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Old 08-13-2013, 12:05 AM   #51
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I think that, when the opportunity arises, DC should just make their own film studio like Marvel did. They need filmmakers who actually want to bring these characters to life on the big screen, not more "auteurs" presenting a "revisionist perspective on comic-book iconography". Warner Bros. is just not working out for them anymore.

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Old 08-13-2013, 12:07 AM   #52
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When the knowledge of how Warner Bros may end up wasting such a great pairing and talent in Cavil and Adams from their respective roles....


Maybe Superman is cursed?lol

I mean you got to admit folks, the character has yet to have a film that's been both critically AND financially successful since Superman 2, which was like 30 years ago, and the character has not had a direct sequel since the mid 80's.

Sometimes it feels like Batman will be the only DC character to ever have it good since his "golden days" (ala the Nolan franchise) was made when the Avengers wasn't an issue, along with how his franchise was spearheaded by someone like Chris Nolan that had a great vision for the character from beginning to end.

If the rumors are true, it feels like Snyder and Goyer are nothing more than sellouts at this point and you'd think that if really wanted to make a great superman film that he'd do his best under these circumstances if it's true that he's eyeballing the likes of Bloom for the Batman role, then he's just buried himself further into an already deep hole.
I don't think Snyder is a sellout. He wanted to do a Superman trilogy but WB , apparently disappointed with MOS's critical and financial results, said no. Do a WF. Snyder went public letting his unhappiness about this be known. Its a risk for a director to do that. So no he didn't sell out.

He has a family and a career and how many of us would walk away from a job because we disagree with what our boss asks us to do?

I guess the lesson is be careful what you wish for. Fans wanted DC to win the rights suit and they did. Had they not Superman would have been on its way to Disney/Marvel. A much better place it now seems in hindsight as it looks like Superman will be relegated to supporting roles in team films going forward.

Yeah, that curse?! LOL.


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Old 08-13-2013, 12:13 AM   #53
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The more I think about it, the more I think it was a cleaver and interesting move from a story standpoint to do a WF or BVS film next. Yes, there are fans who are pessimistic , but to be fair, a lot that has to do with them caring about the character and what direction it goes.

Sure, there are trolls here and there, but the majority of what i've heard is more of a real concern about whether the project is a good idea or whether they should have gone a pure MOS trilogy route.

I disagree with a lot of them of course. I personally wanted something different from this franchise than just a trilogy for the sake of doing a trilogy. From the moment MOS was announced I wanted Snyder and co to shake things up and think outside the box which is what they did for most of MOS imo.

Alot of fans were upset when they did that, but I thought it was really bold and I enjoyed it. After MOS I did have the thought of , "Well, You just had Zod nearly destroy the world, what comes next?"A straight sequel with Lex as the villain and maybe another baddie would have okay and could have been good , but i'm not that sure , aside from him being a CEO, we really would have gotten something drastically different that we haven't seen done in one form or another on Smallville or Lois and Clark. Aside from that, we've had 5 Superman films in which Lex was the baddie in one form or another anyway.


So the idea of MOS 2 having Clark really clash with someone who's his polar opposite and in alot ways his equal, while potentially learning from this foe/friend , while at the same time putting arguably the two biggest Heroes and onscreen together for the first time in 80 odd years is thrilling. At the same time you can still have Lex be the puppet master that we all want to see , without him basically being exposed at the end and being defeated.

I , live every other fan out there had my own ideas of what I thought a sequel could be , but the story they're going to tell, has the potential of being so much better than anything I could have come up with. I see the potential in a very interesting and compelling story . When I also see and here your average non comic fan excited and interested at the prospect of a team up film, its hard to look at it like its the worst thing in the world.

Now of course , the film's gotta have something to say, and it has to be good. If the film is awful and its clear they really did a half job, then I can get on board with those who think that it was a misstep.

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Old 08-13-2013, 12:44 AM   #54
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The more I think about it, the more I think it was a cleaver and interesting move from a story standpoint to do a WF or BVS film next. Yes, there are fans who are pessimistic , but to be fair, a lot that has to do with them caring about the character and what direction it goes.

Sure, there are trolls here and there, but the majority of what i've heard is more of a real concern about whether the project is a good idea or whether they should have gone a pure MOS trilogy route.

I disagree with a lot of them of course. I personally wanted something different from this franchise than just a trilogy for the sake of doing a trilogy. From the moment MOS was announced I wanted Snyder and co to shake things up and think outside the box which is what they did for most of MOS imo.

Alot of fans were upset when they did that, but I thought it was really bold and I enjoyed it. After MOS I did have the thought of , "Well, You just had Zod nearly destroy the world, what comes next?"A straight sequel with Lex as the villain and maybe another baddie would have okay and could have been good , but i'm not that sure , aside from him being a CEO, we really would have gotten something drastically different that we haven't seen done in one form or another on Smallville or Lois and Clark. Aside from that, we've had 5 Superman films in which Lex was the baddie in one form or another anyway.


So the idea of MOS 2 having Clark really clash with someone who's his polar opposite and in alot ways his equal, while potentially learning from this foe/friend , while at the same time putting arguably the two biggest Heroes and onscreen together for the first time in 80 odd years is thrilling. At the same time you can still have Lex be the puppet master that we all want to see , without him basically being exposed at the end and being defeated.

I , live every other fan out there had my own ideas of what I thought a sequel could be , but the story they're going to tell, has the potential of being so much better than anything I could have come up with. I see the potential in a very interesting and compelling story . When I also see and here your average non comic fan excited and interested at the prospect of a team up film, its hard to look at it like its the worst thing in the world.

Now of course , the film's gotta have something to say, and it has to be good. If the film is awful and its clear they really did a half job, then I can get on board with those who think that it was a misstep.
The film DOES have something to say.
"We are going to put two of the biggest badass Superhero mofos together in one film,They are going to try to take each other down,And, we are going to make"$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ "
There's your message.


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Old 08-13-2013, 01:11 AM   #55
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I don't think Snyder is a sellout. He wanted to do a Superman trilogy but WB , apparently disappointed with MOS's critical and financial results, said no. Do a WF. Snyder went public letting his unhappiness about this be known. Its a risk for a director to do that. So no he didn't sell out.

He has a family and a career and how many of us would walk away from a job because we disagree with what our boss asks us to do?

I guess the lesson is be careful what you wish for. Fans wanted DC to win the rights suit and they did. Had they not Superman would have been on its way to Disney/Marvel. A much better place it now seems in hindsight as it looks like Superman will be relegated to supporting roles in team films going forward.

Yeah, that curse?! LOL.
if this film does bad on a critical and financial stance, it could hurt his career in the long run of things.

Plus, if a person's heart isn't in the project, then it'll obviously show in the final result

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Old 08-13-2013, 01:11 AM   #56
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The film DOES have something to say.
"We are going to put two of the biggest badass Superhero mofos together in one film,They are going to try to take each other down,And, we are going to make"$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ "
There's your message.
Lol that's true. The studios make these films to make money so that doesn't surprise me. They didn't make TDK trilogy out of the kindness of their hearts , so any fan who thinks that Disney or any other studio funds these films and produce these films without that being a major objective, they're kidding themselves.

Marvel is more successful at getting their projects off the ground than WB and has happened to please fans in the way they did it, but don't mistake that as them putting money as a low priority .

That said , making a fortune and having a good story don't have to be separate qualities of a film. If they tell a good story , I personally don't care how much it makes.

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Old 08-13-2013, 04:36 AM   #57
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Let's start a suicide pact, I got my cyanide capsule ready.

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Save one for me please!!
No... let's direct our anger towards the people responsible!

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Old 08-13-2013, 04:41 AM   #58
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Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhh.....

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Old 08-13-2013, 05:06 AM   #59
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You chimed in on my post about "Superman film vs Good film." You said that the ending to that film was not one you liked nor the only example of a triumphant ending to a Superman story.
Then I misread your intention, as I thought you meant 'Superman film (STM) vs Good film (MOS)', as though MOS' ending made it a good film, whereas STM's ending made it a popular Superman story, but not neccesarily a good film.

And I was only pointing out that STM's example of an ending to a Superman story is not the only popular way of ending one, and not the only example of how you could do a triumphant ending successfully. It is not a question of one or the other.

In fact, I see the ending of STM as very flawed, and I believe if a film trying to pull something like that in this day and age it would be judged by an entirely different standard and absolutely shot down.

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Ergo my point about opinion. STM has been a celebrated achievement into the mythos since it's release. Start to finish. With a 92% RT score I would think the ending part of the story was "liked"
It has two writing awards in the adapted category.

The discussion was about a "Good film" vs a "Good Superman film"
Instead of using my opinion I was deferring to the general consensus of the so called critical masses of fanboys and film critics alike. According to these people MoS is a superman film with a mixed reception. STM is a superman film with an overwhelmingly warm reception and has been a milestone of genre and american cinema for 35 years.
One look at the RT scores speaks to it's reception. For many years the Donner verse has been brought up here and celebrated there for this that and the next thing. The one that defines superman for a generation. At this point in time, MOS isn't that.

STM being a well received Superman film isn't just my opinion, it's based on a form of consensus. Ergo why I brought up the line of discussion: Is a film the consensus sees as a good superman film the same as one these same groups see as a "good film"
Are the conventions the same, cause if they are one would think it's ending would be a technical deal breaker or sorts.

I point to STM being celebrated as a great superman film but with a failed ending that serves to drive home the point that superman will always save the day no matter how few choices the bad guy gives him. Deus Exing isn't good form but in a Superman film, as long as it serves the theme of absolute heroism and measured power, the film will be celebrated regardless. Man of steel has an ending of a very different nature and this less optimistic thing is a point of contention among many discussions. A super guy facing a tough choice with a plot that follows through on that choice. Contrasting that with making the choice of reversing the clock...still, one of these two endings is being touted a many as "not superman"

The question I suppose is, which ending to a film is weaker? I already know the answer to which one is a better ending to a superman film.

What's the point though, Superman kills in the sequel and that films and it's ending has been more warmly received. Forget I asked.
Which ending to a film is weaker? STM for me.

STM is a product of it's time, and is judged as such. Like I said above, that kind of ending would absolutely NOT fly nowadays IMO.

However, THAT is not what people are taking about when asking for a more triumphant ending, and wishing MOS' ending wasn't so depressing.

I haven't heard anyone saying 'I wish the ending was more like that awesome ending to STM'. So I just don't really see the relevance.

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Lots of reviews(positive and negative) speak on MOS' ending. Reading many of the STM reviews, the ending(conflict resolution that is) is almost never brought up. Sadly there are no forum databases I can pull up to show what the GA was talking about back when that film came out as I can now with MOS, but I do wonder if that films ending was as dissected and or lambasted as this ones has been during it's theatrical run. Were fan boys more off put by that films contrivance or the ending to MoS?
It's hard to say, because I think the internet has changed the way that fans recieve things. Not to mention how much more critical we are, because we expect a higher standard.

Back then, fans were probably just in awe of the film being made at all.

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To be fair that might very well be your intent, however I think you are more concerned with them portraying the version of the character you are more enamored with.

In regards to triumphant endings, you went on to suggest that in order to do so they, "Look at pretty much every Superman story in the comics... They are all right there."
I'm confused, When you say pretty much every, you must mean the stories you personally don't think suck. It's quite the situation we are in...

You seemingly dismiss any and everything superman as bad or not worth noting depending on whether it fits your personal collection of celebration. Then go on to suggest the producers simply look at the breadth of the superman canon for inspiration.

If someone cites one of the many instances superman has done something you suggest he doesn't do, you go on to suggest it's not just worth ignoring but that it's also an instance of failed writing. That's all well and good when it comes to elaborating on why this piece in question wasn't for you but it's confusing the matter on whether this MOS film is a good film or a failure. Superman or otherwise.
Again, I was not discussing whether MOS was a technically good film.

When I get involved in discussions about whether MOS was a technically good film, I look at it from a film critic stand point and become objective. I look at the clunky dialogue and the bad editing and the under developed character relationships and the badly realised plots and themes... and I judge it as a bad film.

When I want to talk about why I don't like it as a SUPERMAN fan, I discuss how much I disliked the ending, how much I disliked the way they portrayed Pa Kent and his relationship with Clark, and how badly I felt Lois was handled in the second half of the film.

I don't know why you seem to believe that the only discussions with any merit are the completely unbiased ones that only concern the GA.

We're all fans here. We're allowed to talk about what we like or don't like.

But in terms of picking and choosing what I like, I don't think your seeing my point at all.

When I said 'pretty much every', i'm even thinking of stories that I don't like (Superman: Earth One for example). The 'pretty much every' is to account for the very very very small amount of stories that end with Superman killing.

My point is only that there is a wide range of endings to Superman stories, so so many different ways of doing it. There's not just this idea of one cliched type of ending you have, as though there is only that or having him kill.

And it's okay to feel some stories do not hold as much weight or influence as others.

I mean, I wouldn't take Supergirl (vol. 4) #79 (the issue with Pink Kryptonite) and use it as the building blocks for how to portray the character. It's a funny, one time story that doesn't actually hold any weight in terms of canon.

But if they did go that route, the same people yelling 'he killed in the comics' could equally yell 'he was turned gay by Pink Kryptonite in the comics'.

Lots of weird OOC stuff has happened in the comics. Some of it several times over the years. But that doesn't make it RIGHT to use it in the films. It doesn't become some kind of PROOF that negates the opinion of fans of didn't like it happening in the films.

That's all i'm saying.

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"The problem," Pa used to say, "is people. As far back as we go, we've always had problems with sharing. Seems everyone's too busy holding on to what they've got to care how their neighbors are doing."


*\S/T*

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:12 AM   #60
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Clap clap hopefuldreamer. You tell em! I hope you continue to post here alot. I know it must be hard having MOS break your heart and all. Plus who knows where this horror ride is going now.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:26 AM   #61
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if this film does bad on a critical and financial stance, it could hurt his career in the long run of things.

Plus, if a person's heart isn't in the project, then it'll obviously show in the final result
Snyder is a professional and will do his best but his heart not being in it isn't going to help.

Snyder I surmise was hoping for a trilogy all his own. Like Nolan had with Batman. For sure WF was not on his radar as per his comments about this.

Now Snyder gets a team-up Bats/Supes film and that may be it for him. Superman will be in JL but Snyder may not be directing it and after that if Superman is used only for JL sequels Snyder is potentially out in the cold after WF.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:27 AM   #62
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This is the reason why I am upset about this movie. I was looking forward to at least a sequel to MOS before seeing a team up movie. I mean they could have at least given us that. I am a Superman fan first and foremost so this really comes a shock when MOS did everything they wanted from a Superman movie. I loved MOS and I loved Returns and even Returns was going to get a sequel as long as the ending tied into a Justice League/Team Up picture (the original Justice League movie pitch before JL:M) to which Nolan said no too and with the juice he had from TDK they didn't want to upset him. I think Snyder should have held his ground on this one but you never know the whole story. I am not oppose to a Superman Batman movie I just think it could have waited till after the sequel.

I understand why Batman fans praise this move because without this movie Batman would not be seen for a while but IMO that would be a good thing. Get Superman, Flash, Green Lantern off the ground first then bring Batman back. That's why I think most people or at least IMO most Superman fans are disappointed. A sequel could have been amazing.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:29 AM   #63
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Maybe there'll be a day in the distant future where DC fans will live through a period where their favorite comic book characters are treated right on films and where our properties reign supreme over the globe.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:35 AM   #64
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The more I think about it, the more I think it was a cleaver and interesting move from a story standpoint to do a WF or BVS film next. Yes, there are fans who are pessimistic , but to be fair, a lot that has to do with them caring about the character and what direction it goes.

Sure, there are trolls here and there, but the majority of what i've heard is more of a real concern about whether the project is a good idea or whether they should have gone a pure MOS trilogy route.

I disagree with a lot of them of course. I personally wanted something different from this franchise than just a trilogy for the sake of doing a trilogy. From the moment MOS was announced I wanted Snyder and co to shake things up and think outside the box which is what they did for most of MOS imo.

Alot of fans were upset when they did that, but I thought it was really bold and I enjoyed it. After MOS I did have the thought of , "Well, You just had Zod nearly destroy the world, what comes next?"A straight sequel with Lex as the villain and maybe another baddie would have okay and could have been good , but i'm not that sure , aside from him being a CEO, we really would have gotten something drastically different that we haven't seen done in one form or another on Smallville or Lois and Clark. Aside from that, we've had 5 Superman films in which Lex was the baddie in one form or another anyway.


So the idea of MOS 2 having Clark really clash with someone who's his polar opposite and in alot ways his equal, while potentially learning from this foe/friend , while at the same time putting arguably the two biggest Heroes and onscreen together for the first time in 80 odd years is thrilling. At the same time you can still have Lex be the puppet master that we all want to see , without him basically being exposed at the end and being defeated.

I , live every other fan out there had my own ideas of what I thought a sequel could be , but the story they're going to tell, has the potential of being so much better than anything I could have come up with. I see the potential in a very interesting and compelling story . When I also see and here your average non comic fan excited and interested at the prospect of a team up film, its hard to look at it like its the worst thing in the world.

Now of course , the film's gotta have something to say, and it has to be good. If the film is awful and its clear they really did a half job, then I can get on board with those who think that it was a misstep.
Well said Frodo. The big picture is often beyond the sight of some fans. It's an easy gamble for us to make considering we aren't the one's spending a fortune on the projects.

If MOS2 was announced and it simply had lex and kryptonite again, there might have been a great deal more hardcores happy around here. I think WB is tired of just making superman films for the hardcores. The profits from this film(whether people want to acknowledge them or not) bring lessons with them. What other people also fail to realize is for all the legitimate negative criticism, there is just as much positive for the very same elements. Fans will simply champion what they will.

I'm often amazed by how unobjective fans can be, but it comes with the territory. For example there are many people that hate the idea of superman being beaten by a man, being out smarted and sharing screen time...unless it's Luthor then it's a given. I for one think having the 7th superman film feature a batman in need of a relaunch is a fresh new exciting idea, even if and especially it follows the second most successful cbm launch ever(MOS). I'm glad it's not a simple silly money grab cameo either.

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Old 08-13-2013, 07:49 AM   #65
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This is the reason why I am upset about this movie. I was looking forward to at least a sequel to MOS before seeing a team up movie. I mean they could have at least given us that. I am a Superman fan first and foremost so this really comes a shock when MOS did everything they wanted from a Superman movie. I loved MOS and I loved Returns and even Returns was going to get a sequel as long as the ending tied into a Justice League/Team Up picture (the original Justice League movie pitch before JL:M) to which Nolan said no too and with the juice he had from TDK they didn't want to upset him. I think Snyder should have held his ground on this one but you never know the whole story. I am not oppose to a Superman Batman movie I just think it could have waited till after the sequel.
I agree but for MOS doing what WB wanted it to. Clearly it didn't or there would be a stand-alone sequel. WB was expecting way too much - Robinov is the poster boy for that.

After WF then JL I guess.

Where does that leave the Superman franchise or will Superman only be used in JL team films going forward? That is my worry.

Solo film focus on Batman, Flash and GL with Supes squeezed out.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:02 AM   #66
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I agree but for MOS doing what WB wanted it to. Clearly it didn't or there would be a stand-alone sequel. WB was expecting way too much - Robinov is the poster boy for that.

After WF then JL I guess.

Where does that leave the Superman franchise or will Superman only be used in JL team films going forward? That is my worry.

Solo film focus on Batman, Flash and GL with Supes squeezed out.
Agreed, I get the fact that they needed something big to go up against Avengers and Star wars but I don't like the fact that we (Superman fans) lose out on a much needed sequel because of it. Now if like suggested before that Batman's role may be like The Joker in TDK (meaning in screen time) and the focus is mostly on Superman then I will be okay. But if not I will see it but it will always leave me with this what if feeling. As someone already said DC comics really should form their own studio free from the WB much like Marvel.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:32 AM   #67
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Agreed, I get the fact that they needed something big to go up against Avengers and Star wars but I don't like the fact that we (Superman fans) lose out on a much needed sequel because of it. Now if like suggested before that Batman's role may be like The Joker in TDK (meaning in screen time) and the focus is mostly on Superman then I will be okay. But if not I will see it but it will always leave me with this what if feeling. As someone already said DC comics really should form their own studio free from the WB much like Marvel.
Agree.

If the next film is intended to launch a new solo Batman franchise I expect Batman will have close to equal screen time with Superman.

Poor Cavill - if it comes that he co-stars with the Batman actor I think that will impact his salary for the film. If his final stint as Supes follows WF in JL his salary is what? Being just one of 6 co-stars? Basically this change of direction probably means he makes a lot less from his 3 picture deal than he had expected to make.

Won't be surprised if they drop the pretense this is an MOS sequrl as the film's release gets closer. Its a team-up film and even now articles refer to an MOS sequel at the start and then many shift and refer to it as the Batman/Superman film.

Not expecting a stand-alone Supes film from WB anytime soon if ever - the rights go public around 2030 (I think, I hope) and then any studio can make a Superman film. Fingers crossed Marvel will step up and do it. Still that's a long wait.

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Old 08-13-2013, 08:37 AM   #68
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Agreed, I get the fact that they needed something big to go up against Avengers and Star wars but I don't like the fact that we (Superman fans) lose out on a much needed sequel because of it. Now if like suggested before that Batman's role may be like The Joker in TDK (meaning in screen time) and the focus is mostly on Superman then I will be okay. But if not I will see it but it will always leave me with this what if feeling. As someone already said DC comics really should form their own studio free from the WB much like Marvel.
If anything Batman's role should be like Harry Osbourne's in Spider-Man 2. Peripheral but memorable, and complicates the plot and character relationships.

Man, MOS2 COULD have been the Spider-Man 2 of the 21st century. But I don't think that could happen if it's a team-up film.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:10 AM   #69
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Then I misread your intention, as I thought you meant 'Superman film (STM) vs Good film (MOS)', as though MOS' ending made it a good film, whereas STM's ending made it a popular Superman story, but not neccesarily a good film.

And I was only pointing out that STM's example of an ending to a Superman story is not the only popular way of ending one, and not the only example of how you could do a triumphant ending successfully. It is not a question of one or the other.
Sadly that's exactly what I meant. STM for years has been seen as an ideal superman movie by the masses, (it was only after the realty that was SR that some realizations were made...) Even in modern reviews there is still this sort of talk. The film having a flawed ending doesn't stop that. The simple idea here is that much of the critical talk out of MOS was and is about non triumphant ending(something that is sort of a requirement for this material apparently), they actually point this out.

When they walk out of STM, these same numbers of people don't bring up any such criticism about the ending(again see the reviews), which implies it's more successful execution. Thus the conclusion that though it's a failure of story telling, it's a greater success in the realm of the material. I never said anything about it being one or the other, however I'm comparing the reception of the only two large examples we've gotten in this media and amongst this audience(critics and GA alike). So, sure, one or the other it seems critics prefer one.

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Which ending to a film is weaker? STM for me.
We can agree on something. If only more people saw it that way, however superman being forced to "lose" is the greater crime to others. This one tragic element in closing is a bigger deal breaker for many than time space deus exing. When compared.

I wonder what sort of Rant Mark Waid would have set out on coming out of STM had he been there. Especially that ending which as a writer should have bore a particular weight on him. I don't think he would have rallied against the film in it's premise personally. I think at the end of the day this ending sucks more to him. I shouldn't speak for him though.
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STM is a product of it's time, and is judged as such. Like I said above, that kind of ending would absolutely NOT fly nowadays IMO.

However, THAT is not what people are taking about when asking for a more triumphant ending, and wishing MOS' ending wasn't so depressing.

I haven't heard anyone saying 'I wish the ending was more like that awesome ending to STM'. So I just don't really see the relevance.
The Godfather and raging bull of are of the same time. However they are traditionally judged by modern film standards were as some of these other things are championed as of their time. I personally don't subscribe. Strangely enough even that won't stop the MOS < STM comparisons from flying about.

I agree, not everyone is asking for a deus ex ending, however how many of these people who are critical of mos' ending would rank it under the triumphant ending of STM. I'm sure if there is a third option these people might just pick that one but like I said, of the two. STM's ending has a tradition of being seen as conducive a superman film that has been celebrated for 35 years. Whereas MOS has an ending that has been met with mixed reaction.
...of the two.

Superman killing vs Superman not killing(but messing with traditional writing conventions), of the two, one has given rise to more criticism.
A film ending vs a superman film ending, triumphancy seems to give one the edge among detractors...he was saving lives after all.

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It's hard to say, because I think the internet has changed the way that fans recieve things. Not to mention how much more critical we are, because we expect a higher standard.

Back then, fans were probably just in awe of the film being made at all.
That doesn't account for the comparisons between the films. I mean this very debate went down on that Kevin Smith pod cast. The mal content wouldn't stop comparing the two films. I think his kind speak volumes on the matter, as he has the age and clairvoyance to see full picture in context.

As for fanboys, I agree the internet has not only bread cynicism but a few other things.
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Again, I was not discussing whether MOS was a technically good film.
When I get involved in discussions about whether MOS was a technically good film, I look at it from a film critic stand point and become objective. I look at the clunky dialogue and the bad editing and the under developed character relationships and the badly realised plots and themes... and I judge it as a bad film.

When I want to talk about why I don't like it as a SUPERMAN fan, I discuss how much I disliked the ending, how much I disliked the way they portrayed Pa Kent and his relationship with Clark, and how badly I felt Lois was handled in the second half of the film.
That's a good distinction to make, sadly that hasn't been the way of things with most people. Just how many professional reviews bring up these things you describe as fan points? The lines have become blurred with this film. Who isn't a fanboy of something that has been part of american cinema for close to 40 years.
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I don't know why you seem to believe that the only discussions with any merit are the completely unbiased ones that only concern the GA.

We're all fans here. We're allowed to talk about what we like or don't like.
Never said anything against that.
Again, it was in direct relation to that particular point you stepped in on. For example: If I say Batman and Robin is seen as failure of a batman film in relation to TDK, all subjective opinions aside it's a safe bet I'm concerning the GA. When you jump in and say "but I didn't like the ending to TDK", I would also respond in the fashion of it's not just your opinion on the quality of these films in question here.
I never meant to dismiss your opinion on the matter but in the context of that particular discussion(that again, I don't think I was having with you in particular), the point needed to be made. I wasn't talking about your opinion, I wasn't talking about mine either!

If I didn't believe in fans sharing their opinions around here, I'd leave.
I hope that much is clear.
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But in terms of picking and choosing what I like, I don't think your seeing my point at all.

When I said 'pretty much every', i'm even thinking of stories that I don't like (Superman: Earth One for example). The 'pretty much every' is to account for the very very very small amount of stories that end with Superman killing.

My point is only that there is a wide range of endings to Superman stories, so so many different ways of doing it. There's not just this idea of one cliched type of ending you have, as though there is only that or having him kill.

And it's okay to feel some stories do not hold as much weight or influence as others.

I mean, I wouldn't take Supergirl (vol. 4) #79 (the issue with Pink Kryptonite) and use it as the building blocks for how to portray the character. It's a funny, one time story that doesn't actually hold any weight in terms of canon.

But if they did go that route, the same people yelling 'he killed in the comics' could equally yell 'he was turned gay by Pink Kryptonite in the comics'.

Lots of weird OOC stuff has happened in the comics. Some of it several times over the years. But that doesn't make it RIGHT to use it in the films. It doesn't become some kind of PROOF that negates the opinion of fans of didn't like it happening in the films.

That's all i'm saying.
It's a good point.

However we are talking about story tropes in this example. All films have endings, or rather conflict resolutions. When looking at the issue of say good vs evil in this superhero genre, the matter of whether killing or not killing comes up very often. The matter itself has come up often enough with superman that it's actively defining him and redefining him every few years. Sorry but this goes beyond an instance of pink kryptonite occuring in on one if his b-list sibling books(though gay rights might be worth exploring in these films).

Superman killing in several of his books and media throughout the years doesn't negate any criticism by people that don't like it, you're right. However, anyone that say's it's not part of the character and hasn't been for a long time, simply isn't looking. At the very least people should take into consideration the the legitimate stories in which killing as been of consequence and view the film in that regard. The films are about him and what's of consequence to who he is. I don't care about him saving cats from trees, I am concerned with what killing means to him.

Batman doesn't kill, he's killed in maybe one odd story, that doesn't mean killing in not a big(huge) part of the character. A movie in which he does happen to kill and it weighs on him in some form going forward, has it's merits. This has nothing to do with fans not liking the story in which he did pull out a gun and kill, this has to do with what killing actually means to his mythos. You can explore that in several ways, one of which is to engage in a story about how committing the act tastes to the character and it's effects.

Killing is a bigger part of superman than it is Ironman and because of that I think it worth exploring in a modern superman film. This is a matter of concept and thematic exploration, not simply Ironman can kill in his movie and superman can't. It's the idea of what happens when a character who vowes to never kill has to, or inversely(as has been said by the producers), someone who has to kill and vowes never to do so again.
Killing is a huge part of superman and I for one am glad these films are addressing the issue. It's about time one of these superhero films did(and not just pretend to like TDK trilogy).

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:13 AM   #70
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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If anything Batman's role should be like Harry Osbourne's in Spider-Man 2. Peripheral but memorable, and complicates the plot and character relationships.

Man, MOS2 COULD have been the Spider-Man 2 of the 21st century. But I don't think that could happen if it's a team-up film.
Why stop at just spiderman 2, when you could be something else, better even.

I'm just saying people need to start using their imaginations. I mean first class was a solid magneto origin film, it had professor X and a whole lot of other people too. Imagination.

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Old 08-13-2013, 09:23 AM   #71
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This seems like a rehash of all the rumors floating around so I don't buy all of it but I definitely felt like Snyder and Goyer were blindsided by this team-up thing. I mean, a few months ago, it does seem like their only plans was for a straight-up MoS sequel and they were even saying that it's too early to pair up Superman with the JL or whatever.

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Old 08-13-2013, 10:06 AM   #72
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

I mean, they were probably definitely surprised by WB's mandate but I definitely dont believe that Snyder nor goyer are upset by this by any means. Think about it, these two guys have the gig of a lifetime, Goyer is getting paid to essentially write a BATMAN/SUPERMAN fanfic and Snyder gets to direct it. I'm sure many many people would love to have that gig. I don't believe for a second that either of those two are even the slightest bit upset at this, just...probably a little surprised.

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Old 08-13-2013, 10:15 AM   #73
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I mean, they were probably definitely surprised by WB's mandate but I definitely dont believe that Snyder nor goyer are upset by this by any means. Think about it, these two guys have the gig of a lifetime, Goyer is getting paid to essentially write a BATMAN/SUPERMAN fanfic and Snyder gets to direct it. I'm sure many many people would love to have that gig. I don't believe for a second that either of those two are even the slightest bit upset at this, just...probably a little surprised.
I agree its a great gig. Given MOS's not doing a billion and the reviews I was surprised they'd have Snyder do a JL, but I guess WB is blaming Superman and not Snyder and company for the MOS results.

Unfortunately, if WF underperforms WB's expectations, it'll again be Superman, not Batman, that gets the blame.


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Old 08-13-2013, 10:37 AM   #74
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

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I agree its a great gig. Given MOS's not doing a billion and the reviews I was surprised they'd have Snyder do a JL, but I guess WB is blaming Superman and not Snyder and company for the MOS results.
You guess? Every single post of yours is nonsense. You can't believe that Snyder was givin' the reign to JL? Why is everybody missing the point? Justice League was the be all end all since day 1 and Man of Steel was to set that universe. It's been WIDELY known and said numerous times that MOS was the benchmark to JL and crossovers to the DCU.

It's time NOW to start the cross-overs for DC. Stop trying to blame MOS as a failure as to why you aren't getting your standalone sequel.

Superman is appearing in another movie and the sequel will focus more on his universe and his story is still going to be developed further. I think that's great news. WB found their Superman to go head to head with the rest of their superhero franchise. I'm starting to think that fanboys around the globe have been spoiled to death.

Thanks to Superman Returns, Superman was put on the backburner for some time. Now with the success's of MOS and the MOS sequel featuring Batman, fans still want to get their red-underoos in a twist. My outlook? MORE SUPERMAN, please, and we're getting just that.

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Unfortunately, if WF underperforms WB's expectations, it'll again be Superman, not Batman, that gets the blame.
And make no mistake, if WF does well, you'll be on here tooting the horn how Cavill didn't impress you and it was because of Batman that the movie did well and will crap on Snyder and MOS's Superman as to why Superman failed to "stick out." MOS haters such as yourself are too predictable.

2 years from now, we'll see how it will go and I betchya that you will be on here reminiscing on what should of been and how Cavill's Superman was overshadowed by the Bat because of the film doing well. You'll never give Snyder, Goyer or Cavill any credit if WF does well, just as you won't with MOS's success's. It's already begun, already blaming Superman if WF doesn't do well.

Your posts are a lose-lose. You hedge your bets. You simply have an agenda with this new MOS Superman and there's nothing this new franchise can to do step out of that shadow with its haters.

Too predictable.

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Old 08-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #75
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Default Re: Is anyone else not excited about Superman and Batman? I feel nothing but dread. -

For the record, Tobias, even if you got your standalone MOS sequel, you were already starting. "This is what needs change. This is what needs to be done. This is my letter to WB, etc etc." The groundwork was being laid already to hate on Snyder and MOS2 as a standalone. We didn't see you for weeks after Superman/Batman was announced. You regrouped. Now, already looking ahead if WF bombs, you're blaming Superman.

I hope everybody can see right through this dudes posts as much as I do.

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