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View Poll Results: Which is better?
Spider-Man 2 20 23.26%
The Dark Knight 66 76.74%
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:31 PM   #126
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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Originally Posted by Red Mask View Post
You and every other person who's lived a few more years than others. But we're supposed to leave our disbelief at the door. That memory condition in Memento isn't possible, anymore than the one in 50 First Dates. You just go with the B.S. because you're trying to escape reality.

Can't speak to Memento or 50FD since I haven't seen them but in regards to TP and TDK: suspension of disbelief has to be EARNED. It comes from crafting a well made story that doesn't break it's own tone/rules with outlandish(for the IP they are presenting, that is) crap. They both fail miserably in that regard(Joker in God-mode in TDK and the out of no-where magic xerox machine in TP). Both require the film to indulge in plot convenience of the highest order and on top of that both come off as smugly thinking they're actually clever for doing so. That's what gets my gall the most. A dumb movie that has no illusions that it's dumb I can still enjoy and not be insulted by but a dumb movie that thinks it's the smartest kid in the class? Hell no.

I love to escape reality in a good film. I just don't see why I should be giving out mulligans when I've been given no good reason to do so.

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Old 10-23-2013, 05:01 PM   #127
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If only Nolan kept those movies realistic. Like, say a teenager just walks into a research facility and happens to get bitten by a radioactive spider. Then, he can shoot webs out of his hand, gain super strength and walk up walls, all while looking perfectly human and going about his daily life. That sort of thing happens all the time. Well grounded in medicine, genetics and science. Pot, meet kettle.

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Old 10-23-2013, 10:56 PM   #128
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

Clearly you are clueless as to what I was talking about.

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Old 10-24-2013, 08:36 AM   #129
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

I can't vote on this. It's like picking between children - your bright and friendly one and your borderline sociopathic child - but children none-the-less. They are both flawed, yet stand as benchmarks in modern comic book cinema.

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Clearly you are clueless as to what I was talking about.
Indeed.

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Old 10-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #130
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Kedrell, the post wasn't directed at you, though I can certainly see why you would think that it was. Your double standards are breathtaking. You see what you're looking for, and back it with only subjective reasons.

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Old 10-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #131
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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Dramatised.
It tip toes between tragic and pathetic. A guy like that doesn't need an enabler. He needs help.

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The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
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Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 10-24-2013, 04:29 PM   #132
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Can't speak to Memento or 50FD since I haven't seen them but in regards to TP and TDK: suspension of disbelief has to be EARNED. It comes from crafting a well made story that doesn't break it's own tone/rules with outlandish(for the IP they are presenting, that is) crap. They both fail miserably in that regard(Joker in God-mode in TDK and the out of no-where magic xerox machine in TP). Both require the film to indulge in plot convenience of the highest order and on top of that both come off as smugly thinking they're actually clever for doing so. That's what gets my gall the most. A dumb movie that has no illusions that it's dumb I can still enjoy and not be insulted by but a dumb movie that thinks it's the smartest kid in the class? Hell no.

I love to escape reality in a good film. I just don't see why I should be giving out mulligans when I've been given no good reason to do so.
Those two twists aren't equally untimed and unbelievable. In the Prestige, the machine was a result of Angler's obsession to push his act beyond Borden's. While's Borden's simple use of a twin lead to tragic loss, there comes another comparison to Angler's multiple sacrifices of himself where he questions which was the true Angler. It's heavy handed for a revenge drama but it was paced better than The Dark Knight.

Nolan's films have men who are driven by an obsession. Unfortunately there is never a safety net or a saving grace. So in the end the protagonist is always left with his journey unresolved.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
even with bare hands.

Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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Old 10-25-2013, 02:37 AM   #133
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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NI never really got into Spider-man, even as a kid. It's weird that he can walk on walls with gloves on, but he doesn't deliver a paralyzing bite to animals and suck out their innards.

You get the point of a superhero, right? Not a horror character?

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If only Nolan kept those movies realistic. Like, say a teenager just walks into a research facility and happens to get bitten by a radioactive spider. Then, he can shoot webs out of his hand, gain super strength and walk up walls, all while looking perfectly human and going about his daily life. That sort of thing happens all the time. Well grounded in medicine, genetics and science. Pot, meet kettle.
It looks like you direct this comment of yours toward kedrell
I can understand some of his frustration, the interrogation scene gives a semi-invincible Joker, not very realistic
Raimi's Spider-Man basks in its fantasy element, it's the kid with issues not pretending to be smarter than he is

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Old 10-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #134
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I'd argue that Nolan's decision with The Prestige wasn't out of nowhere magic. It's simply an element taken from the New Wave of science fiction. Works in this genre feature the conventions of classic sci-fi, but throws out the indepth explanations of the devices in favor of a more character driven narrative. A focus on how the conventions affect character development and relationships. Except The Prestige has less drug use and promiscuity than more of your New Wave.

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I always finish TDK very angry.
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Old 10-25-2013, 03:57 PM   #135
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

The Joker was not a god, he was a criminal mastermind who did have flaws.

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Old 10-25-2013, 03:58 PM   #136
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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The Joker was not a god, he was a criminal mastermind who did have flaws.
What flaws did you notice in the film?

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I always finish TDK very angry.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:04 PM   #137
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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What flaws did you notice in the film?
The very key thing that lead to his defeat. He had the wrong idea about the nature of people. He planned for those people in the boats to blow each other up but in the end they didn't.

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Old 10-25-2013, 04:14 PM   #138
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Good point. Thanks.

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I always finish TDK very angry.
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Old 10-25-2013, 04:38 PM   #139
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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The very key thing that lead to his defeat. He had the wrong idea about the nature of people. He planned for those people in the boats to blow each other up but in the end they didn't.
It is a good point, and coherent within the fiction (although I think in reality, he got the exact nature of man, but TDK's writers decided to lie about it).

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Old 10-25-2013, 05:00 PM   #140
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It is a good point, and coherent within the fiction (although I think in reality, he got the exact nature of man, but TDK's writers decided to lie about it).
Unless we're talking about Comic Book Movie I'm sure the vast majority of the population are overall good.

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Old 10-26-2013, 07:46 AM   #141
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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Those two twists aren't equally untimed and unbelievable. In the Prestige, the machine was a result of Angler's obsession to push his act beyond Borden's. While's Borden's simple use of a twin lead to tragic loss, there comes another comparison to Angler's multiple sacrifices of himself where he questions which was the true Angler. It's heavy handed for a revenge drama but it was paced better than The Dark Knight.

Nolan's films have men who are driven by an obsession. Unfortunately there is never a safety net or a saving grace. So in the end the protagonist is always left with his journey unresolved.
No, the machine was a wild goose chase that Bale sent Jackman on yet low and behold....there actually WAS a magic xerox machine. <cough>bull****!<cough> That's gotta be the biggest coincidence in the entire damn universe. Or maybe the film makers just think the audience are morons.

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Old 10-26-2013, 10:06 AM   #142
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No, the machine was a wild goose chase that Bale sent Jackman on yet low and behold....there actually WAS a magic xerox machine. <cough>bull****!<cough> That's gotta be the biggest coincidence in the entire damn universe. Or maybe the film makers just think the audience are morons.
Or you should be placing the blame for that one on the author of the book it's adapted from?

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Old 10-26-2013, 10:59 AM   #143
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Unless we're talking about Comic Book Movie I'm sure the vast majority of the population are overall good.
Oh yes. I mean, I bought it.

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Old 10-26-2013, 11:05 AM   #144
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I think the idea they were going for was that it was a direly unfortunate turn of fate that when Angier went looking for an actual miracle, he found one. However, the tragic twist of this "lucky break" is obscured by the constant deception.

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Old 10-26-2013, 01:02 PM   #145
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No, the machine was a wild goose chase that Bale sent Jackman on yet low and behold....there actually WAS a magic xerox machine. <cough>bull****!<cough> That's gotta be the biggest coincidence in the entire damn universe. Or maybe the film makers just think the audience are morons.
The rumors of the machine had to come from somewhere. No smoke without fire.

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I always finish TDK very angry.
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Old 10-26-2013, 01:52 PM   #146
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Or you should be placing the blame for that one on the author of the book it's adapted from?
If you are a film maker adapting a book and the story you're adapting does something dumb then you should change it. Movies and books are different mediums(though if it went down in the book just as it did in the movie then it's just as bad there) and changing things happens all the time. I'm not giving Nolan a pass just because of that. At best I'll spread the blame to whoever wrote the book as well.

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Old 10-26-2013, 01:54 PM   #147
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The rumors of the machine had to come from somewhere. No smoke without fire.

That's thin. Like tissue paper thin, IMO.

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Old 10-26-2013, 01:57 PM   #148
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Default Re: TDK vs SM2

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I think the idea they were going for was that it was a direly unfortunate turn of fate that when Angier went looking for an actual miracle, he found one. However, the tragic twist of this "lucky break" is obscured by the constant deception.

He wasn't looking for a miracle. Just a better way to one-up Bale's character.

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Old 10-26-2013, 02:46 PM   #149
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That's thin. Like tissue paper thin, IMO.
Which part?

Edit: I agree with you about the filmmaker's responsibility when it comes to adapting what may or may not work. In defense of the author's style, it's reminiscent of the New Wave sci-fi that was more focused on characters and their development than that of the futuristic machines (or aliens, or whatever conventions of traditional science fiction happen to be used).

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I always finish TDK very angry.
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Old 10-26-2013, 04:21 PM   #150
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No, the machine was a wild goose chase that Bale sent Jackman on yet low and behold....there actually WAS a magic xerox machine. <cough>bull****!<cough> That's gotta be the biggest coincidence in the entire damn universe. Or maybe the film makers just think the audience are morons.
I think it was an ironic twist because it still involved Tesla. The man's genius is legendary, so who better to produce a real magical machine than the guy who also invented an earthquake machine? So in the long term Angler's obsession did lead him to his goal.

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The swordsmanship's first achievement is the unity of man and sword. Once this unity is attained even a blade of grass can be a weapon.

The second achievement is when the sword exists in one's heart. When absent from one's hand one can strike an enemy at paces
even with bare hands.

Swordsmanship's ultimate achievement is the absence of the sword in both hand and heart. The swordsman is at peace with the rest of the world. He vows not to kill.
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