a look inside, and then come out the other end dodging hostile fire, weaving between giant colliding airships, soar out over the Kryptonian Wilderness, and finally stop at the House of El. It’s really the only look you get at a lot of Krypton, and I think it helps you put everything else that happens there in context.

How did you handle so many elements to animate?
From an animation standpoint, our work was pretty straightforward. We had a few creatures and robots that we had to figure out in terms of how they move and what they can do, but there actually weren’t too many of them. We were usually dealing with less than two dozen animated assets. Of course, when it came to making the screens for all the robots and ships, that’s another story. We developed a whole system for simulating the liquid geo beads on top of basic shape animations that drove the Kryptonian displays.




What was the biggest challenge on this project and how did you achieve it?
The biggest challenge was the History of Krypton sequence, both artistically and technically. We managed to get through it by working hard to nail down the look and the visual beats early on in the show, and then it was a bit of brute force to push all those billions of beads through the pipeline.
Was there a shot or a sequence that prevented you from sleep?
We had a few sleepless nights getting the History of Krypton sequence out the door, but for the most part it wasn’t too bad. We really enjoyed the work and had a good time on the show.
What do you keep from this experience?
It was a real pleasure working with Zack and DJ, and I hope we get the opportunity again.
How long have you worked on this film?
We spent about a year and four months on it.
How many shots have you done?
We completed 607 final shots.
What was the size of your team?
We had about 500 artists who worked on the film over the course of that time.
What is your next project?
I’m currently working on DAWN OF THE PLANET OF THE APES, which is just wrapping up photography in New Orleans right now.

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Old 08-12-2013, 10:59 PM   #82
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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Can't see how people can be tired of the "bat god" if we haven't once seen him on the big screen. If anything is tired is the lack thereof. Besides there is nothing godly about him in (say) the arkham games.

I fear people paint to hyperbolic a picture of uber bats. The character is still very much human enough to encounter trouble from his entire rogues gallery issue to issue. The reason for me that the Bruce Wayne will never be able to be replaced by his various protege's (even his two sons) is as Amanda Waller said, "that magnificent mind of his" among other things.

All that being said, I think these producers would be hard pressed to stage this film with something too far removed from the master strategist. And I don't Snyder has it in him to not film good clear fight scenes. Looks like circumstance alone is going to give me what I want hahahahahaha.

Well... I am a person... and I am tired of BATGOD. Of course, I have read the comics and seen the every animated version ect. So, yeah, even if we have yet to see that version in live action I am tired of it. Like I said, to me he is ideally "BatMaster". He's a man. He has significant limitations. Significant. Limitations that when you put him in a mix with other DC heroes always seem to be brushed aside in tidal waves of narrative contrivance and PIS. This doesn't come from some bias against Batman. I love Batman. But when I keep hearing the usual "Batman is superior because he's REAL" arguments (Uslan himself said that) or that his appeal is his "humanity and mortality", well it gets frustrating because that does not seem to be how he has been presented in comics or across varying media in a long, long time. Does that mean I want the Nolan version? It was fine, but he was no BatMaster.

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Old 08-13-2013, 12:38 AM   #83
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This is honestly hilarious but also a little bit sad and pathetic.



Just watched the GOTG footage and it seems Marvel have (again) pulled of this absurd world. It looked great!

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Old 08-13-2013, 04:49 AM   #84
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

One hypothetical topic:

If people have the ability to imagine an "alternative reality" (that ability is a power among just a few people), I will bring you something interesting to fill your brains. Imagine you were at comic con by the time BvS was presented.

BUT.....

"What if" it was something else that Goyer & Snyder should be working on, another hero alongside Superman, a completely different team-up.
How would you here at this board have reacted if:
Would the audience still have cheered if:

The MOS sequel actually was Superman vs Wonder Woman (or whatever title you prefer)???

Just think about it. "What if..."?

It could be a way for Warner Brothers to give us a live action WW without taking a risk with a solo film. The popularity of Supes will draw enough people to make it successful.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:15 AM   #85
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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Well... I am a person... and I am tired of BATGOD. Of course, I have read the comics and seen the every animated version ect. So, yeah, even if we have yet to see that version in live action I am tired of it. Like I said, to me he is ideally "BatMaster". He's a man. He has significant limitations. Significant. Limitations that when you put him in a mix with other DC heroes always seem to be brushed aside in tidal waves of narrative contrivance and PIS. This doesn't come from some bias against Batman. I love Batman. But when I keep hearing the usual "Batman is superior because he's REAL" arguments (Uslan himself said that) or that his appeal is his "humanity and mortality", well it gets frustrating because that does not seem to be how he has been presented in comics or across varying media in a long, long time. Does that mean I want the Nolan version? It was fine, but he was no BatMaster.
You're describing the bat god. People just get wrapped up in hyperbole.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:20 AM   #86
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

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This is honestly hilarious but also a little bit sad and pathetic.



Just watched the GOTG footage and it seems Marvel have (again) pulled of this absurd world. It looked great!
Dead on. WB is pathetic.

Disney/Marvel is showing so much apt right now. They are hiring great talent. Really putting in a lot of care and consideration and planning stuff out. They're basically showing WB how to do it. And WB is responding with making Snyder and Goyer the ****ing architects of the cinematic DCU.


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Old 08-13-2013, 08:49 AM   #87
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^ Better Snoyer than most of WB's other hired hands

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:54 AM   #88
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Dead on. WB is pathetic.

Disney/Marvel is showing so much apt right now. They are hiring great talent. Really putting in a lot of care and consideration and planning stuff out. They're basically showing WB how to do it. And WB is responding with making Snyder and Goyer the ****ing architects of the cinematic DCU.

Is it confirmed Snyder will direct and Goyer write JL?

WF is a set-up to launching Batman flicks and I doubt Snyder will direct the new Batman franchise.

Flash and WW are in the works but again from different people.

I am guessing (hoping) that WF will be Snyder's only foray into the DC universe and others will take over with Batman, Flash, WW and JL. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:56 AM   #89
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What if MOS and its sequel are one of the BETTER installments of the DcU?

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:02 AM   #90
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Is it confirmed Snyder will direct and Goyer write JL?

WF is a set-up to launching Batman flicks and I doubt Snyder will direct the new Batman franchise.

Flash and WW are in the works but again from different people.

I am guessing (hoping) that WF will be Snyder's only foray into the DC universe and others will take over with Batman, Flash, WW and JL. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.
Im guessing that Snyder/Goyer are getting this intro 'zero-year-esque' trilogy: MOS, WF, JL.

If it takes off, we may get solo franchises from the others depending on their reception: Wonder Woman, Flash, and Batman and Superman helmed by new directors.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:09 AM   #91
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Im guessing that Snyder/Goyer are getting this intro 'zero-year-esque' trilogy: MOS, WF, JL.

If it takes off, we may get solo franchises from the others, including Superman and Batman helmed by new directors.
That could be though Snyder apparently was expecting, if not an MOS trilogy, at least a follow-up sequel. Based on his comments.

That puts all the pressure on WF and you'd think WB would not rush it as they are. Why do thy have to have a CBM in 2015? Or why not go for an XMAS release?

They are busy trying to write a script it seems. And do so quickly as this was an unexpected turn.

Scripts can throw projects into delays and I hope WB has issues with the script and it takes long to do something they like - long enough that the film has to be delayed to 2016.

WB has to get this right or the house of cards crumbles.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:14 AM   #92
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Is it confirmed Snyder will direct and Goyer write JL?

WF is a set-up to launching Batman flicks and I doubt Snyder will direct the new Batman franchise.

Flash and WW are in the works but again from different people.

I am guessing (hoping) that WF will be Snyder's only foray into the DC universe and others will take over with Batman, Flash, WW and JL. Maybe wishful thinking on my part.
Yep it's been confirmed and they have evens signed contracts.

Story By: Snyder & Goyer
Screenplay By: Goyer
Directed By: Snyder

The Nolans have been relegated to a token Executive producer credit. They are not involved at all.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:16 AM   #93
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Dead on. WB is pathetic.

Disney/Marvel is showing so much apt right now. They are hiring great talent. Really putting in a lot of care and consideration and planning stuff out. They're basically showing WB how to do it. And WB is responding with making Snyder and Goyer the ****ing architects of the cinematic DCU.

So far Snyder/Goyer(and nolan) have had more success than Marvel at the same point.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:19 AM   #94
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Yep it's been confirmed and they have evens signed contracts.

Story By: Snyder & Goyer
Screenplay By: Goyer
Directed By: Snyder

The Nolans have been relegated to a token Executive producer credit. They are not involved at all.
Course it depends on how WF does. WB thinks Batman guarantees success for the film but they thought MOS would do a billion so there is a disconnect at the studio.

AV2 looks to be awesome with Downey returning and all. Star Wars will be huge. WF will be sandwiched between those two. It had damn well be a near great CBM if it hopes not to get crushed between AV2 and SW.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:21 AM   #95
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This is honestly hilarious but also a little bit sad and pathetic.



Just watched the GOTG footage and it seems Marvel have (again) pulled of this absurd world. It looked great!
Sadly, that is pretty spot on.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:24 AM   #96
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Course it depends on how WF does. WB thinks Batman guarantees success for the film but they thought MOS would do a billion so there is a disconnect at the studio.

AV2 looks to be awesome with Downey returning and all. Star Wars will be huge. WF will be sandwiched between those two. It had damn well be a near great CBM if it hopes not to get crushed between AV2 and SW.
Don't forget the new Bond which is coming out in 2015.

Skyfall easily beat TDKR both in terms of critical acclaim, general prestige and box office earnings despite having none of the fanboy hysteria associated with it.

Add in Hobbit 3 as well. And you have 4 massive blockbusters, all pretty much guaranteed a billion at the box office and good reviews into the market.

And suddenly WF is very alone in this world. Right out of the gate WB landed with a badly reviewed and under performing MOS.

They really have to pull up their socks if they are to compete with the marketplace out there.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:25 AM   #97
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Yep it's been confirmed and they have evens signed contracts.

Story By: Snyder & Goyer
Screenplay By: Goyer
Directed By: Snyder

The Nolans have been relegated to a token Executive producer credit. They are not involved at all.
Somehow, adding a third credit to the screenplay would ease 90 percent of my fears

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:25 AM   #98
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

I'm not trying to fuel speculation or spread doom and gloom, but my uninformed opinion is that MoS2 is practically dead in the water. That's not to say it won't be made but the pre-production seems to be a nightmare. Snyder and Goyer probably had talked extensively of what to do with MoS2, then during the week of Comic-Con WB told them that MoS2 would be a WF movie instead.

Just seems like a difficult situation to be in, and given how hard Snyder had to fight to keep certain elements of Watchmen intact I wonder how he feels about all of this. Certainly admitting that where MoS2 goes is up to WB/DC and not him is not a statement of confidence. Snyder seems like he's pretty disappointed with this.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:26 AM   #99
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

^ Yeah, it would probably show in the final product. Though I think he'd bring to life Batman pretty well, and I mostly like his Superman so far.


"Look … completely hypothetically, I feel like you need to get Superman a little further down the road, I think, before you can do a Justice League movie."

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:26 AM   #100
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Default Re: All Things Superman and Batman: An Open Discussion - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFlamingCoco View Post
Somehow, adding a third credit to the screenplay would ease 90 percent of my fears
You mean second. Snyder isn't going to write a word. Just the synopsis or else he would get screenplay credit too.

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